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 Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane
Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,867
Loc: ★
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 Re: Suggestions Regarding Which Species to Hybridize  [Re: Boogieman47]
#23822016 - 11/11/16 05:58 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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It's not that simple, Pasty's done a bit of reading into the practicality and price. Might look up posts from him about snake venom.
Edited by Inocuole (11/11/16 07:49 PM)
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bodhisatta  
Smurf real estate agent
Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,891
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Suggestions Regarding Which Species to Hybridize [Re: Inocuole]
#23822295 - 11/11/16 08:39 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm sure it's filtered sterile rather than heat treatment to get sterilized.
Alan R knows how to search the genetic database to see which two species are most compatible for crossing
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Boogieman47
Let's boogie
Registered: 03/05/16
Posts: 9,712
Loc: Under your bed
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Re: Suggestions Regarding Which Species to Hybridize [Re: bodhisatta]
#23822542 - 11/11/16 10:17 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I was just goofin about the pc but some of the shit ive seen is like a special cloth while others are on a glass funnel... http://m.wikihow.com/Safely-Extract-and-Store-Snake-Venom
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bodhisatta
Smurf real estate agent
Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,891
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Suggestions Regarding Which Species to Hybridize [Re: Boogieman47]
#23822558 - 11/11/16 10:21 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Sure that's how they extract.
Once you have enough extract you push it through a sterile filter
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Boogieman47
Let's boogie
Registered: 03/05/16
Posts: 9,712
Loc: Under your bed
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Re: Suggestions Regarding Which Species to Hybridize [Re: bodhisatta]
#23822570 - 11/11/16 10:25 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Ya i been searching and nothing comes up about sterilizing it i need to find thr cirrect key words
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inski
Cortinariologist
Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 5,776
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Re: Suggestions Regarding Which Species to Hybridize [Re: cronicr] 1
#23824629 - 11/12/16 12:29 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
cronicr said:
I have all the above inski ...grab me the venom let's do it lol.
That's great
I don't think venom is necessary though, I believe it's application is useful when trying to create intergeneric hybrids not interspecific hybrids.
I would start by generating diluted spore solutions using the dilution to extinction method then proceed by inoculating initial dishes with a single drop, spread the drop over the surface of the agar to further separate the spores, as soon as germination is evident isolate as usual in order to isolate monokaryotic cultures.
Once you have a set number of monokaryons isolated from each species start the mating compatibility tests.
A simple example would be to isolate 50 monokaryons from P. weraroa and 50 monokaryons from P. subaeruginosa, now proceed by trying to mate them, starting with the above 100 dishes you would need 2,500 dishes to test them all against each other, if you isolate 100 monokaryons of each species you would need 10,000 dishes to test them against each other.
A microscope is required to make sure you have monokaryons to begin with and then to check for clamp connections to prove that mating has occurred and you have successfully produced dikaryons.
Because these are woodlovers this would be a very long term experiment and I suspect it could take up to three or four years to get any real results regarding fruiting potential.
I know that mating compatibility tests have already been done with Psilocybe species from Section Cyanescens and there were some dikaryons successfully produced, I don't think fruiting potential was tested.
Maybe a quicker experiment could be Panaeolopsis spp x Panaeolus spp.
I'm interested but I'm not sure I have the time.
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inski
Cortinariologist
Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 5,776
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Re: Suggestions Regarding Which Species to Hybridize [Re: inski]
#23827244 - 11/12/16 08:53 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm interested to learn if the below Psilocybe 'subsecotioides' (name coined by me some years ago), not a published species but certainly belonging in Section Cyanescens is possibly a natural hybrid between the secotioid P. weraroa and the agaricoid P. subaeruginosa.
P. 'subsecotioides'
 
This fungus produces extremely dense caespitose clusters, the flesh of these individual mushrooms is extremely dense and the weight is phenomenal, DNA sequences of these three are extremely close.
P. weraroa
P. subaeruginosa
If so is it possible to create interesting hybrids by crossing P. weraroa with other species from Section Cyanescens.
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 cronicr
Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle 
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Re: Suggestions Regarding Which Species to Hybridize [Re: inski]
#23827250 - 11/12/16 08:54 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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lol i just put Psilocybe 'subsecotioides to agar yesterday
--------------------
   It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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Raven44
Entry not permitted to muggles
Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 1,970
Loc: My sovereign reality bubble
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Re: Suggestions Regarding Which Species to Hybridize [Re: inski]
#23827265 - 11/12/16 08:59 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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The books "the fungi" along with "plants from test tubes an intro to micropropogation" will get u going on the path of completing what inski mentions.
It's very possible and is being done. I've spoken with a guy who has done it succefully and obtained target traits with one out of the many fusants.
Somatic cell nuclear fusion still occurs under a peg solution with fungi, as it does work plants...
The process isnt too complicated I imagine. I've got those books on my list atm.
Funny this comes up again, Alan just the other day said it's not possible. Not to be rude but he is wrong and I am pretty sure of this.
From what I've been told and understand, it's not about mono cultures and testing compatibility... but placing a large number of single (protoplasts I believe
...??) Protoplast cells in a container.
U obtain single cells by dissolving the matter down to single cells with a weak acid solution which would be described in one of the two above mentioned books. This is my guess at least. Something similar I imagine. That's how it's done with plants. U can breed with out pollen... by fusing cells...
Once u have both target species in a container together and single cells of each... u centrifuge them in a peg solution. The high number of cells present will result in several fusants. Each one can be fruited out separately and u check for desired traits.
Something like this don't quote me,best to read the books lol
Edited by Raven44 (11/12/16 09:13 PM)
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inski
Cortinariologist
Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 5,776
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Re: Suggestions Regarding Which Species to Hybridize [Re: cronicr]
#23827352 - 11/12/16 09:24 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I have that book, 'Plants From Test Tubes' it's very good if you are interested in TC.
I believe Alan is referring to intergeneric hybrids, it's probably possible with genera that are closely related but less likely with genera that are distant.
The type of hybrid discussed in this thread is interspecific and certainly possible and I don't believe any special procedures like protoplast fusion or using venom are necessary, just mating compatibility testing which any of us can pursue with some basic agar techniques, light microscopy, isolating monokaryons from the chosen closely related species and testing against each other for successful mating and the formation of dikaryons, from there one just needs to create suitable outdoor woodchip beds and keep everything meticulously labeled, as I said earlier it would be a very long term experiment so probably only for the very patient mycologist with lots of time and agar dishes.
Quote:
cronicr said:
lol i just put Psilocybe 'subsecotioides to agar yesterday
Nice one cron, good luck, here's some of my cultures from that species, it produces very beautiful rhizomorphic mycelium.
  
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Raven44
Entry not permitted to muggles
Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 1,970
Loc: My sovereign reality bubble
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Re: Suggestions Regarding Which Species to Hybridize [Re: inski]
#23827421 - 11/12/16 09:45 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Ok..... go ahead and act like u know it all but I'm trying to enlighten u and others.
But I'm sitting here telling u I have spoken to a man who has done it. It does involve protoplast fusion.
Read the book the fungi.
Plants from test tubes is the intro. Easy stuff. The fungi has the details.
U go the hundreds of Petris route, ima go the route I was told Def works.
And yes the process I'm attempting to poorly describe is easily done at home by anyone of us.
Funny how no one on the shroomery seems to recognize this as fact except rr. I bet rr by now has some hybrids he doesn't even think about mentioning here lol. For this reason.
I don't think venom is used. But there is a better way to obtain ur fusants than by using Petris as u say inksi. Then yes, simply testing for compatibility and ultimately testing outdoors.
Edited by Raven44 (11/12/16 09:50 PM)
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spacechildo
proletarians rise up
Registered: 01/24/13
Posts: 19,243
Loc: Babylon
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
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Re: Suggestions Regarding Which Species to Hybridize [Re: Raven44]
#23827432 - 11/12/16 09:50 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Raven44
Entry not permitted to muggles
Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 1,970
Loc: My sovereign reality bubble
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Re: Suggestions Regarding Which Species to Hybridize [Re: spacechildo]
#23827436 - 11/12/16 09:53 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yeah it's funny what people limit themselves to.
Again for anyone who likes to advance their knowledge and isn't so quick to doubt something simply cause it's so foreign to them they have zero idea what ur speaking of...
The book "the fungi".
Have fun here everyone good luck. 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatic_fusion
http://what-when-how.com/molecular-biology/protoplast-fusion-molecular-biology/
Google somatic fusion fungi. Read and weep
Edited by Raven44 (11/12/16 10:03 PM)
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inski
Cortinariologist
Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 5,776
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Re: Suggestions Regarding Which Species to Hybridize [Re: Raven44]
#23827501 - 11/12/16 10:23 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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That's fine, you can do as you please and no, I'm not acting as if I know it all as you are with your enlightenment comment above.
All I know is that mating compatibility testing has been done for many years by mycologists and crossing species does not require chemicals or protoplast fusion.
In Botany intergeneric hybrids are quite rare and in mycology also, I suspect protoplast fusion is required.
We are not trying to cross different genera but rather different species within a genus so the methods you describe are not needed because it can happen naturally and there is proof of compatibility among species belonging in Psilocybe Sect. Cyanescens.
You can try to force something to happen unnaturally and if I choose to I'll try to help nature along naturally, I'm only really interested in finding out if certain Fungi I have observed in nature are interspecific hybrids and if it's possible to create interesting hybrids by following this hypothetical natural hybridisation.
I think you have interpreted my posts wrongly, I never doubted what you had to say, all I said was that it's unlikely that there would be much success with creating intergeneric hybrids between distantly related genera but more likely possible with closely related genera.
...remember, this thread was not supposed to be about crossing genera with protoplast fusion but rather the op was interested in producing a hybrid with high yields per square foot by crossing monokaryons (mating compatibility testing).
I have shared my knowledge regarding what the op was interested in and have also shared information about certain species which I believe could possibly produce the desirable traits the op is looking for.
You have told us we don't know what we are talking about and then proceeded to share information which is not relevant to our conversation or the original post.
Good luck
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Raven44
Entry not permitted to muggles
Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 1,970
Loc: My sovereign reality bubble
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Re: Suggestions Regarding Which Species to Hybridize [Re: inski]
#23827523 - 11/12/16 10:35 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Lol... my posts weren't relevant to the OP or the convo? Hmmmmm... that's odd.
Now ur trying to act like u weren't downsizing my input to the point of being negligible. Nice try.
What op hopes to attempt can be done more than one way.
Genetic engineering isn't understood by everyone tho.
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inski
Cortinariologist
Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 5,776
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Re: Suggestions Regarding Which Species to Hybridize [Re: Raven44]
#23827538 - 11/12/16 10:47 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yes, that's right they weren't, he wanted to cross species to create a high yielding hybrid via mating compatibility or crossing monokaryons from different species within a single genera, your input involved crossing genera with protoplast fusion, two different experiments.
Oh and yes I am downsizing your input because it's not what the op is interested in in this particular thread.
Good day kind sir
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spacechildo
proletarians rise up
Registered: 01/24/13
Posts: 19,243
Loc: Babylon
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
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Re: Suggestions Regarding Which Species to Hybridize [Re: inski]
#23828273 - 11/13/16 08:41 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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bodhisatta
Smurf real estate agent
Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,891
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Suggestions Regarding Which Species to Hybridize [Re: Raven44]
#23828386 - 11/13/16 09:26 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Anyone who wants the fungi as a PDF send me a PM.
Maybe you should tell Alan what to try that he is missing
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