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Re: Can psilocin be produced in a LC ala claviceps? [Re: drake89]
    #23841452 - 11/17/16 11:50 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I trusted a $5 hepa the problem is the line after the filter has to be sterile or you're blowing sterile air into a dirty tube


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Re: Can psilocin be produced in a LC ala claviceps? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #23841746 - 11/17/16 01:21 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Just like a regular jar lid/filter except instead of stuffing the filter in the hole you will stick some tubing through the hole, glue the tubing to the lid, and then stuff the tubing with polyfill, that way the whole thing gets sterilized and no nasties should get in. I've yet to test it like I said, if I do this I will at least make another one that I did not inoculate just so I can be sure the filter is actually filtering properly.

Raven, a 55 gallon drum is analogous to starting off your mushroom hobby by building a 10x10ft outdoor greenhouse, kind of overkill. I think a 7g/55 gallon yield is pretty poor, but even so 7 grams is a ton of doses so even if you get poor yield it would be worthwhile to do a single liter. I'm convinced right off that if you were to double the carbohydrates alone you would double your yield, so that's 250mg/gallon. Far from great, but that's a good 20-25 doses at least, much more comparable to standard size monotub. I did not mention it earlier, but cost and materials aside if you are extracting pure psilocin then extracting it from an aqueous solution is much preferably to fruit bodies or mycilium, half the work is practically already done for you.


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Re: Can psilocin be produced in a LC ala claviceps? [Re: krypto2000]
    #23842149 - 11/17/16 03:13 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
This is what I was referring to:

Quote:

The beauty of a soft agar medium is that it ensures that the growing mycelium doesn’t sink to the bottom of the cultivation container where it can not breathe and stops growing.

Problems of liquid cultures

Lack of oxygen is a major problem in liquid cultures. Paul Stamets devotes a full chapter on liquid cultures in his cultivation bible Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms. In there mycelia are grown out on petri dishes of solid agar, fragmented in an Eberbach blender, incubated in Erlenmeyer flasks and aerated by use of a magnetic stirbar and a stirplate which is put at 100-200 rpm. All this use of expensive equipment and the extremely contamination-sensitive practice of culture stirring becomes obsolete when one only adds some agar gelling agent to the medium, so that the mycelium stays at the surface.







Stamets was growing LC to inoculate grains. He was not producing psilocybin. I have read plenty of posts about it, in the link I gave you will see them saying how harvest timing is critical with liquid, but not with soft agar.

I have read that the "truffle brothers" sclerotia production has the capacity for growing 18 tons per year, another farm procare had the same capacity (truffle brothers say 18,000 tons but I am pretty sure they mean kilos). Growing was and is legal in many countries yet I have never heard of any using LC for production. In the Netherlands dried mushrooms were supposedly illegal, yet they were openly on sale there many years ago, so selling dried "mushroom powder" would have been a viable option -if it was worthwhile.

You cannot visually tell if LC is contaminated or not, at least with the soft agar you can have a better guess, with stones it is far more obvious.

There is also the question if the LC will even be active, many reckon it will not be, or have far less than you might hope for.

If you do a search for threads where I mention the word "keg" you might find my ideas for bulk LC with simple & cheap equipment.


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Re: Can psilocin be produced in a LC ala claviceps? [Re: blackout]
    #23842569 - 11/17/16 04:57 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Those guys who make the atlantis truffles or w/e they are in amsterdam use spawn bags inoculated with LC. I saw a documentary or mini doc on it some years back.

Otherwise what you say is true, or likely so in the case of speculation. I would imagine that most LC in fact would *not* be active, which is why it took 55 gallons just to get 7 grams. However the same is true of claviceps/ergot and yet industrially we see yields over over 2% which is twice that found in nature in the sclerotia. I'm not here because I think it's easy though, I'm here because I think it's possible. I believe the hardest part will by far be finding a strain that produces in LC as well as dialing in the nutrients and evironmental conditions to favor alkaloid production.

As to why you do not see psilocin sold in amsterdam in the past I think comes down to economics, knowledge, and by extension feasibility. Mushroom growing itself is a rather niche hobby and there is not much competition in that market, legal or not. So to the first point there is simply no demand because by and large people do not know what they don't have. It's the same reason we could produce hash oil 30 years ago to the same standards of today yet you're just now seeing it commercially and by extension it's grossly increased in popularity.

Now on top of the economics you have to first not only know that you can viably extract it but you also have to know that you can do so not only at minimal cost to you, but minimal extra costs to the consumer. As a new product people will likely be wary first off and if it costs 2x as much as mushrooms it's likely to not have a wide adoption. If it's only 20% more or even the same price then people will likely prefer it over whole mushrooms. This also ties in to why I want to make a LC.

Extracting 1g of psilocin from 1 liter of liquid is far more feasible and worthwhile than extracting it from 100g of mushrooms. I mean I would probably need a good 4 liters or so of water or more to just extract the 100g, not to mention the pain of filtering off all of the mushrooms gunk. With a LC, if it pans out, you are left with a perfect candidate for extraction. It practically begs to be extracted. With mushrooms it's not a difficult extraction, but it's a chore at the very least. I should say that I have only been using extract/crude psilocin since I first successfully did it and I have no desire to ever eat fruit bodies again having ingested it this way, that's my main reason for considering this is not only would it be novel to have but it would potentially save me a lot of time, effort, and solvents in the long run.


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Re: Can psilocin be produced in a LC ala claviceps? [Re: krypto2000]
    #23843142 - 11/17/16 07:19 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

In essence hear we are still talking about extraction from myc, would it not be easier to grow on something that the mycelium can be easily freed from, like corn, then agitate it with sterile water and use the resultant myc laden water to proceed with whatever extraction. I cpuld be way off but i experiance more biomass in less time on my grains than i do in an lc almost every time, to the point that ive mostly stoped with lcs.  Another problem us going to be the extraction , whats the plan there?


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Re: Can psilocin be produced in a LC ala claviceps? [Re: KThunderland]
    #23843312 - 11/17/16 08:12 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

If you're growing it on grain you then have the biosmass + leftover grain to extract from, you might as well just grow mushrooms then. I am wondering just how much biomass there will be in the LC though, if it's comparable to the weight of the mushrooms themselves then you might have to do multiple extractions on the mycilium anyway which would largely defeat the purpose. The extraction itself is not difficult, it's just a basic a/b and then a recrystalization should get you relatively pure psilocin.


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Re: Can psilocin be produced in a LC ala claviceps? [Re: krypto2000]
    #23844226 - 11/18/16 06:06 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

The mycellium could be removed via agitatoin esaily from corn (normally not tye best grain byt it has an advantage here) , either way though the mushroom is still gonna always be the better option just exploring ideas


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Re: Can psilocin be produced in a LC ala claviceps? [Re: KThunderland]
    #23844230 - 11/18/16 06:08 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

A/b wont work its a zwitterion, and alcohol tincture ia the best way with mush goodies, but then ypu have to deal with the water, which is miscible with the everclear thats used. To date i havent found a workable a/b extraction even with vwry very careful ph controls


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Re: Can psilocin be produced in a LC ala claviceps? [Re: KThunderland]
    #23844268 - 11/18/16 06:36 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Being a zwitterion does not mean an a/b will not work, it just means it has an internal salt, but it can still be influenced by ph and form a salt on its freebase. I've done it successfully.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23420498#23420498.


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Re: Can psilocin be produced in a LC ala claviceps? [Re: krypto2000]
    #23844452 - 11/18/16 08:02 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

What kinda yeild are you pulling? Is that yeild worth it wuth the lower content of goodies that would be on the lc? Whats the truck i havent gotten anything close to a good yeild with a/b of shrooms and ive a/b everything lol but it you have a tek taht works then thats always gonna be the better way. Im still here to see where this go to advance the theory but it think even waiting for knots would really boost the end yeild, something that we cant do in an lc. Mind you im not trying in anyway yo shoot down the idea, just trying to think it out from other angles, i like where this is going


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Re: Can psilocin be produced in a LC ala claviceps? [Re: KThunderland]
    #23844584 - 11/18/16 08:57 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

No, I agree, it may not be viable. If the yield is not high enough or if it does not simplify the extraction enough then it wouldn't be worthwhile.

So far I've done the extraction 4 times. The first time I think I failed but I never sampled or tested the end product, it just didn't look like much of anything so I assumed it did not work. The 2nd time I think I had used 5 grams and I don't recall my yield but I would say it was anywhere from 50-100%. I think it was maybe 50mg of a brown syrup/oil. After that I did... 10g? I'm not sure, I think the yield was about the same tho and I got 100mg. The 4th time I did 100g of stumps, aborts, and dirt and I only got 100mg. I think a large part of the loss on the 4th try was wither because I did a poor initial extraction and did not use enough water/GAA or because I dried the organic with MgSO4 which is mildy acidic and held onto a lot of the alkaloids. I used MgSO4 on one of the previous extractions too but I did not use as much. I do KNOW some of this info is wrong, particularly the numbers, but that's as best as I can remember. 5mg of the extract is equal to maybe 0.7-1g of cubes I would say.


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Re: Can psilocin be produced in a LC ala claviceps? [Re: krypto2000]
    #23845300 - 11/18/16 01:56 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

i know one of the truffle farmers in the netherlands, he just uses it to finance his edible mushroom operation.  there's not near as much demand for pschedelic mushrooms as gourmet mushrooms.  I think he gets about 200kg of fresh truffles out of a cargo container and they go for about $200/kg wholesale so it's basically printing money...


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Re: Can psilocin be produced in a LC ala claviceps? [Re: drake89]
    #23846143 - 11/18/16 06:05 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Fun fact lol, a gourmet truffle farmer I spoke to in TN said he made about 250,000 in a yr


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Re: Can psilocin be produced in a LC ala claviceps? [Re: Raven44]
    #23847823 - 11/19/16 09:09 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Raven44 said:
Fun fact lol, a gourmet truffle farmer I spoke to in TN said he made about 250,000 in a yr



He also has had no truffles the last 2 or 3 years due to climate change....more you know!


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Re: Can psilocin be produced in a LC ala claviceps? [Re: drake89]
    #23848280 - 11/19/16 11:30 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I have built some aeration vessels. Syringe filters do seem the best way to go whoever suggested that. I haven't made one that works in full yet, but I've made some first revisions which I later changed, but have not actually built yet. I'm still testing different glues as well, I'm not sure what is best.

Anyway here's the design I've come up with, it's pretty simple and versatile.  Take standard PP lids and drill holes large enough to wedge the narrow tip of the syringe filter through, it should hold snug if you did it right. Put two of these in and glue them in place. One is an inlet, one is an outlet. I've got some ~1inch air stones, some 3/16 inch silicone tubing which will fit on the airstone and on the narrow syringe port. It's not as tight as I would prefer on the syringe filter, but it's tight enough to do the job. Since it just slides on you can exchange it for the appropriate length so you can use these lids with any sized jar.

To power it I have a ~700GPH air pump with a 1/2" barb. The barb is designed to hook up a 1/2" tubing and connect it to a manifold with ~3/16" outlets, which would be idea to use, however the other side of the syringe filters are ~1/2" so I can't do this without adaptors. Instead I will build a manifold from barbed couplers and then connect 1/2" tubing to the inlet of the syringe filter. I've tested it and the variac is not necessary because it takes quite a bit of force to push through these filters and thus I'm thinking my ~700GPH pump is only powerful enough to power 1-3 vessels. I checked online and the pump runs for about ~25$ so it's not too bad if you had to buy it, a ~1700GPH pump is about 60$ which I would purchase instead if I were to start this new. So far the only potential issue that I might run into is I'm unsure what type of plastic makes up the barb on the air stone so it's possible it might decompose when PCing. If it does not work I could always use it without the airstone, but it would be nice to have as it will more efficiently diffuse and oxygenate the water better, while also probably being more gentle for the mycilium. Oh, and this pump is obnoxiously noisy so there is that drawback.


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Re: Can psilocin be produced in a LC ala claviceps? [Re: drake89]
    #23848452 - 11/19/16 12:32 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

drake89 said:
Quote:

Raven44 said:
Fun fact lol, a gourmet truffle farmer I spoke to in TN said he made about 250,000 in a yr



He also has had no truffles the last 2 or 3 years due to climate change....more you know!




False

Last year he told me he made 250,000 from his truffles. Therefore whom I refer to has had truffles as of last year according to their word

Apparently u know someone else

That doesn't quite make sense. Climate change? I'm no truffle farmer but I do imagine the farming part means u create the climate as usual way farming.

Regardless, he has had truffles as of last yr. That's the only year we spoke in fact. Even if he was referring to the prior year which he wasn't that still wouldn't coincide not even close.

He was surely no liar, one of the smartest I've met


Edited by Raven44 (11/19/16 12:40 PM)


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Re: Can psilocin be produced in a LC ala claviceps? [Re: Raven44]
    #23848480 - 11/19/16 12:41 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

You encourage the climate by moving water around, but if you live in a desert you live in a desert. Can't move water if there's no source.


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Re: Can psilocin be produced in a LC ala claviceps? [Re: krypto2000]
    #23848564 - 11/19/16 01:04 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, I don't imagine this guy has any water issues

Sry to derail OP


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Re: Can psilocin be produced in a LC ala claviceps? [Re: krypto2000]
    #23848611 - 11/19/16 01:16 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

blackout said:
Growing was and is legal in many countries yet I have never heard of any using LC for production.





Quote:

krypto2000 said:
Those guys who make the atlantis truffles or w/e they are in amsterdam use spawn bags inoculated with LC. I saw a documentary or mini doc on it some years back.

Otherwise what you say is true, or likely so in the case of speculation.



I did not mean nobody used LC for growing mushrooms or sclerotia. I meant I never heard of anyone using LC directly for the production of psilocybin.

I was saying to have a search for threads of mine containing the word "keg", I give many ideas for liquid culture. In those thread I recommend using stainless steel or brass airstones which can be got in home brew supply stores. Most aquarium ones have plastic  or glue components which might not hold up to heating.

I think some filters will come with air flow limits. I have thin synthetic filters on my lids. I do not think they would keep out contams if air was forced through them at a high enough rate. There are other methods to prefilter air, like bubbling through peroxide.


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Re: Can psilocin be produced in a LC ala claviceps? [Re: blackout]
    #23848658 - 11/19/16 01:27 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I didn't know they aerated beer, I'll check into those if these plastic ones do not hold up. I'm imagining they are some type of PP though based on the color and texture/hardness. Well I also don't *need* an airstone of course. I did just realize that in my test when I determined I could do 1-3 with my air pump I did not consider that it would also have to go back out the other syringe filter so that makes it only able to do 0.5-1.5, kinda lame. The syringe filter will definitely work though as this is more or less what it's designed for (pressurized filtration that is), but I might need a more powerful pump to do more than a quart of liquid. I was hoping to be able to run at least 5-10 pints at a time though as I figure I will have to screen a good 10-100 seperate cultures and combinations of media to get anywhere worthwhile. This is becoming a lot more daunting since I have to pioneer all of this stuff.

edit: Just tested it and I can definitely do 1 jar no problem, so maybe I'm still able to do 1-3. We'll see. I have one unit that is fully working though I don't trust the glue has dried enough to PC yet.

edit: And I just tested both existing vessels. One is not sealed properly, but running both seems to only reduce the flow rate by about 10-20% so I'm sure I can do at least 3 now. Maybe even up to 10, I should be good to go. :thumbup:


Edited by krypto2000 (11/19/16 01:46 PM)


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