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OfflineEnjoywho
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Electoral college * 3
    #23817952 - 11/09/16 11:28 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

This is why I agree with it. I did some math.

The electoral college is used in order to give both low populated states and high populated states a voice in the election. California has the population of the lowest 22 states combined. Why should Cali have so much power? The West has different needs than the mid west, they have a right to have a voice.  Winning the majority in a state gives you the votes. Trump won the popular vote of 30 states. It would be silly to decide the candidate by popular vote just because Cali is very heavily populated and democratic.

I just did the math on our home state of Alaska. Without the electoral college Alaska's voice would only be 1.89% of Cali's. With the electoral college Alaska's voice is 5.45% of Cali's. So as you can see, it isn't as simple as popular vote should win. Different places in the U.S have different needs. The electoral college helps balance out the power of the states.

Getting rid of the electoral college will truly get rid of the voice of all states of 1-2 million people.


--------------------
"I don't give nothin' to nobody, I just pay the cost to do business." - Riley "Young Reezy"-Boondocks

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

"In the days of kings and queens I was a jester."

"And then the great lord created bears... too many bears... shoulda really dialed back on the bears." Squidbillies

"Can you start speaking words instead of your damn filthy lies!"- Louise "Bobs Burgers"


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OnlineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho]
    #23817977 - 11/09/16 11:40 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

well spoken man.

I agree totally even thou i like the popular count cause it just feels simplier.

But yes, the electoral college is much more fair "for the people, by the people".


--------------------
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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Electoral college [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #23817981 - 11/09/16 11:41 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

In a true democracy an electoral college shouldn't even exist. It should be the voice of the popular vote and that's it.


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OfflineThe Mycologist
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Re: Electoral college [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #23817984 - 11/09/16 11:44 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Getting rid of the electoral college would force candidates to fight for votes in every state rather than just the swing ones. An Alaskan persons vote is worth more than other states and thats not right.


--------------------
"That you are here—that life exists, and identity;
That the powerful play goes on, and you will contribute a verse.”
― Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass
:acidfire::tmckenna:


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OfflinePartoftheSource
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Re: Electoral college [Re: The Mycologist]
    #23817991 - 11/09/16 11:47 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

If they got rid of the electoral college wouldn't they just mainly fight for votes in the states with the biggest population? leaving no attention to the smallest states with the least population?


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Invisibleohcrapitsnico
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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho]
    #23818000 - 11/09/16 11:53 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

That's what the senate is for. We are the only country that elects the loser as president.


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OfflineEnjoywho
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Re: Electoral college [Re: Crystal G] * 2
    #23818006 - 11/09/16 11:57 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
In a true democracy an electoral college shouldn't even exist. It should be the voice of the popular vote and that's it.




This is what cracks me up most. We aren't a true democracy. We're a Republic. Am I the only one that paid attention in us government.


--------------------
"I don't give nothin' to nobody, I just pay the cost to do business." - Riley "Young Reezy"-Boondocks

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

"In the days of kings and queens I was a jester."

"And then the great lord created bears... too many bears... shoulda really dialed back on the bears." Squidbillies

"Can you start speaking words instead of your damn filthy lies!"- Louise "Bobs Burgers"


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OfflineEnjoywho
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Re: Electoral college [Re: PartoftheSource]
    #23818012 - 11/10/16 12:00 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

PartoftheSource said:
If they got rid of the electoral college wouldn't they just mainly fight for votes in the states with the biggest population? leaving no attention to the smallest states with the least population?




Pretty much. That's exactly why they wouldn't bother with the Midwest. Why do you think Wisconsin and New Hampshire. A measly 6 and 4 votes respectively. Made up huge talking points.

Small states will lose all there power with the abolishment of the electoral college. That is when I will lose hope in America.


--------------------
"I don't give nothin' to nobody, I just pay the cost to do business." - Riley "Young Reezy"-Boondocks

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

"In the days of kings and queens I was a jester."

"And then the great lord created bears... too many bears... shoulda really dialed back on the bears." Squidbillies

"Can you start speaking words instead of your damn filthy lies!"- Louise "Bobs Burgers"


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Invisibleohcrapitsnico
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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho]
    #23818023 - 11/10/16 12:05 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enjoywho said:
Quote:

PartoftheSource said:
If they got rid of the electoral college wouldn't they just mainly fight for votes in the states with the biggest population? leaving no attention to the smallest states with the least population?




Pretty much. That's exactly why they wouldn't bother with the Midwest. Why do you think Wisconsin and New Hampshire. A measly 6 and 4 votes respectively. Made up huge talking points.

Small states will lose all there power with the abolishment of the electoral college. That is when I will lose hope in America.



No. The problem with the electoral college is that it makes the candidates ignore all the states that reliably vote for one party and focus in on the very few battleground states. So you have a handful of states that get all the attention from the candidates and they hijack the election again and again. And you have proof of that when pretty much everyone ignored Wisconsin and Michigan right up until the end because they were considered irrelevant.

If you made it dependent on popular vote it would open the race everywhere as every vote becomes equal. You would want to get any vote anywhere you could get it making every state up for grabs where you can achieve votes whether that be talking to moderates and independents in swing states or your base in reliably blue/red states. No one is ignored.


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Invisibleohcrapitsnico
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Re: Electoral college [Re: ohcrapitsnico]
    #23818029 - 11/10/16 12:09 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

The electoral college was not created to ensure small states an equal voice it was created to remove the election of the president directly from the hands of the public. The consequence is that any state that has a close margin of support between candidates gets an outsized voice in the election as you see with Florida and North Carolina which are definitely not small states.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Electoral college [Re: PartoftheSource]
    #23818031 - 11/10/16 12:12 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

States are irrelevant if you have a popular vote.

Enjoywho, why the fuck should Alaska get more influence than its population deserves?. When you describe it that way you are describing a rigged system where votes in smaller states are more influential than votes in larger states I don't understand how anyone can justify that. What is wrong with everyone getting a single vote

We have had six presidential elections since 1992, and going by raw votes, democrats won every election except 2004. We now have had two elections in this century where the democrat won the vote and lost the race. This is democracy and its absurd to think its normal or acceptable that second place finishers get to win elections.

And don't think that this doesn't really matter because this could happen to either side, the fact is because large states tend to be democratic and small states republican, it is far more likely for the democrat to lose despite winning than the other way around. There is no way to remove partisan advantages in the electoral college system.

As much as the trump side complained about rigged elections, it is democrats who have really been screwed by the system.


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“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineEnjoywho
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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods]
    #23818034 - 11/10/16 12:15 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

So cities decide what we do. Fuck the Midwest. If we want to do that I say split up the US. Become like the European Union. Because that's a load of shit.

Maybe we all just need a long break from each other. It's to balance power. I say segment the US into sections. Dismantle the main government. Then we can have states rights back.

We have have been a democracy ever. The founding fathers set up a Republic. As true democracy doesn't work.


--------------------
"I don't give nothin' to nobody, I just pay the cost to do business." - Riley "Young Reezy"-Boondocks

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

"In the days of kings and queens I was a jester."

"And then the great lord created bears... too many bears... shoulda really dialed back on the bears." Squidbillies

"Can you start speaking words instead of your damn filthy lies!"- Louise "Bobs Burgers"


Edited by Enjoywho (11/10/16 12:20 AM)


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Invisibleohcrapitsnico
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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho]
    #23818036 - 11/10/16 12:17 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enjoywho said:
So cities decide what we do. Fuck the Midwest. If we want to do that I say split up the US. Become like the European Union. Because that's a load of shit.



That's what you have the senate for. But fuck the majority right? The minority should decide the presidency just like in an oligarchy and banana republic.


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OfflineEnjoywho
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Re: Electoral college [Re: ohcrapitsnico]
    #23818049 - 11/10/16 12:24 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Well 30 states voted against. That's 3/5ths of our land. Well Alaska is the size of 2/3rds of the lower 48.

I will be very disappointed if we get rid of the electoral college. True democracy doesn't work. Even ancient Greece wasn't a true democracy. It was a Republic. It's great on paper. But so is communism.


--------------------
"I don't give nothin' to nobody, I just pay the cost to do business." - Riley "Young Reezy"-Boondocks

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

"In the days of kings and queens I was a jester."

"And then the great lord created bears... too many bears... shoulda really dialed back on the bears." Squidbillies

"Can you start speaking words instead of your damn filthy lies!"- Louise "Bobs Burgers"


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho]
    #23818058 - 11/10/16 12:28 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enjoywho said:
Quote:

PartoftheSource said:
If they got rid of the electoral college wouldn't they just mainly fight for votes in the states with the biggest population? leaving no attention to the smallest states with the least population?




Pretty much. That's exactly why they wouldn't bother with the Midwest. Why do you think Wisconsin and New Hampshire. A measly 6 and 4 votes respectively. Made up huge talking points.

Small states will lose all there power with the abolishment of the electoral college. That is when I will lose hope in America.



The entire country is ignored except for Battleground states in the EC system. How is that better? How does the electoral college benefit Alaska? There probably hasn't been a general election campaign rally in Alaska in the last 50 years.

You cannot design a system that gets everyone some attention. This is re age of instant communication and national news networks. We don't need to force candidates to visit places. Trying to manipulate where campaigning occurs using a contrived voting system is dumb, and considering that the second place finisher has won two elections in the past 16 years override, it is fundamentally unfair.

This is a representative democracy and the president represents all the people in the entire country, and he should be elected by the people not electoral voters were some state's citizens have more influence than elsewhere.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho]
    #23818065 - 11/10/16 12:30 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enjoywho said:
Well 30 states voted against. That's 3/5ths of our land. Well Alaska is the size of 2/3rds of the lower 48.

I will be very disappointed if we get rid of the electoral college. True democracy doesn't work. Even ancient Greece wasn't a true democracy. It was a Republic. It's great on paper. But so is communism.



I just don't get why you think Alaska gets anything out the electoral college. When was the last time a presidential candidate stepped foot in Alaska during the general election? Has it ever happened?


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Invisibleohcrapitsnico
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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho]
    #23818066 - 11/10/16 12:30 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

So now the qualification for how much your vote counts should be how much land you have, why don't we add an income qualification too while we're at it? Seriously I don't understand why you're trying to disenfranchise people.


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OfflineEnjoywho
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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods]
    #23818070 - 11/10/16 12:32 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

All the people? Hillary won by 200 thousand votes. So the president really represents half the people.

It doesn't matter if a candidate steps foot. We get a 4% increase in say. With California which has the most say of all.


--------------------
"I don't give nothin' to nobody, I just pay the cost to do business." - Riley "Young Reezy"-Boondocks

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

"In the days of kings and queens I was a jester."

"And then the great lord created bears... too many bears... shoulda really dialed back on the bears." Squidbillies

"Can you start speaking words instead of your damn filthy lies!"- Louise "Bobs Burgers"


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods]
    #23818074 - 11/10/16 12:33 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

When was the last time there was a campaign stop in New York or California? Thanks to the EC, two of the largest states in the country have been ignored for 20+ years

The fact is the EC makes most of the county irrelevant to the candidates.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineThe Mycologist
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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho]
    #23818080 - 11/10/16 12:34 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

One man one vote.

Right now an Alaskan vote is worth 5x a Floridian vote. That seems like a serious problem with the system to me.


--------------------
"That you are here—that life exists, and identity;
That the powerful play goes on, and you will contribute a verse.”
― Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass
:acidfire::tmckenna:


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho]
    #23818082 - 11/10/16 12:36 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enjoywho said:
All the people? Hillary won by 200 thousand votes. So the president really represents half the people.

It doesn't matter if a candidate steps foot. We get a 4% increase in say. With California which has the most say of all.



Entitled much? Why the fuck is your vote worth more because you live in Alaska? Wow. That's really insane that you think you deserve special treatment. You already get 2 senators despite having fewer people than a medium sized city.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineEnjoywho
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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho]
    #23818089 - 11/10/16 12:39 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

:lol:

Different states have different needs. Cities will dominate elections. It was designed like that for a reason. Let's become a true democracy.

At the end of the day president never represents all of America. It's generally around a 2-3% difference in this case it was less then one tenth of a percent.

I don't even live in Alaska anymore I live in Washington. Was explaining to an Alaskan friend you actually lose value and and benefit from it. This is a blue state they didn't even touch on it.


--------------------
"I don't give nothin' to nobody, I just pay the cost to do business." - Riley "Young Reezy"-Boondocks

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

"In the days of kings and queens I was a jester."

"And then the great lord created bears... too many bears... shoulda really dialed back on the bears." Squidbillies

"Can you start speaking words instead of your damn filthy lies!"- Louise "Bobs Burgers"


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Offlinetwighead
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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho]
    #23818095 - 11/10/16 12:42 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Here's what happened: The dumbass south voted for Clinton in the primaries putting her on the shit ballot

The dumbass south/midwest voted trump in the election putting him in the general and didn't do shit for the demo candidate they chose. Dumb fucking primaries. :lol:

See what's happening here?



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Offlinekoods
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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods]
    #23818098 - 11/10/16 12:44 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Just think about this:

The democrats got more total votes in house races

The democrats got more total votes in senate races

The democrats got more total votes in the presidential race

Yet the republicans have control of everything.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho] * 3
    #23818108 - 11/10/16 12:51 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enjoywho said:
:lol:

Different states have different needs. Cities will dominate elections. It was designed like that for a reason. Let's become a true democracy.

At the end of the day president never represents all of America. It's generally around a 2-3% difference in this case it was less then one tenth of a percent.

I don't even live in Alaska anymore I live in Washington. Was explaining to an Alaskan friend you actually lose value and and benefit from it. This is a blue state they didn't even touch on it.




The president does not represent states. The senate is where states get their representation.

Jesus Christ, have you ever taken a civics course. This a representitve democracy. The president represents the all the people in the country and should be elected by the people not an electoral college. A true democracy everyone gets to vote on everything and theee is no president.

Whatever the original intent of the EC was, it now just makes candidates focus on very limited areas. Why did the candidates have dozens of rallies within a hundred miles of philly while never
Setting foot in California or Idaho or whatever? The EC.


Edited by koods (11/10/16 12:56 AM)


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Invisibleohcrapitsnico
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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods]
    #23818109 - 11/10/16 12:51 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

As long as Alaska has its voice that's all that matters, California doesn't matter for sure.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho]
    #23818119 - 11/10/16 12:58 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enjoywho said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
In a true democracy an electoral college shouldn't even exist. It should be the voice of the popular vote and that's it.




This is what cracks me up most. We aren't a true democracy. We're a Republic. Am I the only one that paid attention in us government.




Yeah... that's the point. I'm saying we should become a formal democracy. :facepalm:


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OfflineEnjoywho
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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho]
    #23818126 - 11/10/16 01:02 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Democracy is fundamentally flawed. That's why you have people that don't even know we aren't a democracy. We're a Republic. At the state level we are a democracy.

Whoever said it is right. We have Congress. Which is essentially like the European Union. I'll find the source in a minute but voter turnout is abysmal. 46% turn out to vote for president. 320 million population. 120 million votes. Subtract kids under 18. But midterms are even worse. Where your vote does matter. 26% over 18 turn out for midterms.

I've never voted for president but I do pay a lot of attention to my senators and house representatives and vote. As that is where it's won. Plus you have all the bills for your state for that election cycle.

So maybe a true democracy would be better. Washington is overwhelmingly Democratic. As soon as it hit pierce, Thurston, and king and county it straight dunked the rural areas. Who knows all government philosophies come with there pros and cons.

The dnc fucked up by blacking out Bernie. He had the same stance as trump. Fuck big government. I would have voted for him. But they chose a career politician. And half the population especially in swing states spoke out.

The dnc fucked that up hard. I think Bernie would have won that one. I don't trust Hillary. We have 3 decades of Hillary Clinton and things she's done in the public eye. They fucked up and we all pay for it.


--------------------
"I don't give nothin' to nobody, I just pay the cost to do business." - Riley "Young Reezy"-Boondocks

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

"In the days of kings and queens I was a jester."

"And then the great lord created bears... too many bears... shoulda really dialed back on the bears." Squidbillies

"Can you start speaking words instead of your damn filthy lies!"- Louise "Bobs Burgers"


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Electoral college [Re: Crystal G]
    #23818149 - 11/10/16 01:15 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

The intent of the electoral college was to incentivize campaigning in more diverse areas. In practice does the opposite and incentivized campaigning a few states only. These states get all the attention and the rest get none. Its failure to work as  intended is reason enough to abandon it, but it turns out it also disenfranchises the actual winners of presidential races. The EC cannot be justified and must go. Democracies are flawed but that doesn't mean you don't try to fix the flaws when they arise.


You keep talking about a true democracy. That is totally irrelevant to this convo. The order that ballots are counted in Washington state is irrelevant. The dnc is irrelevant.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods]
    #23818160 - 11/10/16 01:23 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

The electoral college supresses  turnout as well. why vote if you know your state is reliably in your party's column. A popular vote system makes state totals irrelevant. Every vote counts.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineKonyap

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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods]
    #23818169 - 11/10/16 01:28 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

yeah electoral college has no place when voting for a federal candidate

it was there so that the people in charge could choose a candidate if they thought their voters were uninformed btw it has nothing to do with "agri points"


Edited by Konyap (11/10/16 01:28 AM)


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods]
    #23818184 - 11/10/16 01:35 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
The electoral college supresses  turnout as well. why vote if you know your state is reliably in your party's column. A popular vote system makes state totals irrelevant. Every vote counts.




In Australia they made voting mandatory among all citizens. Maybe the USA should try something similar.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Konyap]
    #23818185 - 11/10/16 01:35 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Article II, Section 1, Clause 3 of the Constitution provided the original plan by which the electors chose the president and vice president. Under the original plan, the candidate who received a majority of votes from the electors would become president; the candidate receiving the second most votes would become vice president.




Could you imagine Trump and Hilary together?

Quote:

The emergence of political parties and nationally coordinated election campaigns soon complicated matters in the elections of 1796 and 1800. In 1796, Federalist Party candidate John Adams won the presidential election. Finishing in second place was Democratic-Republican Party candidate Thomas Jefferson, the Federalists' opponent, who became the vice president. This resulted in the President and Vice President not being of the same political party.
In 1800, the Democratic-Republican Party again nominated Jefferson for president, and also nominated Aaron Burr for vice president. After the election, Jefferson and Burr both obtained a majority of electoral votes, but tied one another with 73 votes each. Since ballots did not distinguish between votes for president and votes for vice president, every ballot cast for Burr technically counted as a vote for him to become president, despite Jefferson clearly being his party's first choice. Lacking a clear winner by constitutional standards, the election had to be decided by the House of Representatives pursuant to the Constitution's contingency election provision.
Having already lost the presidential contest, Federalist Party representatives in the lame duck House session seized upon the opportunity to embarrass their opposition and attempted to elect Burr over Jefferson. The House deadlocked for 35 ballots as neither candidate received the necessary majority vote of the state delegations in the House (the votes of nine states were needed for an election). Jefferson achieved electoral victory on the 36th ballot, but only after Federalist Party leader Alexander Hamilton – who disfavored Burr's personal character more than Jefferson's policies – had made known his preference for Jefferson.
Responding to the problems from those elections, the Congress proposed the Twelfth Amendment in 1803 – prescribing electors cast separate ballots for president and vice president – to replace the system outlined




Edited by Konyap (11/10/16 01:37 AM)


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OfflineKonyap

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Re: Electoral college [Re: Crystal G]
    #23818188 - 11/10/16 01:38 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

koods said:
The electoral college supresses  turnout as well. why vote if you know your state is reliably in your party's column. A popular vote system makes state totals irrelevant. Every vote counts.




In Australia they made voting mandatory among all citizens. Maybe the USA should try something similar.




Please god no they already call my house 3x a day
if we had the day off that would be a different story


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Konyap]
    #23818190 - 11/10/16 01:39 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

i think the electoral college votes should be split among how the people of the state vote. like if the state has 10 electoral and the split between the 2 parties is 60/40 it should be accounted for according to the votes.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Konyap]
    #23818191 - 11/10/16 01:40 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Konyap said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

koods said:
The electoral college supresses  turnout as well. why vote if you know your state is reliably in your party's column. A popular vote system makes state totals irrelevant. Every vote counts.




In Australia they made voting mandatory among all citizens. Maybe the USA should try something similar.




Please god no they already call my house 3x a day
if we had the day off that would be a different story




They do that too, I believe. I know in India voting is a national holiday and everybody is given the day off to go vote.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Konyap]
    #23818192 - 11/10/16 01:40 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Ok. I guess that is a popular myth becasue everyone says it. Makes sense that it's wrong becasue there is nothing about the EC system that motivates a campaign to focus on agriculture area instead of cities. There are plenty of rallies in cities these days - bit only in swing state.

The whole idea of a popular vote is that states become irrelevant. The value of your vote isn't weighted or dependent on where you live, everyone has the same value.

The other reason why the EC stupid is it requires the winner to get a majority of the electoral votes (270). There is a chance of a tie as well. If nobody gets 270, then essentially the election is void and the house of representives gets to pick the presidents. With two contestant, this rarely happens. Once you have more than two, it becomes more and more likely that nobody gets 270 and the election is found. This makes a competitive 3 way race nearly impossible.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods]
    #23818195 - 11/10/16 01:41 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

More of what I talked about, I don't know much about gov't btw I'm just copy&pasta

Quote:

During the 1836 election, Virginia's entire 23-man electoral delegation faithlessly voted against victorious Democratic Party Vice Presidential Candidate Richard Mentor Johnson[1] due to Johnson's openly admitted, publicized, long-term interracial relationship with his slave, Julia Chinn. The loss of Virginia's support caused Johnson to fall one electoral vote short of a majority, causing the Vice Presidential election to be thrown into the U.S. Senate for the only time in American history. However, Virginia's electors voted for Martin Van Buren as pledged, meaning the presidential election itself was not in dispute. The U.S. Senate ultimately elected Johnson anyway after a party-line vote.[citation needed] Despite 157 instances of faithlessness as of 2015, faithless electors have not yet affected the results or ultimate outcome of any other presidential election




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Re: Electoral college [Re: Konyap]
    #23818206 - 11/10/16 01:50 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

fuck a little more detail but still really bad:lol:
https://forum.quartertothree.com/t/the-election-of-1836/125113/4


Edited by Konyap (11/10/16 01:50 AM)


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Re: Electoral college [Re: rackem]
    #23818210 - 11/10/16 01:54 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

rackem said:
i think the electoral college votes should be split among how the people of the state vote. like if the state has 10 electoral and the split between the 2 parties is 60/40 it should be accounted for according to the votes.




Well, that lowers the resolution of the vote tallies. Most of the states the other day were won by less than five percent. How do you divide up the EC votes so that they represent the percentages. If you have 4 EC votes to play with and a vote of 51 to 49, there is no way to fairly distribute the EC votes. 2 and 2 shortchanges the leader and 3 to 1 short changes the trailer. 

This brings up another concern. States already have the power to decide how the electoral college comes are distributed, all or nothing or proportional.  If you start assigning votes to each congressional district, then you start gerrymandering the presidential race. You could end up with a candidate winning a landslide popular vote and losing the EC college,

The only method that cannot be gerrymandered or manipulated is the nationwide popular vote.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods]
    #23818214 - 11/10/16 01:57 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

hey if the EC stays, i believe that is the step in the right direction of fairness and it would also make a personal vote seem a little bit more powerful to the people that think that their vote doesnt matter.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods]
    #23818216 - 11/10/16 01:58 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
The electoral college supresses  turnout as well. why vote if you know your state is reliably in your party's column. A popular vote system makes state totals irrelevant. Every vote counts.




I agree that's why I don't vote. I'm mostly spit balling as I'm by no means an expert on government philosophy and don't know what the right answer is. That absolutely does detract from why I personally don't vote.

I did vote for the bills on a state level this election but left president blank. As it didn't really matter what I voted for we are overwhelmingly Democratic. Perhaps that is the right way to do it. Honestly I don't know and this election cycle has me burnt on politics. Such a circus it's hard to find actual facts after wading through all the bullshit.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: rackem]
    #23818220 - 11/10/16 02:04 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

rackem said:
i think the electoral college votes should be split among how the people of the state vote. like if the state has 10 electoral and the split between the 2 parties is 60/40 it should be accounted for according to the votes.




That was another idea I've been mulling over today. As even though your state majority won by a percent. That's basically ignoring 49% of the rest. I've been trying to mull over the best way to do it. That would basically mean your doing pop vote. But dividing it to the lowest common denominator.

Which is just basic algebra. Smaller numbers are easier to work with.

I would honestly support this idea more than completely abolishing it.


--------------------
"I don't give nothin' to nobody, I just pay the cost to do business." - Riley "Young Reezy"-Boondocks

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

"In the days of kings and queens I was a jester."

"And then the great lord created bears... too many bears... shoulda really dialed back on the bears." Squidbillies

"Can you start speaking words instead of your damn filthy lies!"- Louise "Bobs Burgers"


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Re: Electoral college [Re: ohcrapitsnico]
    #23818223 - 11/10/16 02:08 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ohcrapitsnico said:
The electoral college was not created to ensure small states an equal voice it was created to remove the election of the president directly from the hands of the public. The consequence is that any state that has a close margin of support between candidates gets an outsized voice in the election as you see with Florida and North Carolina which are definitely not small states.




I think in cases like this, say anything in the upper 40s percent, the college should be split in half.

The justification is again for states rights and that what is best for a state is more important than what is best for individuals. At the time this system was founded a considerable number of people were ineligible to vote either because they were slaves, non caucasian in general, or female. It was believed that the governing body and the voice of the intelligent and educated voters would see to doing best for everyone.


Obviously times have changed and people are pretty well equally stupid now.




Enjoywho it's no secret American tries to pass itself off as a democracy. Even to it's own people.


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Edited by CookieCrumbs (11/10/16 02:19 AM)


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Crystal G]
    #23818229 - 11/10/16 02:18 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

koods said:
The electoral college supresses  turnout as well. why vote if you know your state is reliably in your party's column. A popular vote system makes state totals irrelevant. Every vote counts.




In Australia they made voting mandatory among all citizens. Maybe the USA should try something similar.




This would never work in the states unless you did it uber style and had someone come and pick up the vote when the person is ready to vote. I could only imagine how much more fraud would happen. To say nothing of the amount of bitching.


Though I do kinda wish it would happen. It would be very interesting to have a country that is actually represented on the votes. And not just under a quarter of the population (which is how many voted for either candidate)


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Re: Electoral college [Re: CookieCrumbs]
    #23818230 - 11/10/16 02:23 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Ya I dunno. Brain is fried. Too much politics over such a short amount of time. I don't have the knowledge to even have a vague idea of what the right way is. Well people who's entire lives are government philosophy don't. There's pros and cons to all of them. This is way under my pay grade. :lol:

I'm an optimistic person in general so I'm just trying to look at the positive. It's been 1 day there's a lot that can happen and I highly doubt it's just doom. And gloom time to jump ship.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: CookieCrumbs]
    #23818232 - 11/10/16 02:24 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

CookieCrumbs said:
This would never work in the states unless you did it uber style and had someone come and pick up the vote when the person is ready to vote. I could only imagine how much more fraud would happen. To say nothing of the amount of bitching.




I don't know, Australia is also a big country and they make it work. IDK how they do it though.

Maybe just make it mandatory for taxpayers by including a voting form with the tax form? And you cannot fill out your taxes unless you also vote? Pretty hard to do voter fraud with something like that unless you outright steal somebody's social security number.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: CookieCrumbs]
    #23818233 - 11/10/16 02:26 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

It's interesting that everyone seems to feel that they are only represented by the candidate they voted for. The president represents everyone no matter who voted for him,

Why does everyone need to make it complicated? Every variation of the EC system has unintended and unpredictable consequence and doesn't fundamentally solve anything. Popular vote is so simple. So simple that we count it already.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Crystal G]
    #23818234 - 11/10/16 02:28 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

CookieCrumbs said:
This would never work in the states unless you did it uber style and had someone come and pick up the vote when the person is ready to vote. I could only imagine how much more fraud would happen. To say nothing of the amount of bitching.




I don't know, Australia is also a big country and they make it work. IDK how they do it though.

Maybe just make it mandatory for taxpayers by including a voting form with the tax form? And you cannot fill out your taxes unless you also vote? Pretty hard to do voter fraud with something like that.




It wouldn't work here because we get Buthrt when government mandates anything.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods]
    #23818237 - 11/10/16 02:35 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Basically. I got pissed that I had to start filing a form that proves I have healthcare through an insurance provider. Then again I dislike doing taxes in general. It's stressful and at the end of every year uncle sam is like oh yeah we took more of your money than we should have, here's some back. I'd rather the fuckers keep it and leave me alone.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods]
    #23818240 - 11/10/16 02:37 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

First of all a. No. B. The population of Australia is only 5 million people more than the population of new york. It can't even be used for comparison.


--------------------
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"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

"In the days of kings and queens I was a jester."

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Re: Electoral college [Re: Crystal G]
    #23818242 - 11/10/16 02:38 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Though that's more because I feel it's way more complicated than it should be. I always feel like I'm going to file incorrectly because I didn't consult with a lawyer, banker, and financial provider.

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

CookieCrumbs said:
This would never work in the states unless you did it uber style and had someone come and pick up the vote when the person is ready to vote. I could only imagine how much more fraud would happen. To say nothing of the amount of bitching.




I don't know, Australia is also a big country and they make it work. IDK how they do it though.

Maybe just make it mandatory for taxpayers by including a voting form with the tax form? And you cannot fill out your taxes unless you also vote? Pretty hard to do voter fraud with something like that unless you outright steal somebody's social security number.





That could work.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho]
    #23818245 - 11/10/16 02:43 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

So I read about how Australia does it. They simply require all voters to show up to a polling booth. The voters that show up are not required to vote, they are allowed to cast a blank vote if they wish, they just have to show up to a booth with their ID or whatever and prove they were there.

If they do not show up, they receive a letter in the mail that charges them with a $15 fine. Unless they provide a reasonable excuse for not voting such as illness or travel or religious reasons or whatever, in which case they can get out of paying the fine.

Seems simple enough.

If anything, I would think there would be less instances of voter fraud if we implemented a mandatory voting system. If somebody's social security number shows up as having voted twice, that's an obvious red flag for voter fraud.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: CookieCrumbs] * 1
    #23818247 - 11/10/16 02:44 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Free gun with each ballot.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Crystal G]
    #23818249 - 11/10/16 02:47 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
So I read about how Australia does it. They simply require all voters to show up to a polling booth. The voters that show up are not required to vote, they are allowed to cast a blank vote if they wish, they just have to show up to a booth with their ID or whatever and prove they were there.

If they do not show up, they receive a letter in the mail that charges them with a $15 fine. Unless they provide a reasonable excuse for not voting such as illness or travel or religious reasons or whatever, in which case they can get out of paying the fine.

Seems simple enough.

If anything, I would think there would be less instances of voter fraud if we implemented a mandatory voting system. If somebody's social security number shows up as having voted twice, that's an obvious red flag for voter fraud.



There isn't very much voter fraud now because you can only vote once already. When you vote, your name is marked and they will see you have already voted if you try again.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho]
    #23818257 - 11/10/16 03:01 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I've been mulling over what should we do. All government philosophies have pros and cons. True democracy and communism look good on paper but look at communism. They have even more of an elite wealth and people eating shoes. The closest thing I can come to is decide the electoral voted by state by population. Say you have a 40/60 dem/rep split in a 10 electoral state. Split the votes. 4/6. The math equals out and makes sense for electorate votes and population. It's just reducing to the lowest common denominator. Basic algebra. Which makes the numbers easier to understand.

I think this is the best way to do it.  Let's use Alaska as the example as I've been doing. It was a 2/3rd 1/3rd rep/Democrat. So there 3 votes would be 2/1. Everyone's vote still counts if at the end the electoral would be tied at a half of a percent than go off overall pop vote.

I think that gives fairness to all. That's my personal solution to it. I'm tired of politics.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Crystal G]
    #23818258 - 11/10/16 03:06 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
So I read about how Australia does it. They simply require all voters to show up to a polling booth. The voters that show up are not required to vote, they are allowed to cast a blank vote if they wish, they just have to show up to a booth with their ID or whatever and prove they were there.

If they do not show up, they receive a letter in the mail that charges them with a $15 fine. Unless they provide a reasonable excuse for not voting such as illness or travel or religious reasons or whatever, in which case they can get out of paying the fine.

Seems simple enough.

If anything, I would think there would be less instances of voter fraud if we implemented a mandatory voting system. If somebody's social security number shows up as having voted twice, that's an obvious red flag for voter fraud.




Not going to lie I'd just pay the 15$ and not go if I was forced to. That's pocket change. I've never gone to jury duty and nothing has ever come of it. :shrug:


--------------------
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"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

"In the days of kings and queens I was a jester."

"And then the great lord created bears... too many bears... shoulda really dialed back on the bears." Squidbillies

"Can you start speaking words instead of your damn filthy lies!"- Louise "Bobs Burgers"


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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods]
    #23818262 - 11/10/16 03:13 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
There isn't very much voter fraud now because you can only vote once already. When you vote, your name is marked and they will see you have already voted if you try again.




Is the list computerized and accessible to everybody and everything? Because what happens if you travel to a different county or city or polling booth?


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho]
    #23818264 - 11/10/16 03:15 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Well, that system means smaller states cannot represent their totals as accurately as large states.

Why is everyone tribe to come up with a way to make this fair? It is inherently flawed. The popular vote however, is pure. It's just counting.  And I still don't get why Alaska voters should get to have their votes worth more than a California in the presidential race. You already have small states getting the same number of senators as large ones - that is your undeserved excess influence.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Crystal G]
    #23818267 - 11/10/16 03:16 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

koods said:
There isn't very much voter fraud now because you can only vote once already. When you vote, your name is marked and they will see you have already voted if you try again.




Is the list computerized and accessible to everybody and everything? Because what happens if you travel to a different county or city or polling booth?



You have one assigned polling location. You can't just vote anywhere ypu want.

Have you voted before :lol:


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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods] * 1
    #23818277 - 11/10/16 03:29 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Well, that system means smaller states cannot represent their totals as accurately as large states.

Why is everyone tribe to come up with a way to make this fair? It is inherently flawed. The popular vote however, is pure. It's just counting.  And I still don't get why Alaska voters should get to have their votes worth more than a California in the presidential race. You already have small states getting the same number of senators as large ones - that is your undeserved excess influence.




Ya I was just reading through what you've said. I agree. I don't think it's undeserved by any means. What's undeserved is large cities being able to tell smaller areas where they get all the resources they consume what they can and can't do.

Ive lived in quite a few states and city and rural atmospheres. There all different. I knew Alaska was was insta lock Republican. You work for what you have and eat what you can kill. But we were far more progressive on pot 10 years before cali couldn't make it legal.

Those rural areas have different views and it's frustrating when your being taxed heavily to support the big cities.

That's the frustration the rural worker feels. Especially middle class older people. I've worked my ass off for my entire life and I have to pay 40% to the government to support yuppie city kids who think work is sitting on a computer?

That is why trump won. Even if we went off pop vote it was a miniscule 200k votes. There are a lot of pissed off people in rural areas and the rust belt. It has nothing to do with hate or any of that. Where is the security that you work hard you can keep what you've earned?

I get it.


--------------------
"I don't give nothin' to nobody, I just pay the cost to do business." - Riley "Young Reezy"-Boondocks

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho]
    #23818281 - 11/10/16 03:33 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Again, the EC does absolutely nothing to ensure rural influence. Campaigning is always going to focus on population centers regardless. Becasue of the EC, Clinton and Trump spent half their time in Philly, Orlando area and Raleigh.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods]
    #23818290 - 11/10/16 03:40 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
You have one assigned polling location. You can't just vote anywhere ypu want.

Have you voted before :lol:




What I mean is, what if you just show up to a different polling booth? What happens if you try to do this? Would anybody catch you?


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Crystal G]
    #23818297 - 11/10/16 03:49 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

You won't be on the list


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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods] * 2
    #23818299 - 11/10/16 03:50 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Nah trump spent his time in the rural parts of the state. Hillary took votes in the predominately democratic areas for granted. Trump flipped 6 states. She underperformed.

Maybe it is as they're saying. Women can be anything but president. 42% of women still voted for trump. 36% of Latinos. Only time will tell right now.

I do have a lot of good friends from various countries around the world. Asian and Africa. They're all americanized. But I've sat in fascination as they tell they're cultures beliefs and especially customs. A good Laotian friend of mine has some of my favorites. But essentially the women in those cultures are still property.

They don't agree but that's their culture. Along with a lot of Mexican guys they are very possessive you don't want to be caught casually play flirting with there wives. Different cultures. I do have a lot to think about as my sister is gay and I definitely don't want this to negatively affect the happiness she has found.


--------------------
"I don't give nothin' to nobody, I just pay the cost to do business." - Riley "Young Reezy"-Boondocks

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

"In the days of kings and queens I was a jester."

"And then the great lord created bears... too many bears... shoulda really dialed back on the bears." Squidbillies

"Can you start speaking words instead of your damn filthy lies!"- Louise "Bobs Burgers"


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho]
    #23818303 - 11/10/16 03:58 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

There were clearly things where sexism played a role, especially when it came to international conflicts. Labeling Clinton a crazy war monger for simply being firm with foreign powers would never happen with a man. A man would be called tough.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods]
    #23818324 - 11/10/16 04:13 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Exactly. We can all pretend it doesn't exist. But it clearly does. Especially in foreign policy. We may be progressive that doesn't mean the rest of the world is. Just like we pretend racism doesn't exist.

It does if I see some thug walking towards me I may cross the street. But I'll do that any color of your skin. There is some essential truths to racism as we are tribal by nature. But there are socio economics tied to them that breed that sort of thing. If you look at the division of white/minority lines in every major city they are sectioned by a railroad or a major highway.

If people are starving they will do anything to survive. What's honestly the worst part about it is they turn on eachother. Resulting in gangs.

There's a lot wrong in this country but it's such a melting pot there is no black and white answer. Nobody knows how to deal with it. Cops aren't helping as they kill and are bullies. They harass me and I'm a stand up model white citizen. People want restitution and hold resentment over past things. Cops and the last part of the population hold on to ignorance. What do you do. 320 million people. That's intangible. Especially in such a diverse place. I can go a state over and the culture is different.


--------------------
"I don't give nothin' to nobody, I just pay the cost to do business." - Riley "Young Reezy"-Boondocks

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

"In the days of kings and queens I was a jester."

"And then the great lord created bears... too many bears... shoulda really dialed back on the bears." Squidbillies

"Can you start speaking words instead of your damn filthy lies!"- Louise "Bobs Burgers"


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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods]
    #23818330 - 11/10/16 04:23 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
There were clearly things where sexism played a role, especially when it came to international conflicts. Labeling Clinton a crazy war monger for simply being firm with foreign powers would never happen with a man. A man would be called tough.




That is absolutely true. Or people complained about the fact that Clinton wasn't "likable," because she comes across as bitchy or whatever. She just has a serious face on at all times like Nixon, what's wrong with that?

While sexism might not be the main or sole reason she lost, you can't say that it played absolutely NO factor in it.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho]
    #23818331 - 11/10/16 04:26 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enjoywho said:
42% of women still voted for trump. 36% of Latinos.




That really doesn't surprise me. People always vote against their best interests. Women are the biggest believers of religion, even though religion has arguably been the biggest oppressor of women. Poor people often vote Republican, even though doing so is clearly against their best interests.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Crystal G]
    #23818337 - 11/10/16 04:35 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Well Alaska was always Republican. Washington made me soft. Spending the summer in Montana another blue collar state woke me up. If you want to work you absolutely can. Always something to build something to do.

Hunting and fishing. Something to kill to eat.

I've been back here in Washington for 3 weeks and got all my socialist programs back. Food stamps, health care, etc etc etc. I had none of that there and it was great.

I pay into the system at about 40-50% in gov and state tax. Why wouldnt I get a small bit of my investment back. Socialism makes me lazy as fuck. Eh I can just subsidize it through the state.

Im honestly not liking the feeling after 3 years there and going back to my roots of hard work it was as if a fog was lifted. What the fuck? Getting more complacent by the day.

If I didn't work I couldn't eat or pay my bills. Spent a night freezing in the dark with no electricity and starving. Fuck shouldn't have been so lazy. Bet your ass I was pouring concrete the next day.

You didn't subsidize food costs with food stamps. You killed for food. We'd go dip netting 100 salmon in the freezer. One year my dad got a moose. Salmon and moose was primarily what we ate. Not only does that feed a family for an entire year you give a lot to family and friends. It feeds the community as well. That was refreshing.


--------------------
"I don't give nothin' to nobody, I just pay the cost to do business." - Riley "Young Reezy"-Boondocks

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

"In the days of kings and queens I was a jester."

"And then the great lord created bears... too many bears... shoulda really dialed back on the bears." Squidbillies

"Can you start speaking words instead of your damn filthy lies!"- Louise "Bobs Burgers"


Edited by Enjoywho (11/10/16 04:51 AM)


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho]
    #23818350 - 11/10/16 04:57 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Jeeze. You must be making a lot of money to pay that much in tax. And if not that does suck. In canada you wouldnt be taxed that much until you make more than 200,000 and even then its not much more than 40% and it maxes out. Also all income before 200,000 would be charged within the other tax bracket amounts.

Is it not like that in USA?

As for EC, I dont know but it just makes sense to me to use popular vote.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: sh4d0ws]
    #23818365 - 11/10/16 05:20 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I was thinking the same thing, 40-50% tax, you must be in the highest tax bracket. Even people making $415,050 per year get a 40% tax.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods]
    #23818380 - 11/10/16 05:32 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
There were clearly things where sexism played a role, especially when it came to international conflicts. Labeling Clinton a crazy war monger for simply being firm with foreign powers would never happen with a man. A man would be called tough.




Bush was called a warmonger, so was McCain when he ran, your logic is flawed

Not everything is racist or sexist, but to a liberal it is, I can see why you are so frustrated with that thought process


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Crystal G]
    #23818384 - 11/10/16 05:34 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
I was thinking the same thing, 40-50% tax, you must be in the highest tax bracket. Even people making $415,050 per year get a 40% tax.




Federal income tax is NOT the only tax paid, pleAse read a book or something :facepalm:


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Re: Electoral college [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23818393 - 11/10/16 05:39 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

yah, but fed income tax is always there, even when some states have no income tax.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #23818401 - 11/10/16 05:46 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
yah, but fed income tax is always there, even when some states have no income tax.




And even when they don't, they still have local taxes,

***plus all the "other" federal taxes the federal govt imposes


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Re: Electoral college [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23818421 - 11/10/16 06:00 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
I was thinking the same thing, 40-50% tax, you must be in the highest tax bracket. Even people making $415,050 per year get a 40% tax.




Federal income tax is NOT the only tax paid, pleAse read a book or something :facepalm:




No shit buttface, that's still really high. :facepalm: Even if you're in the highest tax bracket for your state, that still only comes out to 10% or so. California has the highest tax bracket out of any other state, and their top percentile pays 13%.

I mean 40% is more understandable (but even then your income is probably $60,000 to be paying that much), but 50% is quite high.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Crystal G]
    #23818431 - 11/10/16 06:09 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

It's not high when you consider ALL the taxes people pay,

***and of course democrats promised to raise them even higher,  no wonder they lost:lol:


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Re: Electoral college [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23818437 - 11/10/16 06:12 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

We won. Trump is an accident.

You should feel proud of Accident-Elect Trump, he did better than both Johnson and Stein.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


Edited by koods (11/10/16 06:16 AM)


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Re: Electoral college [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23818450 - 11/10/16 06:19 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
It's not high when you consider ALL the taxes people pay,




It IS still high. Those figures I just gave are including federal tax, state tax, local tax, and FICA.

It's not so high it's not doable, but it's a high income especially considering Enjoywho's age, it means he's probably making 6 figures or more at only 23.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods]
    #23818457 - 11/10/16 06:23 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
It's not high when you consider ALL the taxes people pay,




It IS still high. Those figures I just gave are including federal tax, state tax, local tax, and FICA.

It's not so high it's not doable, but it's a high income especially considering Enjoywho's age, it means he's probably making 6 figures or more at only 23.




And what's wrong with that? I've never understood why people making a good living is so frowned upon that they need lose half their earnings right off the top

Quote:

koods said:
We won. Trump is an accident.

You should feel proud of Accident-Elect Trump, he did better than both Johnson and Stein.




Keep telling yourself that, but don't worry, Trump will make America great for you as well.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Crystal G]
    #23818459 - 11/10/16 06:24 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Except he lives in a state with no income taxes, so it's really hard to see how he gets to 50% even if he were making millions.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23818463 - 11/10/16 06:28 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
And what's wrong with that? I've never understood why people making a good living is so frowned upon that they need lose half their earnings right off the top




Jesus fucking Christ :facepalm:

Why do you ALWAYS ASSUME I'm saying something negative whenever I say any sentence? Somehow you ALWAYS TWIST IT into me criticizing or complaining about something.

I could say anything like "Mexico won the gold in Olympic fencing," and somehow you'll be like, "Why are you insinuating that the USA sucks, why are you so anti American" or some shit.

WHY? WHY DO YOU DO THAT.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Crystal G]
    #23818475 - 11/10/16 06:32 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
yah, but fed income tax is always there, even when some states have no income tax.




And even when they don't, they still have local taxes,

***plus all the "other" federal taxes the federal govt imposes




I don't think there are many paces where there are local income taxes in states without state income tax, usually the taxes are combined into one number

,
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
And what's wrong with that? I've never understood why people making a good living is so frowned upon that they need lose half their earnings right off the top




Jesus fucking Christ :facepalm:

Why do you ALWAYS ASSUME I'm saying something negative whenever I say any sentence? It could be anything like "Mexico won the gold in Olympic fencing," and somehow you ALWAYS TWIST IT into me criticizing or complaining about something.

WHY? WHY DO YOU DO THAT.




Lol his premise. He thinks taxes are a punishment for making money. And nobody in this country is losing half their income to taxes unless they are a millionaire and even then I'm a little skeptical.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Crystal G] * 1
    #23818481 - 11/10/16 06:34 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
In a true democracy an electoral college shouldn't even exist. It should be the voice of the popular vote and that's it.




Do you not know we are a republic? This is as it should be.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho]
    #23818486 - 11/10/16 06:35 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enjoywho said:
Am I the only one that paid attention in us government.




It would seem you're among the few who did.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods] * 3
    #23818492 - 11/10/16 06:37 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Enjoywho, why the fuck should Alaska get more influence than its population deserves?




Because we are a union of states and the electoral vote evens out the power between the states.

It's a far better system than the popular vote... so stop whining.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods]
    #23818500 - 11/10/16 06:40 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Just think about this:

The democrats got more total votes in house races

The democrats got more total votes in senate races

The democrats got more total votes in the presidential race

Yet the republicans have control of everything.




Because we are a union of states and there were more states voting Trump. Someday you'll get it. Perhaps you'll have the class to feel foolish about it.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods]
    #23818506 - 11/10/16 06:42 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Jesus Christ, have you ever taken a civics course.




It seems he paid far more attention than you did.


Quote:

This a representitve democracy.




No. It's a Republic. We are not and never have been a democracy.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Crystal G]
    #23818511 - 11/10/16 06:45 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
In Australia they made voting mandatory among all citizens. Maybe the USA should try something similar.




:lmafo:

You really want a bunch of uninterested, uneducated (about politics) people being forced to cast a vote for something/someone they know little about and care even less about?

That's some funny shit.

While we're at it, lets force people to do public service. Hell, let's bring back the draft.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Electoral college [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #23818512 - 11/10/16 06:47 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
In a true democracy an electoral college shouldn't even exist. It should be the voice of the popular vote and that's it.




Do you not know we are a republic? This is as it should be.




Technically it's a democratic republic.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Electoral college [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #23818517 - 11/10/16 06:49 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
:lmafo:

You really want a bunch of uninterested, uneducated (about politics) people being forced to cast a vote for something/someone they know little about and care even less about?

That's some funny shit.

While we're at it, lets force people to do public service. Hell, let's bring back the draft.




And yet somehow, quite many countries have mandatory voting (Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Argentina, Singapore, Luxembourg, etc.), and they seem to manage just fine.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Crystal G]
    #23818526 - 11/10/16 06:54 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
In a true democracy an electoral college shouldn't even exist. It should be the voice of the popular vote and that's it.




Do you not know we are a republic? This is as it should be.




Technically it's a democratic republic.




A rose by any other name...

It's still a republic and not a democracy.

Quote:

NUMBER: 1593
AUTHOR: Benjamin Franklin (1706–90)
QUOTATION: “Well, Doctor, what have we got—a Republic or a Monarchy?”

  “A Republic, if you can keep it.”
ATTRIBUTION: The response is attributed to BENJAMIN FRANKLIN—at the close of the Constitutional Convention of 1787, when queried as he left Independence Hall on the final day of deliberation—in the notes of Dr. James McHenry, one of Maryland’s delegates to the Convention.

  McHenry’s notes were first published in The American Historical Review, vol. 11, 1906, and the anecdote on p. 618 reads: “A lady asked Dr. Franklin Well Doctor what have we got a republic or a monarchy. A republic replied the Doctor if you can keep it.” When McHenry’s notes were included in The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787, ed. Max Farrand, vol. 3, appendix A, p. 85 (1911, reprinted 1934), a footnote stated that the date this anecdote was written is uncertain.
SUBJECTS: Republic
WORKS: Benjamin Franklin Collection




A republic protects the minority. A democracy, as has been pointed out many times over the years, is two wolves and one sheep deciding what's for dinner.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Crystal G]
    #23818534 - 11/10/16 06:55 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
And yet somehow, quite many countries have mandatory voting (Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Argentina, Singapore, Luxembourg, etc.), and they seem to manage just fine.




So what? It's still forcing those who don't know/don't care to do something they have no wish to do.

What else do you want to force people to do?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Electoral college [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #23818554 - 11/10/16 07:06 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
And yet somehow, quite many countries have mandatory voting (Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Argentina, Singapore, Luxembourg, etc.), and they seem to manage just fine.




So what? It's still forcing those who don't know/don't care to do something they have no wish to do.

What else do you want to force people to do?




They aren't required to vote, they are allowed to cast a blank vote or fill in Tweety Bird or whatever. They are allowed to forgo their vote or choose not to vote at all. They are simply required to show up to the polling booth place. I'm guessing somebody who is truly that apathetic won't cast a vote or will probably cast a joke vote for Harambe.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Crystal G]
    #23818560 - 11/10/16 07:08 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

They are forced to show up and cast a ballot or be fined.

What else do you want to force people to do?

I get it. Your candidate lost and it chaps your ass.

The electoral vote is still the right choice for a union of states.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Electoral college [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #23818568 - 11/10/16 07:14 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
They are forced to show up and cast a ballot or be fined.

What else do you want to force people to do?




No. They aren't. If you read how it works in Australia, they are only required to show up to the polling station. They are not required to cast any ballot.

Not only that, but you can claim any number of excuses for not showing up to the polling booth place. You can claim that you were sick for instance, and the government doesn't ask you for a doctor's note or any proof that you were sick. And by doing this, you also don't have to pay for the fine.

You can even claim that you forgot it was voting day, and that is a completely excusable reason to not pay the fine. People who TRULY don't give a shit at all wouldn't go and just claim they were sick or working or out of town or something.

Quote:

Actually, the voting part of "mandatory voting" is a misnomer. All Australian citizens over the age of 18 must register and show up at a polling station, but they need not actually vote. They can deface their ballot or write in Skippy the Bush Kangaroo (Australia's version of Lassie)—or do nothing at all.

What happens if you don't show up on Election Day? You'll receive a fairly polite form letter (see example here). At this point, you can settle the matter by paying a $15 fine or offering any number of excuses, including illness (no note from your doctor required), travel, religious objections, or just plain forgetfulness. For most people, the matter ends here. In most elections, about a half-million registered voters don't come to the polls. Ninety-five percent of them offer a valid excuse, and the matter ends there. Five percent pay a fine.




http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/the_best_policy/2004/10/you_must_vote_its_the_law.html


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Crystal G]
    #23818577 - 11/10/16 07:17 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Perhaps if it was something people were forced to do, people would take politics a lot more seriously.

Think about it. People used to be far more serious about political issues back when the draft was mandatory, because politics literally and directly affected their everyday lives. Because of that, people were incentivized and motivated to be politically involved.

One could actually argue that the real reason for all this apathy and ignorance in this nation is largely because everything in today's world is pretty much elective.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Crystal G]
    #23818582 - 11/10/16 07:20 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

You can define it as you wish.

People are forced to show up and take an action. They are fined if they don't.

What else do you want to force people to do?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Electoral college [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #23818646 - 11/10/16 07:55 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I'd be happier with a third of my salary going to taxes, I would be happy, if the government didn't spend money so frivolously on so much stupid shit.


--------------------
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Re: Electoral college [Re: CookieCrumbs]
    #23818740 - 11/10/16 08:40 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Also I think a really good way to make most people happy is to have way less power. Its hard to make them accountable for anything, to understand much of what they're doing, because of their size alone. They're signing in hundreds of bills every year and managing millions of different things at once and any internal changes or internal investigations effect millions of people. And who even investigations them? Their own bureaus. I think local police forces show us the glaring problems in not having an external enforcer.


Besides all that, our forefathers would gape at the massive overstepping of bounds the federal government has come to regularly commit. Our nation was never intended to be managed at a national level, the federal government was mostly just meant to hold state governments accountable and to make sure that when there was enough people nationwide that weren't being listened to they would have a voice at Washington.

Instead we're seeing much the opposite. The fed determines most of the laws for the country. And sometimes this is fair. It does what it is supposed to in allowing gay marriage and fair employment and housing and all that. But the way it micromanages agriculture, foods and drugs, and... Something else I totally just forgot (its early n I'm fucking hungry) and state funding has the states completely dependent on the federal government to dictate laws and, in the case of most states, enable them to do what they need to for their own people.

If you look at the last 150 years you can see how much power got shelfed over to the fed after the civil war. I think it was intentional in order to keep states subservient and to prevent them from truly believing they are a governing body in and of themselves.


--------------------
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Re: Electoral college [Re: Crystal G]
    #23819982 - 11/10/16 02:27 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
I was thinking the same thing, 40-50% tax, you must be in the highest tax bracket. Even people making $415,050 per year get a 40% tax.




Nah I'm poor. But it's about a 1/3rd. Last time I did the math. Then you have a 10% sales tax for anything you buy. I believe it's 21% for alcohol. That was the first thing that hit me when I got back to Washington. Why was that so much more expensive. Tax. Ah shit that's right. :lol:

Sales tax sucks I used to use my ID from Alaska on purchases over 100$ until I lost it. Sales tax is a bitch.


--------------------
"I don't give nothin' to nobody, I just pay the cost to do business." - Riley "Young Reezy"-Boondocks

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

"In the days of kings and queens I was a jester."

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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho]
    #23820021 - 11/10/16 02:46 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enjoywho said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
I was thinking the same thing, 40-50% tax, you must be in the highest tax bracket. Even people making $415,050 per year get a 40% tax.




Nah I'm poor. But it's about a 1/3rd. Last time I did the math. Then you have a 10% sales tax for anything you buy. I believe it's 21% for alcohol. That was the first thing that hit me when I got back to Washington. Why was that so much more expensive. Tax. Ah shit that's right. :lol:

Sales tax sucks I used to use my ID from Alaska on purchases over 100$ until I lost it. Sales tax is a bitch.




Yeah taxes are too damn high for middle-class or lower-middle class people. I remember my last job I was making just around $50,000. But after all taxes were taken out, and after 401K and health insurance costs were automatically deducted from my paycheck each month, I only ended up with like $1,000 bi-weekly. Something like $960 or something every 2 weeks.

It's such a joke when you're supposed to be making $50K a year, which by the way is the national household average salary (and that's for a THREE-PERSON household), and you can't even afford your own place so you're still renting rooms. :bored: Really makes you wonder just how the average American manages to scrape by.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Crystal G]
    #23820027 - 11/10/16 02:48 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

50k? You should definitely be paying more in taxes :psycrankey:


--------------------
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Re: Electoral college [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23820039 - 11/10/16 02:54 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Social programs mostly. It is impossible to live on your own. The mandatory minimum needs a serious discussion on what needs to be done. You should be able to live comfortably on 2 peoples salary.

When I was living in Seattle I was paying 600$ a month to rent a 10x10 square. Which was about a little under half of my income in somebody else's house. Add in food and the price of busses in Seattle. I finally moved back to a more rural area as they raised the price of busses from 2.75 to 3.50 ouch.

Fuck this I can't afford to do anything fun anyway. So I try to make it up for there for a weekend once every month or 2.


--------------------
"I don't give nothin' to nobody, I just pay the cost to do business." - Riley "Young Reezy"-Boondocks

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

"In the days of kings and queens I was a jester."

"And then the great lord created bears... too many bears... shoulda really dialed back on the bears." Squidbillies

"Can you start speaking words instead of your damn filthy lies!"- Louise "Bobs Burgers"


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InvisiblePatrickKn
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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho]
    #23820052 - 11/10/16 02:59 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Edit, Wrong thread, so out of context.


Edited by PatrickKn (11/10/16 03:45 PM)


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Re: Electoral college [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23820053 - 11/10/16 02:59 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Most people severely underestimate how bad inflation has gotten. I'm working at the same company my mom did and she said "when I started I was making 10k less than you" in like 1992... Money has devalued by almost half and prices in many commodities have almost doubled since then so like I'm still making less than she did as a middle class worker at the same business.

And she's always suggesting I just go out and buy a laptop or a new car or a fucking house. :facepalm: She thinks I can afford these things just cuz I don't have kids. ...ime older people don't get it at all. Alot of younger people don't either.


--------------------
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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho]
    #23820058 - 11/10/16 03:02 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
50k? You should definitely be paying more in taxes :psycrankey:




After 401K and health insurance costs were deducted from my paycheck, I ended up with less than 50% of that money. :feelsbadman:


Quote:

Enjoywho said:
When I was living in Seattle I was paying 600$ a month to rent a 10x10 square. Which was about a little under half of my income in somebody else's house. Add in food and the price of busses in Seattle. I finally moved back to a more rural area as they raised the price of busses from 2.75 to 3.50 ouch.




That's actually cheap for Seattle. I wasn't even aware you could find rooms for rent under $900. Considering apartments there are like what, $3K a month or so.


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OfflineWebster10
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Re: Electoral college [Re: ohcrapitsnico] * 1
    #23820059 - 11/10/16 03:02 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ohcrapitsnico said:
That's what the senate is for. We are the only country that elects the loser as president.



NIIIIICOOOOOO. Oh nicoooo. Have you heard the news? Trump won the popular vote


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Re: Electoral college [Re: CookieCrumbs]
    #23820075 - 11/10/16 03:08 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Yea inflation is out of hand. But what do you do about it? If wages goes up everything's just going to go up accordingly and we're all going to be just as broke.

:lol: I haven't owned a car in 4 years. Buy a house wouldn't that be nice.

It wasn't in Seattle but in one of the suburbs. I wasnt living in downtown but it was about a 30 minute bus ride to get there.


--------------------
"I don't give nothin' to nobody, I just pay the cost to do business." - Riley "Young Reezy"-Boondocks

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

"In the days of kings and queens I was a jester."

"And then the great lord created bears... too many bears... shoulda really dialed back on the bears." Squidbillies

"Can you start speaking words instead of your damn filthy lies!"- Louise "Bobs Burgers"


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho]
    #23820101 - 11/10/16 03:19 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Put blame where blame is due, wages started to stagnate when we were flooded with cheap labor, anyone who thinks that is a coincidence is retarded





***facts aren't racist


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Crystal G]
    #23820106 - 11/10/16 03:21 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
50k? You should definitely be paying more in taxes :psycrankey:




After 401K and health insurance costs were deducted from my paycheck, I ended up with less than 50% of that money. :feelsbadman:






Just think of how much you would have if taxes were lowered

***we are on the same side


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Electoral college [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23820117 - 11/10/16 03:27 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
50k? You should definitely be paying more in taxes :psycrankey:




After 401K and health insurance costs were deducted from my paycheck, I ended up with less than 50% of that money. :feelsbadman:






Just think of how much you would have if taxes were lowered

***we are on the same side




I've always said tax is too high for the middle class. I mean I don't mind a small percentage of my pay going towards taxes to help sustain and build society, but when you end up with only half your income and aren't making enough to even rent your own apartment, that is too much.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: hostileuniverse] * 1
    #23820118 - 11/10/16 03:27 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Put blame where blame is due, wages started to stagnate when we were flooded with cheap labor, anyone who thinks that is a coincidence is retarded





***facts aren't racist




Ya last year 2 of the cannery plants got raided. 300 illegals working for then making 40% of minimum wage. In a town that has high unemployment 300 legal workers got jobs.


--------------------
"I don't give nothin' to nobody, I just pay the cost to do business." - Riley "Young Reezy"-Boondocks

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

"In the days of kings and queens I was a jester."

"And then the great lord created bears... too many bears... shoulda really dialed back on the bears." Squidbillies

"Can you start speaking words instead of your damn filthy lies!"- Louise "Bobs Burgers"


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Crystal G]
    #23820122 - 11/10/16 03:28 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
50k? You should definitely be paying more in taxes :psycrankey:




After 401K and health insurance costs were deducted from my paycheck, I ended up with less than 50% of that money. :feelsbadman:






Just think of how much you would have if taxes were lowered

***we are on the same side




I've always said tax is too high for the middle class.




And the rich aren't people making making 100k, right?

***fingers crossed


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho]
    #23820125 - 11/10/16 03:29 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enjoywho said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Put blame where blame is due, wages started to stagnate when we were flooded with cheap labor, anyone who thinks that is a coincidence is retarded





***facts aren't racist




Ya last year 2 of the cannery plants got raided. 300 illegals working for then making 40% of minimum wage. In a town that has high unemployment 300 legal workers got jobs.




Bam!

***thats beautiful


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Electoral college [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23820128 - 11/10/16 03:31 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
And the rich aren't people making making 100k, right?

***fingers crossed




No. They're upper-middle class, but if you account for inflation $100,000 is really the equivalent of what "middle class" was in the 1950's.

The 1% starts somewhere around $350,000.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23820141 - 11/10/16 03:35 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I'm a lot more non-partisan than you think. I believe taxes are too high for a lot of people. That mass immigration has lead to lower standards of living for Americans. That America should strictly limit the number of refugees they accept. Still wouldn't vote for Trump.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Crystal G]
    #23820161 - 11/10/16 03:39 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

As we have a large population of Mexicans. Good luck getting any sort of landscaping work. Mexicans keep all our yards nice. I don't think I've honestly seen a white person mow there own lawn. :lol:.

They also drive the price of mushrooms down. As during the fall I go and pick Chantrelles during the fall. Can make a solid 60-100 for 4 hours walking around the wood. At the beginning of the season. Than the Mexicans start bringing in 1000's of pounds a day so it goes from 4-5 bucks a pound to under a dollar which really makes it not worth it.

It is great for about a month though. Dudes set up at the scummy hotels and buy them. Think they ship them to Oregon or whatever.


--------------------
"I don't give nothin' to nobody, I just pay the cost to do business." - Riley "Young Reezy"-Boondocks

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

"In the days of kings and queens I was a jester."

"And then the great lord created bears... too many bears... shoulda really dialed back on the bears." Squidbillies

"Can you start speaking words instead of your damn filthy lies!"- Louise "Bobs Burgers"


Edited by Enjoywho (11/10/16 03:45 PM)


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho]
    #23820212 - 11/10/16 03:54 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enjoywho said:
As we have a large population of Mexicans. Good luck getting any sort of landscaping work. Mexicans keep all our yards nice. I don't think I've honestly seen a white person mow there own lawn. :lol:.




Lots of white Americans would do landscaping work. Landscaping actually pays pretty decently well, plus a lot of guys enjoy gardening.

Spending all day picking strawberries on the other hand for $5 an hour though, probably not.


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OfflineEnjoywho
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Re: Electoral college [Re: Crystal G]
    #23820242 - 11/10/16 04:02 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Ya I like landscaping work personally. It's not particularly hard and I generally make out pretty good. But the market here is so overstatuated by Mexicans that have there own operations it would be hard to start your own little operation.


--------------------
"I don't give nothin' to nobody, I just pay the cost to do business." - Riley "Young Reezy"-Boondocks

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

"In the days of kings and queens I was a jester."

"And then the great lord created bears... too many bears... shoulda really dialed back on the bears." Squidbillies

"Can you start speaking words instead of your damn filthy lies!"- Louise "Bobs Burgers"


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho] * 1
    #23820269 - 11/10/16 04:15 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Fed should stop spending money like a college girl with daddy's credit card for starters.

Illegal mexican immigrants are basically refugees. Make it easier for them to work under the law, for minimum wage (competitive wage) and fine the shit out of anyone that abusises what below min wage loop holes exist on the first offense, dismantle their business on the 2nd.


Outsourcing is a huge problem. You inevitably lose money when you have more goods coming in than going out. It speaks volumes that our largest industries are service and healthcare.


--------------------
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Re: Electoral college [Re: CookieCrumbs]
    #23820413 - 11/10/16 05:22 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

CookieCrumbs said:
Fed should stop spending money like a college girl with daddy's credit card for starters.

Illegal mexican immigrants are basically refugees. Make it easier for them to work under the law, for minimum wage (competitive wage) and fine the shit out of anyone that abusises what below min wage loop holes exist on the first offense, dismantle their business on the 2nd.


Outsourcing is a huge problem. You inevitably lose money when you have more goods coming in than going out. It speaks volumes that our largest industries are service and healthcare.




:whathesaid:

***Trump 2016


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Re: Electoral college [Re: luvdemshrooms] * 2
    #23820703 - 11/10/16 06:46 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Because we are a union of states and the electoral vote evens out the power between the states.

It's a far better system than the popular vote... so stop whining.




I agree. Otherwise the most populous states would be controlling all the rest of us. Koods only wants the EC abolished because it would disproportionately affect rural white voters. :razz:


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InvisibleMojo
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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods]
    #23820746 - 11/10/16 06:58 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:

The entire country is ignored except for Battleground states in the EC system. How is that better? How does the electoral college benefit Alaska? There probably hasn't been a general election campaign rally in Alaska in the last 50 years.

You cannot design a system that gets everyone some attention. This is re age of instant communication and national news networks. We don't need to force candidates to visit places. Trying to manipulate where campaigning occurs using a contrived voting system is dumb, and considering that the second place finisher has won two elections in the past 16 years override, it is fundamentally unfair.

This is a representative democracy and the president represents all the people in the entire country, and he should be elected by the people not electoral voters were some state's citizens have more influence than elsewhere.






The United States is not a Democracy, it is a Republic. And our founders designed it that way on purpose to ensure that one region of the country could not lead a president to victory.  Alaska didn't have more of a voice than usual, (this time around). But your missing the point; Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin have been blue states for 2 and a half decades and received little attention from Hillary; meanwhile the GOP hit those states hard and pulled out a win.  Those states were pivotal to Trumps victory yet the democrats didn't perceive them as "Battleground States".

Sorry to quote Wiki but"
"The swing states of Ohio, Connecticut, Indiana, New Jersey and New York were key to the outcome of the 1888 election. Likewise, Illinois and Texas were key to the outcome of the 1960 election. Florida and New Hampshire were key to the 2000 election. Ohio was the key to the 2004 election."

So I don't agree with your Battleground State reference because you act like they aren't always changing.  Trump made PA, MI, and WI battleground states this year,  he defined that in his campaign while Hillary was asleep at the wheel. 

The system was designed deliberately, and this year it worked precisely how the founders intended..


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Capers]
    #23820802 - 11/10/16 07:15 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Capers said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Because we are a union of states and the electoral vote evens out the power between the states.

It's a far better system than the popular vote... so stop whining.




I agree. Otherwise the most populous states would be controlling all the rest of us. Koods only wants the EC abolished because it would disproportionately affect rural white voters. :razz:




Liberals love authoritarianism

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Re: Electoral college [Re: hostileuniverse] * 1
    #23820876 - 11/10/16 07:32 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)



As you can see from maps like these it's possible to drive across the whole country without driving through a single county that supported clinton.

Why should all those red counties across the country have to have a Hillary as their president because one of those little pinpricks in California thinks so?

If you think about it in terms of geographical region rather than "individual person" than it makes a lot of sense.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Dawks] * 2
    #23820971 - 11/10/16 08:04 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Agreed. We'd have some worthless Democrat every election cycle. Might as well just abolish the Republican party and just let them have it.


--------------------
"I don't give nothin' to nobody, I just pay the cost to do business." - Riley "Young Reezy"-Boondocks

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

"In the days of kings and queens I was a jester."

"And then the great lord created bears... too many bears... shoulda really dialed back on the bears." Squidbillies

"Can you start speaking words instead of your damn filthy lies!"- Louise "Bobs Burgers"


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OfflineKonyap

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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho] * 1
    #23821124 - 11/10/16 08:53 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

the dems only prerogative is aiding irresponsible people and adding to hyper inflation

if everyone got food stamps, free education and welfare then I wouldn't say shit but that's how it goes
they squash out small business with taxes and expect them to pay workers when it's not in the owners best interest
while completely ignoring the banks, wall street and real estate people that bleed the country dry as well as the civil servants that buy a new luxury car every year


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Dawks] * 1
    #23822472 - 11/11/16 09:54 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Dawks said:


As you can see from maps like these it's possible to drive across the whole country without driving through a single county that supported clinton.

Why should all those red counties across the country have to have a Hillary as their president because one of those little pinpricks in California thinks so?

If you think about it in terms of geographical region rather than "individual person" than it makes a lot of sense.




How does that make more sense? Smalls areas are represented in congress. States are represented in the senate and the president represents the entire country. Why should a person in the middle of nowhere get more say than someone in a city.


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Re: Electoral college [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23822496 - 11/11/16 10:00 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

Capers said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Because we are a union of states and the electoral vote evens out the power between the states.

It's a far better system than the popular vote... so stop whining.




I agree. Otherwise the most populous states would be controlling all the rest of us. Koods only wants the EC abolished because it would disproportionately affect rural white voters. :razz:




Liberals love authoritarianism

***they would vote for a dictatorship if they thought they would be in control of it




Why does it matter what state you live in when voting for president? Everyone should get a vote and have that vote count equally.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods]
    #23822499 - 11/11/16 10:01 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)



--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Crystal G] * 1
    #23822500 - 11/11/16 10:01 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
In a true democracy an electoral college shouldn't even exist. It should be the voice of the popular vote and that's it.




in a true democracy the nation fails


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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods] * 1
    #23822504 - 11/11/16 10:02 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Why does it matter what state you live in when voting for president? Everyone should get a vote and have that vote count equally.




Your vote does count equally... for your states electors.

I'll repeat what I said in another thread... waaahhhh!


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Crystal G] * 1
    #23822508 - 11/11/16 10:04 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
In a true democracy an electoral college shouldn't even exist. It should be the voice of the popular vote and that's it.




Here's some news for you. We are not a true democracy. We are a republic.

How could you grow to adulthood and not be aware of that simple fact?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods] * 1
    #23822515 - 11/11/16 10:06 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:







that;s lovely but it doesnt change a thing

join hillary in the crying room


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Prisoner#1] * 1
    #23822521 - 11/11/16 10:08 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

He could get a job in her 'administration in exile'. Chief Tissue Carrier and Disposer.

Besides, if he's with her in exile that will spare the rest of us from his moronic statements.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods]
    #23823187 - 11/11/16 02:27 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Dawks said:

As you can see from maps like these it's possible to drive across the whole country without driving through a single county that supported clinton.

Why should all those red counties across the country have to have a Hillary as their president because one of those little pinpricks in California thinks so?

If you think about it in terms of geographical region rather than "individual person" than it makes a lot of sense.




How does that make more sense? Smalls areas are represented in congress. States are represented in the senate and the president represents the entire country. Why should a person in the middle of nowhere get more say than someone in a city.




The map doesn't mean as much as it seems but, koods, we have interest groups and lobbyists for the same reason we have a house and a senate. Laws that favor primarily cities may not favor those in rural areas and vice versa. It is set up this way in attempted fairness, an attempt to do what will never happen and what liberalism is founded on, an attempt to please everyone.

As a liberal you must admit it seems hypocritical to say minorities should be supported and then say that the president should be chosen in the interest of the majority.


Does the president represent the population or does he represent the nation in its geographical entirety?

I think it should be both. I think the individual popular vote should get electoral votes itself. It could possibly be the only plausible balance in situations like this.


--------------------
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OfflineKonyap

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Re: Electoral college [Re: CookieCrumbs]
    #23823213 - 11/11/16 02:35 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

the electorals represented their districts in a time when communication was impossible

today those states are represented by the people that did go out and vote
that's why everyones bitching


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Re: Electoral college [Re: CookieCrumbs]
    #23823239 - 11/11/16 02:46 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

CookieCrumbs said:
Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Dawks said:

As you can see from maps like these it's possible to drive across the whole country without driving through a single county that supported clinton.

Why should all those red counties across the country have to have a Hillary as their president because one of those little pinpricks in California thinks so?

If you think about it in terms of geographical region rather than "individual person" than it makes a lot of sense.




How does that make more sense? Smalls areas are represented in congress. States are represented in the senate and the president represents the entire country. Why should a person in the middle of nowhere get more say than someone in a city.




The map doesn't mean as much as it seems but, koods, we have interest groups and lobbyists for the same reason we have a house and a senate. Laws that favor primarily cities may not favor those in rural areas and vice versa. It is set up this way in attempted fairness, an attempt to do what will never happen and what liberalism is founded on, an attempt to please everyone.

As a liberal you must admit it seems hypocritical to say minorities should be supported and then say that the president should be chosen in the interest of the majority.


Does the president represent the population or does he represent the nation in its geographical entirety?

I think it should be both. I think the individual popular vote should get electoral votes itself. It could possibly be the only plausible balance in situations like this.



Geographical entity? What the hell does that even mean? You are literally advocating a system where your vote for president is weighted depending on how many people live in your state. It has nothing to do with being rural or in a city. California has some of the most desolate parts of the country. The District of Columbia is entirely urban. Why does a DC voter get three times as much say in the election as a guy on a ranch in California. It is a completely absurd system.

Being concerned about the minority doesn't mean the minority should get to elect the president. :facepalm:

If you weren't so used to the system you would think it's absolutely bizarre that someone who receives fewer votes could win an election. To rational people that kind of thing is what they call an illegitimate election.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


Edited by koods (11/11/16 02:50 PM)


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Re: Electoral college [Re: Konyap] * 1
    #23823241 - 11/11/16 02:47 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Konyap said:
the electorals represented their districts in a time when communication was impossible

today those states are represented by the people that did go out and vote
that's why everyones bitching




It was done to balance the power of the states. That function has not changed one wit.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Electoral college [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #23823276 - 11/11/16 03:00 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

koods said:
Why does it matter what state you live in when voting for president? Everyone should get a vote and have that vote count equally.




Your vote does count equally... for your states electors.

I'll repeat what I said in another thread... waaahhhh!




Waaaahhh


--------------------
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“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods] * 1
    #23823286 - 11/11/16 03:02 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

He should have just said the protesters are whiny little bitches.

If I was discussing things with him, I'd have a few wahhhhhs for him as well. But likely, not as many as for you.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods] * 1
    #23823293 - 11/11/16 03:05 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not going to debate with you if you don't exercise a little bit more reading comprehension.

1 Entirety, not entity

2 I never said it was a perfect or even good system, I only tried to explain the idea behind it and why a pure democratic vote was rejected.

3 If you even glanced at dozens of my other posts in this thread or others you would be aware that I do not support this system.

I even went as far as to suggest an idea, several by now actually, how this could be improved without being entirely scrapped.


--------------------
          :dancingbear: Free time is the only time :dancingbear:                    :thatsinteresting:


Edited by CookieCrumbs (11/11/16 03:06 PM)


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Re: Electoral college [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #23823372 - 11/11/16 03:28 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Why not scrap it? What is wrong with everyone's votes being equal.
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Konyap said:
the electorals represented their districts in a time when communication was impossible

today those states are represented by the people that did go out and vote
that's why everyones bitching




It was done to balance the power of the states. That function has not changed one wit.




What do states have to do with a national election?

Why are you for affirmative action for votes?


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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods]
    #23823391 - 11/11/16 03:35 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I'd be fine with scraping the government system, the government employees, the agencies, the economic system, and a host of other systems and the tools that enable them to be endlessly flawed.

But we won't. We won't do away with any of this without a full (and likely violent) revolution.


--------------------
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Re: Electoral college [Re: CookieCrumbs]
    #23823425 - 11/11/16 03:47 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

just force those fuckers to work 8 hours 5 days a week or at least don't pay them more than your skilled workers
that's all anybody wanted


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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods]
    #23823576 - 11/11/16 05:01 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Why not scrap it? What is wrong with everyone's votes being equal.




Because it's a great system. It balances the power of the various states. Your vote for the electors in your state are no more or less valuable than any others. You just don't like it because you'd prefer to give a big hard dry fuck to the middle of the country.

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Konyap said:
the electorals represented their districts in a time when communication was impossible

today those states are represented by the people that did go out and vote
that's why everyones bitching




It was done to balance the power of the states. That function has not changed one wit.




What do states have to do with a national election?

Why are you for affirmative action for votes?




I fear I could explain this to you a thousand times and you'll still refuse to:
A. Get it.
B. Admit you're wrong.

The United States is a union of states. The individual states select the President. It will likely and justly always be thus.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods]
    #23823691 - 11/11/16 05:37 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Why not scrap it? What is wrong with everyone's votes being equal.
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Konyap said:
the electorals represented their districts in a time when communication was impossible

today those states are represented by the people that did go out and vote
that's why everyones bitching




It was done to balance the power of the states. That function has not changed one wit.




What do states have to do with a national election?

Why are you for affirmative action for votes?




Why are you against affirmative action?

***i thought liberals defended minorities from the evils of the majority:shrug:


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http://www.countdowntotrump.com





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