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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho]
#23818082 - 11/10/16 12:36 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enjoywho said: All the people? Hillary won by 200 thousand votes. So the president really represents half the people.
It doesn't matter if a candidate steps foot. We get a 4% increase in say. With California which has the most say of all.
Entitled much? Why the fuck is your vote worth more because you live in Alaska? Wow. That's really insane that you think you deserve special treatment. You already get 2 senators despite having fewer people than a medium sized city.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Enjoywho
Rags to Bitches



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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho]
#23818089 - 11/10/16 12:39 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Different states have different needs. Cities will dominate elections. It was designed like that for a reason. Let's become a true democracy.
At the end of the day president never represents all of America. It's generally around a 2-3% difference in this case it was less then one tenth of a percent.
I don't even live in Alaska anymore I live in Washington. Was explaining to an Alaskan friend you actually lose value and and benefit from it. This is a blue state they didn't even touch on it.
-------------------- "I don't give nothin' to nobody, I just pay the cost to do business." - Riley "Young Reezy"-Boondocks "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." "In the days of kings and queens I was a jester." "And then the great lord created bears... too many bears... shoulda really dialed back on the bears." Squidbillies "Can you start speaking words instead of your damn filthy lies!"- Louise "Bobs Burgers"
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twighead
mͯó



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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho]
#23818095 - 11/10/16 12:42 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Here's what happened: The dumbass south voted for Clinton in the primaries putting her on the shit ballot
The dumbass south/midwest voted trump in the election putting him in the general and didn't do shit for the demo candidate they chose. Dumb fucking primaries. 
See what's happening here?
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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods]
#23818098 - 11/10/16 12:44 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Just think about this:
The democrats got more total votes in house races
The democrats got more total votes in senate races
The democrats got more total votes in the presidential race
Yet the republicans have control of everything.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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koods
Ribbit



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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho] 3
#23818108 - 11/10/16 12:51 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enjoywho said:

Different states have different needs. Cities will dominate elections. It was designed like that for a reason. Let's become a true democracy.
At the end of the day president never represents all of America. It's generally around a 2-3% difference in this case it was less then one tenth of a percent.
I don't even live in Alaska anymore I live in Washington. Was explaining to an Alaskan friend you actually lose value and and benefit from it. This is a blue state they didn't even touch on it.
The president does not represent states. The senate is where states get their representation.
Jesus Christ, have you ever taken a civics course. This a representitve democracy. The president represents the all the people in the country and should be elected by the people not an electoral college. A true democracy everyone gets to vote on everything and theee is no president.
Whatever the original intent of the EC was, it now just makes candidates focus on very limited areas. Why did the candidates have dozens of rallies within a hundred miles of philly while never Setting foot in California or Idaho or whatever? The EC.
Edited by koods (11/10/16 12:56 AM)
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ohcrapitsnico
The Other One


Registered: 06/06/09
Posts: 2,720
Loc: Houston
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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods]
#23818109 - 11/10/16 12:51 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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As long as Alaska has its voice that's all that matters, California doesn't matter for sure.
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Crystal G



Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho]
#23818119 - 11/10/16 12:58 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enjoywho said:
Quote:
Crystal G said: In a true democracy an electoral college shouldn't even exist. It should be the voice of the popular vote and that's it.
This is what cracks me up most. We aren't a true democracy. We're a Republic. Am I the only one that paid attention in us government.
Yeah... that's the point. I'm saying we should become a formal democracy.
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Enjoywho
Rags to Bitches



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Re: Electoral college [Re: Enjoywho]
#23818126 - 11/10/16 01:02 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Democracy is fundamentally flawed. That's why you have people that don't even know we aren't a democracy. We're a Republic. At the state level we are a democracy.
Whoever said it is right. We have Congress. Which is essentially like the European Union. I'll find the source in a minute but voter turnout is abysmal. 46% turn out to vote for president. 320 million population. 120 million votes. Subtract kids under 18. But midterms are even worse. Where your vote does matter. 26% over 18 turn out for midterms.
I've never voted for president but I do pay a lot of attention to my senators and house representatives and vote. As that is where it's won. Plus you have all the bills for your state for that election cycle.
So maybe a true democracy would be better. Washington is overwhelmingly Democratic. As soon as it hit pierce, Thurston, and king and county it straight dunked the rural areas. Who knows all government philosophies come with there pros and cons.
The dnc fucked up by blacking out Bernie. He had the same stance as trump. Fuck big government. I would have voted for him. But they chose a career politician. And half the population especially in swing states spoke out.
The dnc fucked that up hard. I think Bernie would have won that one. I don't trust Hillary. We have 3 decades of Hillary Clinton and things she's done in the public eye. They fucked up and we all pay for it.
-------------------- "I don't give nothin' to nobody, I just pay the cost to do business." - Riley "Young Reezy"-Boondocks "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." "In the days of kings and queens I was a jester." "And then the great lord created bears... too many bears... shoulda really dialed back on the bears." Squidbillies "Can you start speaking words instead of your damn filthy lies!"- Louise "Bobs Burgers"
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koods
Ribbit



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Re: Electoral college [Re: Crystal G]
#23818149 - 11/10/16 01:15 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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The intent of the electoral college was to incentivize campaigning in more diverse areas. In practice does the opposite and incentivized campaigning a few states only. These states get all the attention and the rest get none. Its failure to work as intended is reason enough to abandon it, but it turns out it also disenfranchises the actual winners of presidential races. The EC cannot be justified and must go. Democracies are flawed but that doesn't mean you don't try to fix the flaws when they arise.
You keep talking about a true democracy. That is totally irrelevant to this convo. The order that ballots are counted in Washington state is irrelevant. The dnc is irrelevant.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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koods
Ribbit



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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods]
#23818160 - 11/10/16 01:23 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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The electoral college supresses turnout as well. why vote if you know your state is reliably in your party's column. A popular vote system makes state totals irrelevant. Every vote counts.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Konyap

Registered: 06/30/07
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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods]
#23818169 - 11/10/16 01:28 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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yeah electoral college has no place when voting for a federal candidate
it was there so that the people in charge could choose a candidate if they thought their voters were uninformed btw it has nothing to do with "agri points"
Edited by Konyap (11/10/16 01:28 AM)
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Crystal G



Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods]
#23818184 - 11/10/16 01:35 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
koods said: The electoral college supresses turnout as well. why vote if you know your state is reliably in your party's column. A popular vote system makes state totals irrelevant. Every vote counts.
In Australia they made voting mandatory among all citizens. Maybe the USA should try something similar.
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Konyap

Registered: 06/30/07
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Re: Electoral college [Re: Konyap]
#23818185 - 11/10/16 01:35 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Article II, Section 1, Clause 3 of the Constitution provided the original plan by which the electors chose the president and vice president. Under the original plan, the candidate who received a majority of votes from the electors would become president; the candidate receiving the second most votes would become vice president.
Could you imagine Trump and Hilary together?
Quote:
The emergence of political parties and nationally coordinated election campaigns soon complicated matters in the elections of 1796 and 1800. In 1796, Federalist Party candidate John Adams won the presidential election. Finishing in second place was Democratic-Republican Party candidate Thomas Jefferson, the Federalists' opponent, who became the vice president. This resulted in the President and Vice President not being of the same political party. In 1800, the Democratic-Republican Party again nominated Jefferson for president, and also nominated Aaron Burr for vice president. After the election, Jefferson and Burr both obtained a majority of electoral votes, but tied one another with 73 votes each. Since ballots did not distinguish between votes for president and votes for vice president, every ballot cast for Burr technically counted as a vote for him to become president, despite Jefferson clearly being his party's first choice. Lacking a clear winner by constitutional standards, the election had to be decided by the House of Representatives pursuant to the Constitution's contingency election provision. Having already lost the presidential contest, Federalist Party representatives in the lame duck House session seized upon the opportunity to embarrass their opposition and attempted to elect Burr over Jefferson. The House deadlocked for 35 ballots as neither candidate received the necessary majority vote of the state delegations in the House (the votes of nine states were needed for an election). Jefferson achieved electoral victory on the 36th ballot, but only after Federalist Party leader Alexander Hamilton – who disfavored Burr's personal character more than Jefferson's policies – had made known his preference for Jefferson. Responding to the problems from those elections, the Congress proposed the Twelfth Amendment in 1803 – prescribing electors cast separate ballots for president and vice president – to replace the system outlined
Edited by Konyap (11/10/16 01:37 AM)
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Konyap

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Re: Electoral college [Re: Crystal G]
#23818188 - 11/10/16 01:38 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Crystal G said:
Quote:
koods said: The electoral college supresses turnout as well. why vote if you know your state is reliably in your party's column. A popular vote system makes state totals irrelevant. Every vote counts.
In Australia they made voting mandatory among all citizens. Maybe the USA should try something similar.
Please god no they already call my house 3x a day if we had the day off that would be a different story
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rackem



Registered: 11/27/09
Posts: 14,024
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Re: Electoral college [Re: Konyap]
#23818190 - 11/10/16 01:39 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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i think the electoral college votes should be split among how the people of the state vote. like if the state has 10 electoral and the split between the 2 parties is 60/40 it should be accounted for according to the votes.
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Crystal G



Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
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Re: Electoral college [Re: Konyap]
#23818191 - 11/10/16 01:40 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Konyap said:
Quote:
Crystal G said:
Quote:
koods said: The electoral college supresses turnout as well. why vote if you know your state is reliably in your party's column. A popular vote system makes state totals irrelevant. Every vote counts.
In Australia they made voting mandatory among all citizens. Maybe the USA should try something similar.
Please god no they already call my house 3x a day if we had the day off that would be a different story
They do that too, I believe. I know in India voting is a national holiday and everybody is given the day off to go vote.
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koods
Ribbit



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Re: Electoral college [Re: Konyap]
#23818192 - 11/10/16 01:40 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ok. I guess that is a popular myth becasue everyone says it. Makes sense that it's wrong becasue there is nothing about the EC system that motivates a campaign to focus on agriculture area instead of cities. There are plenty of rallies in cities these days - bit only in swing state.
The whole idea of a popular vote is that states become irrelevant. The value of your vote isn't weighted or dependent on where you live, everyone has the same value.
The other reason why the EC stupid is it requires the winner to get a majority of the electoral votes (270). There is a chance of a tie as well. If nobody gets 270, then essentially the election is void and the house of representives gets to pick the presidents. With two contestant, this rarely happens. Once you have more than two, it becomes more and more likely that nobody gets 270 and the election is found. This makes a competitive 3 way race nearly impossible.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Konyap

Registered: 06/30/07
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Re: Electoral college [Re: koods]
#23818195 - 11/10/16 01:41 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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More of what I talked about, I don't know much about gov't btw I'm just copy&pasta
Quote:
During the 1836 election, Virginia's entire 23-man electoral delegation faithlessly voted against victorious Democratic Party Vice Presidential Candidate Richard Mentor Johnson[1] due to Johnson's openly admitted, publicized, long-term interracial relationship with his slave, Julia Chinn. The loss of Virginia's support caused Johnson to fall one electoral vote short of a majority, causing the Vice Presidential election to be thrown into the U.S. Senate for the only time in American history. However, Virginia's electors voted for Martin Van Buren as pledged, meaning the presidential election itself was not in dispute. The U.S. Senate ultimately elected Johnson anyway after a party-line vote.[citation needed] Despite 157 instances of faithlessness as of 2015, faithless electors have not yet affected the results or ultimate outcome of any other presidential election
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Konyap

Registered: 06/30/07
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Re: Electoral college [Re: Konyap]
#23818206 - 11/10/16 01:50 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Edited by Konyap (11/10/16 01:50 AM)
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koods
Ribbit



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Re: Electoral college [Re: rackem]
#23818210 - 11/10/16 01:54 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
rackem said: i think the electoral college votes should be split among how the people of the state vote. like if the state has 10 electoral and the split between the 2 parties is 60/40 it should be accounted for according to the votes.
Well, that lowers the resolution of the vote tallies. Most of the states the other day were won by less than five percent. How do you divide up the EC votes so that they represent the percentages. If you have 4 EC votes to play with and a vote of 51 to 49, there is no way to fairly distribute the EC votes. 2 and 2 shortchanges the leader and 3 to 1 short changes the trailer.
This brings up another concern. States already have the power to decide how the electoral college comes are distributed, all or nothing or proportional. If you start assigning votes to each congressional district, then you start gerrymandering the presidential race. You could end up with a candidate winning a landslide popular vote and losing the EC college,
The only method that cannot be gerrymandered or manipulated is the nationwide popular vote.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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