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Ezuma
Gontish Wizard



Registered: 12/02/13
Posts: 8,423
Loc: Roke
Last seen: 10 months, 21 days
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Quote:
Celestial Traveler said:
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Ezuma said:
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greencrush420 said: The constant flaming anyone who is religious is the #1 reason why. Every "Religious people are stupid" post about sends me over the edge. If I said, "homosexuals are abominations and will burn in hell", it would be an atrocity , but call a religious person a mentally incompetent lunatic, and that's fine. How hypocritical...
well flaming religious folks is all well and good, but I must point out there is a world of difference between being religious and being a homosexual.
1. being gay is not a choice as I understand it. 2. gayness is not an ideology that puts forth unfounded arguments about the nature and purpose of reality, or clings to certain principles of morality
while insulting religious people offhand is no good, challenging their poorly defended and reasoned beliefs is I think, a duty in the service of mankind and the preservation of logical discourse in the face of base emotional wishful thinking, and I would not be surprised if you've run into either of these, you've got every right to complain about the former and none to whine about the latter
The problem I have with religious criticisms like these, is that while the criticisms are valid, the people who make them often hold equally irrational and absurd views based on their experiences with drugs.
often, in my case though I don't really have any beliefs based on my drug experiences, except my love of logic was kind of born from them, as I realized given the craziness of reality and the human mind, logic is the only way of keeping myself in check
my psychedelic conclusions almost seem the opposite to most, in that they affirm for me the value of philosophy, the fickleness of experience and belief, and the absurd nature of reality, and of positing meaning within such a reality
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moonrockmushy
High on Spite



Registered: 07/01/05
Posts: 19,067
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Re: I have truly grown to hate this forum. [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
#23813164 - 11/08/16 03:30 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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I mean what really used to get my goat is that there is a written anti-racist policy in the description of the pub (edit- oh wait I guess it is gone now, have at it racists), yet there are racists like qman and webster who have persisted for years. That made me hate this place for a while. I think in the end as long as you are an established poster and aren't melting all over the place you can pretty much get away with any sorts of opinions, which I guess is the way it should be in the end.
Edited by moonrockmushy (11/08/16 03:32 PM)
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Celestial Traveler
Random Observer



Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 7,639
Loc: Idaho
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Re: I have truly grown to hate this forum. [Re: Ezuma]
#23813167 - 11/08/16 03:32 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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I was speaking generally, not specifically about you. Although you probably understood that.
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Ezuma
Gontish Wizard



Registered: 12/02/13
Posts: 8,423
Loc: Roke
Last seen: 10 months, 21 days
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Re: I have truly grown to hate this forum. [Re: moonrockmushy]
#23813172 - 11/08/16 03:33 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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that's all very true
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Ezuma
Gontish Wizard



Registered: 12/02/13
Posts: 8,423
Loc: Roke
Last seen: 10 months, 21 days
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Quote:
Celestial Traveler said: I was speaking generally, not specifically about you. Although you probably understood that.
ya, you're quite right though one of the dangers of logic is that humans as emotional beings, will often think they are being logical when they are in fact not, which is why debate and argumentation are always valid and necessary
you raised a good point sir
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tyrannicalrex
Strange R



Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 38,323
Loc: subtropics
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Re: I have truly grown to hate this forum. [Re: greencrush420]
#23813210 - 11/08/16 03:49 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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spirit_shadow said: As humanity decends into the age of technology they lose not only a part of themselves but also the connectedness of the whole.
I would say it is changing human interaction as a whole. There is no use fighting it, it's here, and it will only increase/mutate into something more.
Quote:
Ezuma said:
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greencrush420 said: Illogical is subjective. For instance, to me, it is illogical to postulate that all life evolved from a single,, self replicating, genetic code containing cell, and that this theory disproves all religion and all creation theories. Why? Well, from whence came this almighty, self-replicating, evolving, genetic code containing cell? Where the hell did this first cell that everyone is always babbling about come from? Oh, it just sprang into being, huh? Just like that "wacko" story in the Bible, huh? Funny how the thing that is supposed to be a flaw in my belief, is supposed to be a strength in yours. Quite the paradox.
here you go: any conception of the universe breaks down to 'we don't know' at some point. The fact is, we don't know why things exist at all, where they came from, or what purpose they might serve. Anyone claiming they 'know' is deluded, including pro-science types who propose their pet theory with religious intensity.
from the perspective of non-logical intuitive belief, any argument is as valid as any other. This means any conception of the cosmos, without the application of logic, is just as 'right' as your own. Whether there are five gods, two, one, whether god is male, female, indescribable and unknowable, embodied in all of us, a physical unicorn on a distant planet etc, are all equally valid and useless theories, for the same reason: they are based on nothing, can't be proven or disproved through exploration of the world, and so ought not to influence our behavior.
god or gods may well exist, I can't know, but if I set myself believing in one particular deity, to the exclusion of others, I'm doing myself a disservice. That deity has no more reason to exist than any other conception of god, and so by believing in one god so as to adore and appease him, I could potentially anger a multitude of others who are just as likely to exist or not exist. This alone makes adherence to a particular vision of god illogical, but there's even more wrong with this approach.
Since the human mind can generate theory of such dazzling complexity and variety, and so many conflicting ideologies have risen and fallen over millennium (and most are now dismissed off hand, despite being just as likely as the Christian or Muslim conceptions), it becomes obvious most theories are false. If your own theory is not built upon observation and verifiable logic -and thus a provisional model that can adapt to new information rather than dogmatic- it is most likely false, and you then are wasting your time believing in it and letting it affect your decision making. This is why the principle of Occam's razor is so important: the more assumptions one has to make in order for a theory to work, the less likely the theory is to be accurate, when it comes to a shortage of observable facts.
If you argue that god made the universe, it is therefore less logical than saying 'the universe just is'. Neither theory is very satisfying, but the second, being simpler in its assumptions, is more logical.
If you pursue with the 'there must be a god or how would the universe exist', you must then ask 'well if there is a god, where did it come from, and why does it exist?'. In either case it boils down to: no one knows.
Ya see?
Interesting POV, I like it. I like your posts.
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CookieCrumbs said: How far you take the connection is always up to you. You and the other. Likewise it's completely possible (and common) to be physically around people and even engaged with them but not connected to them.
I like how you seem to look at many facets of a situation and even if you disagree with them you can still discuss it logically. I like your posts too.
Quote:
greencrush420 said: Illogical is subjective. For instance, to me, it is illogical to postulate that all life evolved from a single,, self replicating, genetic code containing cell, and that this theory disproves all religion and all creation theories. Why? Well, from whence came this almighty, self-replicating, evolving, genetic code containing cell? Where the hell did this first cell that everyone is always babbling about come from? Oh, it just sprang into being, huh? Just like that "wacko" story in the Bible, huh? Funny how the thing that is supposed to be a flaw in my belief, is supposed to be a strength in yours. Quite the paradox.
You are very young still and have a lot more growing to do mentally. Sometimes peoples view(s) change after living longer. I don't think I would want to meet the 22yo me, I'm not sure, but it might be interesting. There are 4 major topics in the USA, gays, god, guns, and ganja. These are never ending arguments/discussions. Participate when you like, but don't get too offended when someone says something offensive, especially online. I have gotten pretty heated up before and realized I was being silly for letting an online persona get to me! LOL! This was when I first got into forums and didn't really know how they could be. This is my favorite place to waste time. Maybe you should frequent other places in here for a while. Don't hate, appreciate, elevate, and try not to hate !
Just for the record I'd like to say I have never flamed (maybe I have, IDK ) or gotten banned for flaming, and I hope no one misconstrued any posts I have made as flaming/insulting etc...
Edited by tyrannicalrex (11/08/16 03:50 PM)
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 8 hours, 22 minutes
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Re: I have truly grown to hate this forum. [Re: moonrockmushy] 1
#23813244 - 11/08/16 04:05 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
moonrockmushy said: I mean what really used to get my goat is that there is a written anti-racist policy in the description of the pub (edit- oh wait I guess it is gone now, have at it racists), yet there are racists like qman and webster who have persisted for years. That made me hate this place for a while. I think in the end as long as you are an established poster and aren't melting all over the place you can pretty much get away with any sorts of opinions, which I guess is the way it should be in the end.
"racists like qman"
More like yourself.
"get away with any sorts of opinions"
Yeah, that's what people with open minds support, why you even question that process is very telling.
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moonrockmushy
High on Spite



Registered: 07/01/05
Posts: 19,067
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Re: I have truly grown to hate this forum. [Re: qman]
#23813255 - 11/08/16 04:10 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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I more questioned the fact that at the time there was a written policy against racism. I wouldn't have made an issue if I didn't see letting that slide as being a cognizant overlooking of the written anti-racist standing.
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greencrush420



Registered: 04/14/13
Posts: 1,014
Loc: U.S.A
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Re: I have truly grown to hate this forum. [Re: Ezuma]
#23814489 - 11/08/16 10:49 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ezuma said:
Quote:
greencrush420 said: Illogical is subjective. For instance, to me, it is illogical to postulate that all life evolved from a single,, self replicating, genetic code containing cell, and that this theory disproves all religion and all creation theories. Why? Well, from whence came this almighty, self-replicating, evolving, genetic code containing cell? Where the hell did this first cell that everyone is always babbling about come from? Oh, it just sprang into being, huh? Just like that "wacko" story in the Bible, huh? Funny how the thing that is supposed to be a flaw in my belief, is supposed to be a strength in yours. Quite the paradox.
here you go: any conception of the universe breaks down to 'we don't know' at some point. The fact is, we don't know why things exist at all, where they came from, or what purpose they might serve. Anyone claiming they 'know' is deluded, including pro-science types who propose their pet theory with religious intensity.
from the perspective of non-logical intuitive belief, any argument is as valid as any other. This means any conception of the cosmos, without the application of logic, is just as 'right' as your own. Whether there are five gods, two, one, whether god is male, female, indescribable and unknowable, embodied in all of us, a physical unicorn on a distant planet etc, are all equally valid and useless theories, for the same reason: they are based on nothing, can't be proven or disproved through exploration of the world, and so ought not to influence our behavior.
god or gods may well exist, I can't know, but if I set myself believing in one particular deity, to the exclusion of others, I'm doing myself a disservice. That deity has no more reason to exist than any other conception of god, and so by believing in one god so as to adore and appease him, I could potentially anger a multitude of others who are just as likely to exist or not exist. This alone makes adherence to a particular vision of god illogical, but there's even more wrong with this approach.
Since the human mind can generate theory of such dazzling complexity and variety, and so many conflicting ideologies have risen and fallen over millennium (and most are now dismissed off hand, despite being just as likely as the Christian or Muslim conceptions), it becomes obvious most theories are false. If your own theory is not built upon observation and verifiable logic -and thus a provisional model that can adapt to new information rather than dogmatic- it is most likely false, and you then are wasting your time believing in it and letting it affect your decision making. This is why the principle of Occam's razor is so important: the more assumptions one has to make in order for a theory to work, the less likely the theory is to be accurate, when it comes to a shortage of observable facts.
If you argue that god made the universe, it is therefore less logical than saying 'the universe just is'. Neither theory is very satisfying, but the second, being simpler in its assumptions, is more logical.
If you pursue with the 'there must be a god or how would the universe exist', you must then ask 'well if there is a god, where did it come from, and why does it exist?'. In either case it boils down to: no one knows.
Ya see?
I see. You haven't disproven anything to me though. 1. You never did anything to show why I am illogical for discounting evolution. I am right. The beginnings are not accounted for by evolution. Science can not answer my question.
2.. You're right, every theory boils down to, "we don't really know". That's the point, religion can't be disproven. Science can't be proven. It's all speculation based on the word of other human beings. That said, I know in my heart. 3. While I follow the Christian religion, I happen to believe that the deities in most world religions are one and the same, and that the religious texts of the varied religions are simply , slightly different interpretations of the same thing.
So, yes, I am a Christian, but to me that means I have chosen to follow a particular understanding of a god which is different from the understanding others have of the same god. See how the whole portion of your argument regarding discounting one religion while following another, does not apply here. I do not ever criticize others based on their religious view, or discount their beliefs.
Namaste, we are one. It's in my sig.
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greencrush420



Registered: 04/14/13
Posts: 1,014
Loc: U.S.A
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Re: I have truly grown to hate this forum. [Re: greencrush420]
#23814533 - 11/08/16 11:01 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
tyrannicalrex said:You are very young still and have a lot more growing to do mentally. Sometimes peoples view(s) change after living longer. I don't think I would want to meet the 22yo me, I'm not sure, but it might be interesting.
Well, for one thing, you severely underestimate my age. While you may be older, I don't see how it's relevant. As far as changing points of view, I agree with you! They certainly do. I, for instance, was once an atheist. Crazy, huh? I was young and naïve back then, following popular culture (and atheism is what's popular) blindly. Then, I grew, I learned, I experienced many things (including things you will never experience, just as you have experienced things that I never will), I had children and raised them, I buried people close to me, and I changed. For you to tell me that I am young and will change is silly. You don't even know me.
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mycoprog
Modular Heretic



Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 797
Loc: N. America
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Re: I have truly grown to hate this forum. [Re: greencrush420]
#23814559 - 11/08/16 11:07 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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If one can believe that "God" was just there in the beginning, it's really not a big stretch from that to believing an organism was just there.
The beginning/end is a human concept. maybe there doesn't have to be a beginning.
--------------------
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tyrannicalrex
Strange R



Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 38,323
Loc: subtropics
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Re: I have truly grown to hate this forum. [Re: greencrush420]
#23814580 - 11/08/16 11:14 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
greencrush420 said:
Quote:
tyrannicalrex said:You are very young still and have a lot more growing to do mentally. Sometimes peoples view(s) change after living longer. I don't think I would want to meet the 22yo me, I'm not sure, but it might be interesting.
Well, for one thing, you severely underestimate my age. While you may be older, I don't see how it's relevant. As far as changing points of view, I agree with you! They certainly do. I, for instance, was once an atheist. Crazy, huh? I was young and naïve back then, following popular culture (and atheism is what's popular) blindly. Then, I grew, I learned, I experienced many things (including things you will never experience, just as you have experienced things that I never will), I had children and raised them, I buried people close to me, and I changed. For you to tell me that I am young and will change is silly. You don't even know me.
I apologize, I thought you stated you were only 22. I also agree with the answer you gave ezuma, this is what debating/discussing is all about. (I'm agnostic leaning towards the gaia earth theory, and that is "god" to me) Congratulations on your accomplishments!
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greencrush420



Registered: 04/14/13
Posts: 1,014
Loc: U.S.A
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Re: I have truly grown to hate this forum. [Re: mycoprog]
#23814627 - 11/08/16 11:30 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
mycoprog said: If one can believe that "God" was just there in the beginning, it's really not a big stretch from that to believing an organism was just there.
The beginning/end is a human concept. maybe there doesn't have to be a beginning.
Yes yes, that is my point. If a single celled organism could just spring into existence, then why not god? Why so vehemently attack something you have no proof against? Fear? It's silly and not in line with the supposed values of the community.
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Ezuma
Gontish Wizard



Registered: 12/02/13
Posts: 8,423
Loc: Roke
Last seen: 10 months, 21 days
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Re: I have truly grown to hate this forum. [Re: greencrush420] 1
#23823893 - 11/11/16 06:55 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
greencrush420 said:
Quote:
Ezuma said:
Quote:
greencrush420 said: Illogical is subjective. For instance, to me, it is illogical to postulate that all life evolved from a single,, self replicating, genetic code containing cell, and that this theory disproves all religion and all creation theories. Why? Well, from whence came this almighty, self-replicating, evolving, genetic code containing cell? Where the hell did this first cell that everyone is always babbling about come from? Oh, it just sprang into being, huh? Just like that "wacko" story in the Bible, huh? Funny how the thing that is supposed to be a flaw in my belief, is supposed to be a strength in yours. Quite the paradox.
here you go: any conception of the universe breaks down to 'we don't know' at some point. The fact is, we don't know why things exist at all, where they came from, or what purpose they might serve. Anyone claiming they 'know' is deluded, including pro-science types who propose their pet theory with religious intensity.
from the perspective of non-logical intuitive belief, any argument is as valid as any other. This means any conception of the cosmos, without the application of logic, is just as 'right' as your own. Whether there are five gods, two, one, whether god is male, female, indescribable and unknowable, embodied in all of us, a physical unicorn on a distant planet etc, are all equally valid and useless theories, for the same reason: they are based on nothing, can't be proven or disproved through exploration of the world, and so ought not to influence our behavior.
god or gods may well exist, I can't know, but if I set myself believing in one particular deity, to the exclusion of others, I'm doing myself a disservice. That deity has no more reason to exist than any other conception of god, and so by believing in one god so as to adore and appease him, I could potentially anger a multitude of others who are just as likely to exist or not exist. This alone makes adherence to a particular vision of god illogical, but there's even more wrong with this approach.
Since the human mind can generate theory of such dazzling complexity and variety, and so many conflicting ideologies have risen and fallen over millennium (and most are now dismissed off hand, despite being just as likely as the Christian or Muslim conceptions), it becomes obvious most theories are false. If your own theory is not built upon observation and verifiable logic -and thus a provisional model that can adapt to new information rather than dogmatic- it is most likely false, and you then are wasting your time believing in it and letting it affect your decision making. This is why the principle of Occam's razor is so important: the more assumptions one has to make in order for a theory to work, the less likely the theory is to be accurate, when it comes to a shortage of observable facts.
If you argue that god made the universe, it is therefore less logical than saying 'the universe just is'. Neither theory is very satisfying, but the second, being simpler in its assumptions, is more logical.
If you pursue with the 'there must be a god or how would the universe exist', you must then ask 'well if there is a god, where did it come from, and why does it exist?'. In either case it boils down to: no one knows.
Ya see?
I see. You haven't disproven anything to me though. 1. You never did anything to show why I am illogical for discounting evolution. I am right. The beginnings are not accounted for by evolution. Science can not answer my question.
2.. You're right, every theory boils down to, "we don't really know". That's the point, religion can't be disproven. Science can't be proven. It's all speculation based on the word of other human beings. That said, I know in my heart. 3. While I follow the Christian religion, I happen to believe that the deities in most world religions are one and the same, and that the religious texts of the varied religions are simply , slightly different interpretations of the same thing.
So, yes, I am a Christian, but to me that means I have chosen to follow a particular understanding of a god which is different from the understanding others have of the same god. See how the whole portion of your argument regarding discounting one religion while following another, does not apply here. I do not ever criticize others based on their religious view, or discount their beliefs.
Namaste, we are one. It's in my sig.
I know I'm late to the party but just noticed you replied so here goes: 1. Evolution is demosntrable through logical observation. It does not explain the universe, nor is it supposed to, it's merely a theory attempting to explain why species transform into other species, over long periods of time, it does nothing to explain why, or where the leap from dead matter to life came in. For sure, if there is a divine spark, it could be present at that moment. We don't however, know what sort of spark, why it existed, if it is still active or aone time phenomenon, etc, so it is illogical to make judgement on it's intent and character, based on scant information. (I don't discount the divine offhand, so much as say I'm fairly sure something is going on somewhere in this process, but I don't have enough information to tell you what that is, so it's best not to throw your chips in).
2. Therein lies the problem, and the value of science. Since it is so hard to know truth, after all, different people feel very strongly, in their heart of hearts, that different things -conflicting things- are true. These ideas, when grounded enough in observable facts, can be proven false, definitively. A scientific theory can be demonstrated to be mostly likely true, and that's the best we've got, but it's a whole lot better than going on hunches. The value of logic and scientific approaches is that it's ideas can be changed, and are clearly defined to the point they can be tested and disproven. That small detail, make's all the difference between speculative and baseless fantasy -even if by chance some of it may be true- and an effective but provisional world model.
3. Sure, many think something like that, I'm inclined to agree to an extent, that all religions have at their center a really true spark, an experience which is translated -and mistranslated, and stretched to fit fickle human conceptions and pre-existing assumptions so that we ended up with the smorgasbord of religions we have today. In my view, science can also be seen as another expression of fascination with this inspiring central 'something'. I actually feel certain a lot of scientific thinking is wrong, or over-simplistic and missing an awful lot of context. However, by their nature, these theories have more rigor and more observable, testable integrity than any theology. Which isn't to say religious and spiritual beliefs have no value, far from it, but that they must be recognized as personal, fallible, and not as good a basis for achieving results in interaction with the external world, and society. Even your conception, that all these beliefs are the same, or referencing the same core, may well be true, but it in itself is another belief, not universally held by any means, and in asserting you must always provide proof (even though I suspect you are right myself)
ultimately I don't know if we disagree on as much as it first seemed, unless I am greatly mistaken.
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SARAtonin
Violent Dreams


Registered: 09/28/11
Posts: 15,911
Loc: Deutschland
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Re: I have truly grown to hate this forum. [Re: zZZz]
#23823906 - 11/11/16 07:04 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zZZz said:
Quote:
Religions are just ideas and if you can't criticize ideas then there is no hope for humanity.
Theyre beliefs, just like gay folks believe they are attracted to the same sex, it's same principal..
Belief has nothing to do with attraction.
-------------------- God kills indiscriminately and so shall we. For no creatures under God are as we are none so like him as ourselves. Want to join a cult? Click for details…
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
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Re: I have truly grown to hate this forum. [Re: SARAtonin] 2
#23823960 - 11/11/16 07:30 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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i would literally say fucking piss on christ's face and shit on the cross and blessed whore and the bastard son.
but then i might get banned.
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