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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Should a private citizen be able to own... [Re: ]
    #2385699 - 02/28/04 02:54 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

1) no





Hang on mush, I thought one of the main defences of the pro-gun people is it "protects us against tyranny". You arn't going to get much protection from tyranny firing a .38 special at an F-16. A tactical nuke apeice would certainly make any tyranny think twice.


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OfflineProtester
Stoner ReekingHavok

Registered: 04/10/03
Posts: 361
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
Re: Should a private citizen be able to own... [Re: Xlea321]
    #2385841 - 02/28/04 03:47 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

yes to all 3 if a government can own it why not any one else, we prolly have more sense of proper use for them then they do.


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I work my shitty 9-5 and I pay my taxes, I'm not hurting anybody else. So why do you care what i do in my spare time.


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OfflineGolem
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Registered: 06/27/02
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Re: Should a private citizen be able to own... [Re: Protester]
    #2387979 - 02/29/04 02:40 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

1. yes, own but not probably use
2. yes
3. yes


--------------------
The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know.


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
Administrator

Registered: 07/10/99
Posts: 6,487
Re: Should a private citizen be able to own... [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2388141 - 02/29/04 04:40 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

1. Yes, but you must have a backround check.If you're not a violent criminal, then yes.
2. Yes
3. Yes


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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Anonymous

Re: Should a private citizen be able to own... [Re: Xlea321]
    #2388761 - 02/29/04 01:38 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Hang on mush, I thought one of the main defences of the pro-gun people is it "protects us against tyranny". You arn't going to get much protection from tyranny firing a .38 special at an F-16. A tactical nuke apeice would certainly make any tyranny think twice.

you trying to tell me that you think private citizens should be allowed to keep nuclear weapons?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Should a private citizen be able to own... [Re: ]
    #2388785 - 02/29/04 01:53 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

No I don't but I was just wondering how far you took this "being armed protects us against tyranny" NRA argument. What protection does a .38 special give you against an F-16?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
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Re: Should a private citizen be able to own... [Re: Xlea321]
    #2388846 - 02/29/04 02:17 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

It would take a lucky shot indeed to bring down an F-16 in flight. It could do wonders aginst one on the ground though. Not to mention the crew who services and maintains them, the drivers of the trucks delivering fuel or parts, the cooks, and everyone on the ground.

And while .38 special seems to be your weapon of choice, there are hunting rifles and the like that can do far more damage from long distances.

Perhaps a new "phrase of the week" is in order?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Re: Should a private citizen be able to own... [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2388851 - 02/29/04 02:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

1. Only if it's me.
2. With the proper permits, you can.
3. Only if it's me.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: Should a private citizen be able to own... [Re: Xlea321]
    #2389302 - 02/29/04 09:58 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

No I don't but I was just wondering how far you took this "being armed protects us against tyranny" NRA argument. What protection does a .38 special give you against an F-16?

there is a balance. saying that citizens shouldn't be allowed to own small arms is almost as stupid as saying that they should be able to own nukes.

how can you ignore the fact that being armed does protect against tyranny? what is the last line of defense against oppression, if not arms in the hands of common citizens? what happened to all the european monarchs? why do they no longer have absolute power as they once did?

if the government has all of the guns, they have all of the power.

that's why 6 million disarmed european jews, 20 million disarmed russians and ukranians, 20 million disarmed chinese, 1.5 million disarmed armenians in turkey, 2 million disarmed cambodian "educated people", 300,000 disarmed ugandan christians, and 100,000 disarmed mayans in guatemala were able to be rounded up and killed by their governments in the last century.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Should a private citizen be able to own... [Re: ]
    #2389910 - 03/01/04 02:04 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

So where do you draw the line? Should citizens have rocket launchers to fight off helicopters? Anti-tank missiles?

that's why 6 million disarmed european jews...

Nah, I'll need more evidence before I can accept that gun ownership would have stopped any of that.


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Anonymous

Re: Should a private citizen be able to own... [Re: Xlea321]
    #2390299 - 03/01/04 07:26 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

So where do you draw the line?

citizens should be allowed to keep rifles, shotguns, and pistols. more specifically, a citizen, without a special permit, should be allowed to own any projectile weapon that is not fully automatic, does not have a bore width greater than 20 mm, and does not fire explosive or incendiary ordnance.

Should citizens have rocket launchers to fight off helicopters? Anti-tank missiles?

not in this country.

Nah, I'll need more evidence before I can accept that gun ownership would have stopped any of that.

it wouldn't have hurt. the nazis were able to round up and execute 10 million people. if only 10% of those were able bodied males with guns, they'd have had to go through a million armed men to kill that many people. instead, it was like herding sheep. they didn't have a chance. of all the terrible acts of genocide in the past century, not one was commited against an armed people.


Edited by mushmaster (03/01/04 09:35 AM)


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Registered: 01/04/04
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Last seen: 17 years, 8 months
Re: Should a private citizen be able to own... [Re: ]
    #2390528 - 03/01/04 10:31 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
there is a balance. saying that citizens shouldn't be allowed to own small arms is almost as stupid as saying that they should be able to own nukes.




Excellent! Usually when 2 extremes are involved, both are, to a degree, right and wrong,but mainly wrong. THe middle ground, most commonly, is right.
Quote:


how can you ignore the fact that being armed does protect against tyranny?




Ignoring facts, derailing threads and using trite "phrases ofthe week" sd LDS describes them, are all alexs forte!


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
addict
Registered: 01/04/04
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Re: Should a private citizen be able to own... [Re: Xlea321]
    #2390532 - 03/01/04 10:34 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Hang on mush, I thought one of the main defences of the pro-gun people is it "protects us against tyranny". You arn't going to get much protection from tyranny firing a .38 special at an F-16. A tactical nuke apeice would certainly make any tyranny think twice.




The biggest defense is that people who haven't commited a crime shouldn't be treated like those that have. If I haven't done anything that would show that I am not able to use my Constitutional right to own firearms, then I shouldn't have my rights to do so impinged. It's funny how people are against firearms to prevent violence, if I truely wanted to commit mass acts of violence, Iwouldn't go to the gun store, I'd go to the farm store. A few tons of ammonium nitrate fertilizer, few hundred gallons of solvent to extract / purify the ammonium nitrate, few gallons of oil to treat it with, few pounds of TNT to prime it, blasting cap. If the truck that McVeigh had used was filled with PURIFIED ANFO (ammonium nitrate fuel oil mixture) rather than simply fertilizer soaked in fuel oil, the blast would hav levelled a few city blocks.

Not that i'm planning to do this or anything, but if you want to ban guns to protect people, you have to realize how ignorant and futile that would be.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Should a private citizen be able to own... [Re: ]
    #2390752 - 03/01/04 12:15 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

it wouldn't have hurt. the nazis were able to round up and execute 10 million people. if only 10% of those were able bodied males with guns, they'd have had to go through a million armed men to kill that many people. instead, it was like herding sheep

The situation wasn't that simple mush. They had the choice to either fight - and ensure the certain death of every last man, woman and child in the village - or hang on in the faint hope that a few of them would survive what came next. That's a tremendously difficult decision to make even with hindsight. I know the NRA think the world is as simple as a Rambo movie and you just scream "Like shoot dude!" but a mature man in the real world making a decision on the best way to ensure the survival of his family it isn't that easy.

If the Nazi's had broadcast "We are going to gas you all" then perhaps you would put a bullet in your wife and kids heads and take on a German battallion with a rusty old rifle and 5 bullets. But that wasn't the situation they were in.

of all the terrible acts of genocide in the past century, not one was commited against an armed people.

You'll have to elaborate on this mush - what exactly do you mean by "armed people"? Registered guns? Which countries in the world do you consider an "armed people"? The people of Poland, where the holocaust was executed, had registered guns for example.


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Anonymous

Re: Should a private citizen be able to own... [Re: Xlea321]
    #2390798 - 03/01/04 12:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I know the NRA think the world is as simple as a Rambo movie and you just scream "Like shoot dude!" but a mature man in the real world making a decision on the best way to ensure the survival of his family it isn't that easy.

and if that decision means taking up a rifle instead of getting on the train, so be it. why should people be disarmed? perhaps armed rebellion is not always the best strategy. can you honestly deny that it sometimes is a good strategy? or that the reason we have the freedoms we do today is precisely because of armed rebellion by regular citizens? or that if the government has all of the guns,it ultimately wields all of the power?

You'll have to elaborate on this mush - what exactly do you mean by "armed people"? Registered guns? Which countries in the world do you consider an "armed people"? The people of Poland, where the holocaust was executed, had registered guns for example.

firearms confiscation has preceded almost every major act of genocide in the past century.


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Anonymous

Re: Should a private citizen be able to own... [Re: Xlea321]
    #2390801 - 03/01/04 12:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

where would you draw the line?


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Should a private citizen be able to own... [Re: ]
    #2390848 - 03/01/04 12:41 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

and if that decision means taking up a rifle instead of getting on the train, so be it.

Wait a minute mush, I don't necessarily want some gung ho asshole going out blasting and ensuring the death of me and my family when there's a better chance of survival.

or that the reason we have the freedoms we do today are precisely because of armed rebellion by regular citizens?

What freedoms have come from armed rebellion? I know an awful lot have come from unarmed unions.

or that if the government has all of the guns, they ultimately wield all of the power?

I suppose this is the question. Whether having small arms is protection against F-16's.

firearms confiscation has preceded almost every major act of genocide in the past century.

Sounds like an NRA gem to me....On the other hand this statement suggests the lack of gun control allowed groups like the Nazi's to attain power:

"The Nazi Party did not ride to power confiscating guns. They rode to power on the inability of the Weimar Republic to confiscate their guns. They did not consolidate their power confiscating guns either. There is no historical evidence that Nazis ever went door to door in Germany confiscating guns. The Germans had a fetish about paperwork and documented everything. These searches and confiscations would have been carefully recorded. If the documents are there, let them be presented as evidence."


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Should a private citizen be able to own... [Re: ]
    #2390858 - 03/01/04 12:43 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

where would you draw the line?

To be honest I'm struggling with the whole idea that small arms protect you from tyrants. Has there ever been an example where armed citizens have fought off tyrants?


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
Administrator

Registered: 07/10/99
Posts: 6,487
Re: Should a private citizen be able to own... [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2390861 - 03/01/04 12:44 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I think Bill Gate should be able to own nukes, he has enough things that that scale of protection could be necessary.


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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Anonymous

Re: Should a private citizen be able to own... [Re: Xlea321]
    #2390909 - 03/01/04 12:59 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Wait a minute mush, I don't necessarily want some gung ho asshole going out blasting and ensuring the death of me and my family when there's a better chance of survival.

is he shooting at you? or at the germans who want to put you in a furnace?

someone defends themself from the nazis so they go after you -the easy target- instead. sorry, but they've got a right to defend themself, even if it means that the nazis are gonna go after you instead of them because of it.

What freedoms have come from armed rebellion?

constitutionally limited, representative government, just for starters. the old monarchies didn't just volunteer to hand over their power you know.

I suppose this is the question. Whether having small arms is protection against F-16's.

the vietnamese were able to kick out first the french, then the americans, with small arms, though these countries had superior technology including fighter aircraft. same is true of the afghans, who booted the soviets out of their country using small arms. there are countless other examples to be sure. an F-16 is good for killing other aircraft, vehicles, and buildings. it works very poorly against guerrilla fighters.

Sounds like an NRA gem to me. This suggests the lack of gun control allowed groups like the Nazi's to attain power.

no, it's history.

the nazis banned private gun ownership on March 18, 1938. look it up.


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