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Offlinedumbasswolf
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Don't Spread The Word.
    #23804952 - 11/05/16 10:00 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

A friend I was guiding down the path had an unfortunate experience with mushrooms 2 months ago; he is in very bad condition. His first 20 drug experiences I had helped him with went great, but it only took one bad one to fuck him up, and as much as I don't want to admit it I think this could be permanent.

I feel terrible, I didn't want to accept that the path I went down with psychedelics may not be worth it in the end. And it wasn't the aya, shrooms, lsd, dmt, 4aco, ald or anything else that opened me up to this thought. I had perhaps my most honest and important thought while I was completely sober.

A lot of guides preach the importance of proper set and setting "You wont get traumatized, you wont be living in fear afterwords if you do everything correctly!" As someone who has tripped over 300 times I know this is not the full story. Even moderate doses have a small chance to turn sour, and the sourest trips can leave your life in pieces.


Is the cryptic poetry shit and obvious lessons these fucking chemicals teach really worth potentially losing your peace?! Sure I can see a drug addict benefit from iboga or lsd, or someone who is really unhappy with their spiritual understanding. But really most of us are just curious motherfuckers who couldn't be bothered to live in a monastery or meditate for years to reach other planes.



My point is: if you trip enough you are bound to have bad trips, and there is a fair chance that you could lose yourself after one of these. (If you think that soldiers with PTSD look bad, you should see my friend with no family mental disease history. He is living in a world of pure terror, he and I would both probably feel better if he had just died while taking the drugs.)

I would feel less guilty if he literally died and I went to prison forever for giving him mushrooms. Think before you take more, and especially before you talk to friends about how good these drugs are.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Don't Spread The Word. [Re: dumbasswolf]
    #23804962 - 11/05/16 10:03 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Your right.  Dont let anyone deceive you about that.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Don't Spread The Word. [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #23804967 - 11/05/16 10:07 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

thats why the say there dangerous. its not some joke. its highly exaggerated but it happens.  people truly interested in spirituality go to the monastery and give up using drugs bc theyr dangerous and not practical in the long run, get the message hang up the phone was the old way of putting it.

All religions have had them but dont recommend them for this very reason.  Its not worth it if it takes your mind.  Even if the chance is slim.  Because without the mind, well its you know. But your friend can recover in due time, but he'll need help and a long time, hopefully shorter though.

Be kind to yourself. I know its tough, but Learn man, learn from it.  Maybe its time eh? True self discipline and true sacrifice.  The psychedelics only let you glimpse, not truly see.

Its hard work as opposed to eating something and sort of getting "it",  but its just a temporary drug  state, and the insights are good but fleeting like dreams.  The real work is still out there though.  And you cant blame yourself for your own ignorance unless you decide to grow up really.

Im leaving for my second term in the monastery in feb.  Till then I get to be wrapped up in the non sense that comes from being in the worldly affairs, and the joy of being with family.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (11/05/16 10:14 PM)


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Re: Don't Spread The Word. [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #23804982 - 11/05/16 10:12 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Sounds like he has PTSD from the trip.
Some MDMA therapy will cure him.
should help with whatever existential fear is causing him to be "crazy".


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


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OfflineBlabble40
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Re: Don't Spread The Word. [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #23804994 - 11/05/16 10:17 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

It's one thing to learn spirituality under a mentor, guide, or master and quite another to just dive in yourself, unprepared and hoping for the best. One can take some self sacrifice and discipline while otherwise you're most likely just buying stuff without reserve, and without that guide, you can possibly let all sorts of harm into your life.


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Re: Don't Spread The Word. [Re: hTx]
    #23805024 - 11/05/16 10:28 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
Sounds like he has PTSD from the trip.
Some MDMA therapy will cure him.
should help with whatever existential fear is causing him to be "crazy".




This is beyond MDMA therapy in my mind. We have gone to specialists in brain chem problems and not even benzos are having any positive effect. The experts are saying he is in a self sustaining cycle of brain chemical shifts (anything that plays on seretonin like MDMA will almost for sure make it a lot worse and/or be dangerous for his health is what the doc said.)

They also say they have seen this type of thing happen after taking psychedelics before, and they get criticized for trying to spread the word, and people say "this guy was probably going to be schitzo eventually anyways, this would never happen to most people." While neither side has proof, I definitely think the docs are right now that I have the full story.

But they also said it can get better or even worse over time and it might go away, but what he has going on is not just bad neural connections and chemical imbalances (wich would be more like PTSD) He has something that is self feeding, overcompensating, and hard to predict.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Don't Spread The Word. [Re: dumbasswolf]
    #23805087 - 11/05/16 10:58 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I wish I could speak with him, or you more about it im highly curious and I mean that in a way want know more because I feel I have seen the same and am similar in some regards/compassion kind of way.
Maybe good would come of it.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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Re: Don't Spread The Word. [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #23805125 - 11/05/16 11:24 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
I wish I could speak with him, or you more about it im highly curious and I mean that in a way want know more because I feel I have seen the same and am similar in some regards/compassion kind of way.
Maybe good would come of it.




He has a hard time talking to people lately, the only time he seems to talk is when we are trying to get to the bottom of what happened or different things we could do to help it. Now that we have input from the professionals it has been hard to get anything out of him. (I tried bringing him to therapy first, but after an hour the guy said there is something really wrong and we should see a doctor. The doctor said therapy will probably just aggravate it short term and not help since this isnt really a psychological problem.)

You could DM me or something if you want to talk more specifically about what's going on with him or if you want me to give input and/or ask docs about the situations you mentioned. I'd also be happy to share the advice the docs gave about potentially imoroving certain things through trial and error like sleep cycles in people with weird brain activity/stress. (I could respond to a DM tomorrow since I'm heading to bed now.)


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Re: Don't Spread The Word. [Re: dumbasswolf]
    #23805370 - 11/06/16 03:58 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

what are his symptoms exactly?

I went through a period of something which I cannot accurately put into words after my first L trip (I had an unanticipated cosmic/spiritual experience), and most of which I kept to myself (meaning for 6 months or so, I would quite often have some experience where I felt reality was being altered in some way and it would terrify me to the core leading to uncontrollable shaking/fear but I never really told anyone about it for fear of being committed).
Its something only somebody that's been there could possibly understand because it involves actual non-imagined events, just perceived in a different way, that is no less true or false than an ordinary perception.

I can only describe it as a sudden perception of some higher force at work in the universe and a general distrust of this force/perception.

I cured myself (the fear response) with an unexpected MDMA roll with some now close friends.

The force/perception came and the usual negative emotional/fear response was present for a small moment before transforming into some utterly needed understanding/trust. 

It sounds a lot like what your friend is going through, and to be honest, I doubt very many could experience what I was experiencing and keep their cool for very long.

My sanity was such that I knew I was insane and couldn't / shouldn't talk about it and keep my reaction to it as if alls the merrier, but it didn't change the fact that crazy shit was happening in my perception and I would be shaking with fear when it did.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


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Offlinedumbasswolf
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Re: Don't Spread The Word. [Re: hTx]
    #23805515 - 11/06/16 07:17 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
what are his symptoms exactly?

I went through a period of something which I cannot accurately put into words after my first L trip (I had an unanticipated cosmic/spiritual experience), and most of which I kept to myself (meaning for 6 months or so, I would quite often have some experience where I felt reality was being altered in some way and it would terrify me to the core leading to uncontrollable shaking/fear but I never really told anyone about it for fear of being committed).
Its something only somebody that's been there could possibly understand because it involves actual non-imagined events, just perceived in a different way, that is no less true or false than an ordinary perception.

I can only describe it as a sudden perception of some higher force at work in the universe and a general distrust of this force/perception.

I cured myself (the fear response) with an unexpected MDMA roll with some now close friends.

The force/perception came and the usual negative emotional/fear response was present for a small moment before transforming into some utterly needed understanding/trust. 

It sounds a lot like what your friend is going through, and to be honest, I doubt very many could experience what I was experiencing and keep their cool for very long.

My sanity was such that I knew I was insane and couldn't / shouldn't talk about it and keep my reaction to it as if alls the merrier, but it didn't change the fact that crazy shit was happening in my perception and I would be shaking with fear when it did.




Yeah I know what you mean by that kind of thing, I was rattled by DMT in a very similar way my first time. His symptoms (sadly) are a little different though. My Friend probably has that kind of problem, he also has some peculiar symptoms that indicate more than just a psychological crisis, although the docs said this type of thing can be caused by incredibly severe trauma, then it it gets to the point where the trauma is not the main factor, but self feeding swings in brain chemicals.

He goes through many intense swings in perception all day, about one every 2-3 hours. For a couple hours he will be scared to death and crying, then he will be be breathing heavily saying it feels like he drank 10 cups of coffee and he thinks he's finally gonna die because there is no way he can live through this pain, then he'll get super tired and pass out for an hour or 2, almost always waking up after 2 hours screaming because of a nightmare I presume (he doesn't have memory of what happened later, and he cannot formulate a sentence for about 30 minutes after waking up.) 

Keep in mind this has been his life 24/7 since the bad shroom trip, no 8 hours of escape every night. Just 4-8 hours of random sleep during inconvenient times. We are considering putting him in an institution if we can't find a way to normalize his day and night cycles, his family shouldn't have to wake up to a screaming man in the middle of the night. (we are trying a few things and actually seeing a little success.)


This is a severe case and probably happens to anybody very rarely after psychedelic use. I now don't think that this small chance is worth it. Also the existential crisis that I had and dealt with (luckily) probably wasn't worth it either. I told myself I am a better person now, I have more resilience. But if I look at my habits, lifestyle and reaction to stress I have the same, and maybe even less resilience.


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Offlineflickedbic
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Re: Don't Spread The Word. [Re: dumbasswolf]
    #23805660 - 11/06/16 08:16 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

His first 20 drug experiences I had helped him with went great, but it only took one bad one to fuck him up




Over what time period did these 21 trips take place?


--------------------
Favorite entheogen experiences in descending order:
1)Combo of oral DMT + smoked Bufotenine
2)Amanita (urine drank twice)
3)Mushrooms > Achuma 16"+cid(still need higher dose Achuma)> Cid (still need high dose)
4)Morning Glory-HBWR (+cumin, cinnamon aldehyde adducts) > Methyl chavicol (need more activators)
5)Salvia (need to try quid)


All readable matter in the above post is ficticious... any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.

Blessing.


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OfflinepsilocybinjunkieM
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Re: Don't Spread The Word. [Re: flickedbic]
    #23805839 - 11/06/16 09:27 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

It should get better with time, it may take several months or a year, but eventually he'll get over the experience. Bad trips can happen even in the perfect set and setting that's just a fact. I took way to much acid and was high/altered and felt inhuman for months and was depressed and never thought i'd feel normal again, ever. It lasted for months anywhere from 4 to 6 months or more. One day I just felt better. It may have been gradual, I can't remember because it was such a long awful period in my life, but eventually I did start feeling physically normal again which I didn't for many many months. If a person isn't ready or mentally able to handle powerful bad trips then they shouldn't be tripping. I knew that and just dealt with my horrific experience, no doctors, no endless bitching to friends about it. Sure it was hellish, but I decided to take the trip and eat way too much cid. I have had friends and even myself be traumatized from intensely nightmarish shroom terror trips. My most recent one was 5 years or so ago and left me shell shocked for a week or more, didn't really leave the house or get off the couch, felt really timid about the world, and that was after a decade of tripping and the bad acid experience. My friends and I all eventually returned to normal and most of us got back into tripping eventually too.

I hope your friend recovers soon and starts feeling better, it can be a long rough path I know from experience. Good vibes to him :mushroom2:


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Re: Don't Spread The Word. [Re: flickedbic]
    #23806077 - 11/06/16 10:50 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

flickedbic said:
Quote:

His first 20 drug experiences I had helped him with went great, but it only took one bad one to fuck him up




Over what time period did these 21 trips take place?




I made him wait 2 weeks generally, but he ended up smoking dmt sometimes in between that. He had not done any drugs for a month prior to the 3 gram mushroom trip that triggered this. (on average he was probably doing something every 3 weeks.) (he had anywhere from 20-23 trips in the past 8 months, and I was present for every one of them, in the next room, available to help or talk if he wanted to.)

I guess he was using relatively often and that may have contributed to this. But honestly I think this still could happen if he waited 2 months between every trip, probably less likely though because brain environment might be better and he would be tripping not as often (less total trips=less bad trips even if ratio of good to bad is the same)


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Re: Don't Spread The Word. [Re: psilocybinjunkie]
    #23806109 - 11/06/16 10:59 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psilocybinjunkie said:
It should get better with time, it may take several months or a year, but eventually he'll get over the experience. Bad trips can happen even in the perfect set and setting that's just a fact. I took way to much acid and was high/altered and felt inhuman for months and was depressed and never thought i'd feel normal again, ever. It lasted for months anywhere from 4 to 6 months or more. One day I just felt better. It may have been gradual, I can't remember because it was such a long awful period in my life, but eventually I did start feeling physically normal again which I didn't for many many months. If a person isn't ready or mentally able to handle powerful bad trips then they shouldn't be tripping. I knew that and just dealt with my horrific experience, no doctors, no endless bitching to friends about it. Sure it was hellish, but I decided to take the trip and eat way too much cid. I have had friends and even myself be traumatized from intensely nightmarish shroom terror trips. My most recent one was 5 years or so ago and left me shell shocked for a week or more, didn't really leave the house or get off the couch, felt really timid about the world, and that was after a decade of tripping and the bad acid experience. My friends and I all eventually returned to normal and most of us got back into tripping eventually too.

I hope your friend recovers soon and starts feeling better, it can be a long rough path I know from experience. Good vibes to him :mushroom2:





Thanks for the input, good vibes to you too.

Also being out of it for 4-6 months must really suck? Like to the point where drugs might have had a net negative on your life rather than a net positive?

I don't know, but to me the time I spent "integrating" now seems like wasted time that I could have used to get a lot more done physically and spiritually if I just didn't take drugs in the first place. And I now realize most of the integration I did was in reality just coping with the trauma induced by a bad trip.

I guess this depends on the person though.


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Offlinevoodoochild1000
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Re: Don't Spread The Word. [Re: dumbasswolf]
    #23806143 - 11/06/16 11:10 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Man... I hope I don't experience this...sounds awful :llamastare:


....I have done some high doses..but allways c9me back with great revealations....:mindexpanding:


--------------------
....."So Great!"....-Me on 1.5mg LSD :vibin:

...."We don't need this" -Larkin in response to my "just picked wild LSD!" post:canthelpbutlaugh:


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Re: Don't Spread The Word. [Re: voodoochild1000]
    #23806281 - 11/06/16 11:47 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

voodoochild1000 said:
Man... I hope I don't experience this...sounds awful :llamastare:


....I have done some high doses..but always c9me back with great revealations....:mindexpanding:





Totally agree, my high dose ayahuasca experience was, and continues to be, the greatest point in my life.

These things are so indescribably beautiful when they go well.  But when they go bad they can go real bad. So for now on I'm going to stick to meditation, projection, and breathing techniques in my quest to find beauty and meaning in this world.

Supposedly everything we experience on these drugs and more can be accessed through traditional means.

I think these drugs are an easy and relatively safe way to access some of the better parts of our consciousness, but there is always a small chance they mess you up.


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OfflinepsilocybinjunkieM
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Re: Don't Spread The Word. [Re: dumbasswolf]
    #23806409 - 11/06/16 12:35 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dumbasswolf said:
Quote:

psilocybinjunkie said:
It should get better with time, it may take several months or a year, but eventually he'll get over the experience. Bad trips can happen even in the perfect set and setting that's just a fact. I took way to much acid and was high/altered and felt inhuman for months and was depressed and never thought i'd feel normal again, ever. It lasted for months anywhere from 4 to 6 months or more. One day I just felt better. It may have been gradual, I can't remember because it was such a long awful period in my life, but eventually I did start feeling physically normal again which I didn't for many many months. If a person isn't ready or mentally able to handle powerful bad trips then they shouldn't be tripping. I knew that and just dealt with my horrific experience, no doctors, no endless bitching to friends about it. Sure it was hellish, but I decided to take the trip and eat way too much cid. I have had friends and even myself be traumatized from intensely nightmarish shroom terror trips. My most recent one was 5 years or so ago and left me shell shocked for a week or more, didn't really leave the house or get off the couch, felt really timid about the world, and that was after a decade of tripping and the bad acid experience. My friends and I all eventually returned to normal and most of us got back into tripping eventually too.

I hope your friend recovers soon and starts feeling better, it can be a long rough path I know from experience. Good vibes to him :mushroom2:





Thanks for the input, good vibes to you too.

Also being out of it for 4-6 months must really suck? Like to the point where drugs might have had a net negative on your life rather than a net positive?

I don't know, but to me the time I spent "integrating" now seems like wasted time that I could have used to get a lot more done physically and spiritually if I just didn't take drugs in the first place. And I now realize most of the integration I did was in reality just coping with the trauma induced by a bad trip.

I guess this depends on the person though.



I mean alcohol has been and was a bigger negative in my life, but I had social anxiety and other issues back then that I no longer have. I am fine around women and not shy or afraid to have conversations with them and I was a bit nervous in my teens and early twenties. So it's been a mixed bag with psychs, overall good, but there were very dark periods, i've had trips where I thought of killing myself most or all of the trip, I knew it was mindfuck from being high, still it was uncomfortable. Overall it was a benefit for me, but for some it can just be a waste. My advice for you is to just move forward. Do not look at is so much as a waste of time and dwell on the past, but just move forward and don't use drugs anymore if you find they are detrimental to your life. You have tried them and now if you feel they aren't worth your time just move on. Your friend will eventually recover unless he doesn't want to and just wallows in a single bad experience forever, which people can do if an accident or sex crime happens to them, childhood bullying, or any variety of unfortunate things that negatively impact a person in their life. At some point you have to decide whether you are going to move forward with your life because it is ultimately a decision only that person can make for themselves. Bad experiences happen and it sucks, many people enjoy their youth, or waste it on drugs, women, partying, and other things in retrospect. But that is kind of the normal human pitfalls of youth, you are going to make mistakes. It is most important that you can learn from them and move forward and become a better person despite the adversity and unfortunate things that have happened to you in your life.

I wish you and your friend the best, just stay upbeat, be supportive and patient with him and i'm sure you both will get yourselves on a better track in the future! :mushroom2:


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OfflineDuhItsMe
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Re: Don't Spread The Word. [Re: psilocybinjunkie]
    #23806584 - 11/06/16 01:15 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I made an account to post my trip report, and reply to this thread. I sincerely hope your friend gets better soon and that you figure out your own direction. I'd like to thank you for putting the fear of God in me again, so to speak.

I did my 6.5gram dose, got what I wanted and after reading this I think I might take my realisation and run.

Much love.


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Re: Don't Spread The Word. [Re: DuhItsMe]
    #23806811 - 11/06/16 02:28 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DuhItsMe said:
I made an account to post my trip report, and reply to this thread. I sincerely hope your friend gets better soon and that you figure out your own direction. I'd like to thank you for putting the fear of God in me again, so to speak.

I did my 6.5gram dose, got what I wanted and after reading this I think I might take my realisation and run.

Much love.




Probably the safest move when it comes to psychedelics "take the realization and run"

Indigenous people who used these things don't tend to do it every few weeks, a lot of them limit it to a few times in an entire life. I bet that lowers the chances of the negative results.


Have a good day everyone


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Offlinebruna
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Re: Don't Spread The Word. [Re: DuhItsMe]
    #23806814 - 11/06/16 02:29 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Does he practice any sports or do any training?  At least for me it was my way out from a long period of a dark and horrible mental state I was a few years ago (as I recall, it was almost 1 year like this, induced for using psychedelics).
Tell him to try that, even if he need to force himself doing it (as i forced myself also, but I'm glad I did...)

Hope it helps your friend as much as it helped me in the past!


Edited by bruna (11/06/16 02:30 PM)


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