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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 2
    #19561718 - 02/13/14 01:49 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

:creepylurker:

Uhm, good. :cool:

I'm about to start a long term PE experiment, both isolating for potency and then doing longer consolidation. 

Want to see if I get PE as much stronger than regular PE as regular PE is stronger than regular cubes. :alientransform:

:peace:PS


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Offlinekatore
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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #19561778 - 02/13/14 02:06 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
:creepylurker:

Uhm, good. :cool:

I'm about to start a long term PE experiment, both isolating for potency and then doing longer consolidation. 

Want to see if I get PE as much stronger than regular PE as regular PE is stronger than regular cubes. :alientransform:

:peace:PS



That "creepy Lurker" gif is awesome! It made me lol.


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OfflineJot
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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: katore] * 1
    #19637723 - 03/02/14 12:52 AM (10 years, 30 days ago)

I've got some SLOWWWW growing myc in my sgfc right now, but it might just be slow because my room is around 55 degrees


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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #19653694 - 03/05/14 08:40 AM (10 years, 26 days ago)

hmmm wish it was easier to test actual levels and get real data this s interesting

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OfflinePsilosopherr
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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: hmmm] * 1
    #23802095 - 11/04/16 10:47 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I wonder if this is the key to fruiting species that are difficult to fruit indoors/fruit poorly indoors! Or species that we currently think are impossible to fruit indoors/cultivate.

Hopefully nobody minds the thread revive, but I thought this was worth the post. Plus this idea needs spreading, I had never heard of it.

Seems we should edit all the major teks and add this information in, or something. I mean its RR certified ffs.

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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: Psilosopherr] * 1
    #23802140 - 11/04/16 11:14 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

It provides food for thought that's sure.  Pretty soon I hope to get back to this topic, might make a good "to do" for next summer's crops if I start about...now...  :lol:

Thanks for the bump!


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OfflinePsilosopherr
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Re: Longer consolidation time leads to greater potency in first flush...and 2nd flush... [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #23802168 - 11/04/16 11:33 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I'm imagining people really running with this method and just stockpiling piles of cololonized subs.

Just wonder if some oddball species like liberty caps or something would really shine with this technique. maybe psilo cyans? Those are probably all about the temps though..

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Offlineblackout
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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: Smeagol] * 1
    #23803387 - 11/05/16 01:17 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Smeagol said:
There has to be a way to manipulate potency. Not turn a cube into a pan cyan but something like a cube x 1.5.



Mycofile talked of dramatic increases, I think he said 3-5 times as strong are regular cubes. He has lots of posts about it, his would be colonising for months.


Quote:

mycofile said:Please give me a potency report after they are grown.  One month over-incubation is the minimum I have seen a potency increase with, and I'm interested in hearing even more validation of the idea (subjective of course).  Good luck. 

Oh, you may want to be careful with the first few doses, particularly if you are sharing.  I had several friends (very experienced psychonauts) wig out a little, even on much less than their usual doses.  I'd start with a gram and then work your way up.  Cubies from over-incubated spawn are just as if not more potent than Pan. cyans in my (sometimes) humble experience.






I have found them stronger too as did friends. I gave a guy 3 shrooms and had told him to take one, he went and took them all without me knowing, this would have been about 1.3g and he is now sworn off them as they were so strong. I did not expect him to remember the weight but he recalled I had given him 1g of cubes a good few years ago and so had figured these would be the same. I had been giving most people 0.5g for a mild dose, one guy complained 0.5g was way too strong for him, none of these people would be taking high doses though.

I have wondered if there maybe a way to speed up whatever process is happening. I am not sure if I ever read of people repeatedly shaking jars after recovery, if this happened over and over it could result in the same amount of growth going on in a few weeks as would in months of sitting there slowly using up the grains. But maybe sitting undisturbed is essential to the process, in which case you might be better off using lots of LC at the start so you never have to shake your jars at all after the inital shake when LC is added.

I think I might have asked mycofile about doing G2G with overincubated jars, i.e. would the freshly colonised G2G jars be stronger too.

I have been thinking about how to measure or gauge the potency. I think microdosing could be the most sensible way to do it. With microdosing you do not want to feel any effects at all, if you do then it was simply not a microdose. People could have an isolate and grow one regularly and overincubate a second identical jar and grow out the same way. You slowly increase your microdose until you do feel an effect, this allows lots of testing to be done in short times, and most seem to report little tolerance build up. Even if you do build up a tolerance the regularity of the doses mean you can very easily compare 2 different grows, take 0.2g of one and same of the other a few days later. I have felt definite effects from 0.2g of overincubated grows.

Edited by blackout (11/05/16 01:34 PM)

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OfflinePsilosopherr
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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: blackout] * 1
    #23803430 - 11/05/16 01:35 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

:takingnotes: I've got some old ass mexicana jars that didn't do well. Sounds like the perfect use for them.

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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: blackout] * 1
    #23803800 - 11/05/16 04:04 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

blackout said:
I have wondered if there maybe a way to speed up whatever process is happening. I am not sure if I ever read of people repeatedly shaking jars after recovery, if this happened over and over it could result in the same amount of growth going on in a few weeks as would in months of sitting there slowly using up the grains. But maybe sitting undisturbed is essential to the process, in which case you might be better off using lots of LC at the start so you never have to shake your jars at all after the inital shake when LC is added.




My working theory is that it's metabolic metabolism, as the subs are well digested.  Whatever improves the ability of the myc to consolidate and extract enough energy to encourage it to manufacture alkaloid precursors would do that trick.  Time is cheap if you plan ahead of course.

I've tried enough sub extracts (uniformly with regret) to suspect what's getting produced is precursors.  The time to pinning and fruiting is almost immediate once you place them into fruiting.  Note though that these are all thoroughly colonized minitubs in what I've done, extending consolidation in jars, shaking or not, is something that I've done accidentally quite a few times (and or through laziness) but that doesn't have the same effect IME and opens it up to contamination.  Undisturbed tubs ready to fruit were the ticked here.


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Offlineblackout
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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #23805486 - 11/06/16 06:48 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Note though that these are all thoroughly colonized minitubs in what I've done, extending consolidation in jars, shaking or not, is something that I've done accidentally quite a few times (and or through laziness) but that doesn't have the same effect IME and opens it up to contamination.  Undisturbed tubs ready to fruit were the ticked here.



Right, I was having a total brainfart and though you were "overconsolidating" jars before spawning. You say leaving it in jars opens it up to contams, are you saying your jars contam before opening? or that the contams come at spawning time, perhaps due to lower speed of colonisation.

The comments I was making about my own experience of increased potency was jars delayed before spawning. Mycofile spoke of leaving them several months, this is probably not going to work out well if you are trying to leave bulk trays. I wonder if there is a benefit to a mix of both, leaving the jars for 5 months, then in the tub for 1 month. This could result in more potency than if they were in the jar for 6months, but the same time overall.

Even if you could leave tubs a long time many would want to be using their tubs but are more likely to have spare jars they can leave a while.

Few more quotes

Quote:

mycofile said:
Yeah, I meant spawn.  Seems the over-incubated cultures really benefits from some nutritional rejuvenation, which it won't get unless used as spawn.




note the comments on metabolites, the user he is talking about is Baby_Hitler who also grew out other species myc to eat.
Quote:

mycofile said:
I am, and have been of the opinion that over-incubated spawn is the one thing that can be done by casual home cultivators to increase fruit potency.  I've discussed it here and there, but it's not a crusade of mine because I've been attacked for it. 

I don't really care though, I know that potency is subjective, but I also know that I don't lose my shit from a single bite of stem.  Repeatedly.  And only on fruits that were spawned with over-incubated spawn.

The first person I remember discussing it with was, ummm, damn, uhhh, the guy with hitler in the hoopty in his avatar?  I think that was it, anyway, first time I read about it, some dood was talking about eating months old cakes.  I disregarded it, because eating cakes is gross.  But, after making my "discovery", I looked back and saw that it's not unusual at all for people to report increased potency in a number of situations from older cultures.

My personal method is to use WBS bags, hang the corner off a shelf to collect the piss, and let it sit in the dark for 1-3 months, then use it as spawn at a high spawn rate (25-50%).  Keep these shrooms in house until you determine potency, unless you want friends ending up in the ER with your shrooms....




Quote:

mycofile said:
OK, my theory on the mechanism at play:

Ecologically speaking, A cubensis cultures primary objective is to reproduce.  To reproduce, it must capture it's substrate first.  Production of psilocybin/psilocin is not something that is understood, but it is known that it is not a primary objective of a cube culture.  So, when you start your spawn, the cultures objectives, in order are to 1.  Fully colonize the substrate  2.  Reproduce as soon as possible  3.  Produce psilocybin/psilocin.

By allowing the culture to achieve colonization of the substrate, but preventing it from fruiting, you are allowing the culture plenty of time to do other things that it is good at, just not as important, biologically speaking, as reproduction.  Namely, producing active goodies.

Now, I may not be right with this theory.  Another possibility is just that older cultures have accumulated more secondary metabolites of various types, not just psilocybin and psilocin.  These chemicals are then used by the culture as precursers to elevate the potency of the fruits.  Kind of like adding tryptamine to the substrate, except the increased potency seems to be as much psilocybin as 'cin with over-incubated spawn.  This could be because whatever the precursers are, they bypass the downregulation of psilocybin, or it could be that some yet unidentified alkaloid is present in the over-incubated spawn.

Regardless, it works.  I almost hate talking about it because it's always controversial.  Hell I'd bash it if I hadn't discovered it myself on accident.  So, try it if you like. 

I've tripped as hard as I can handle with people around on a 1.5" piece of stem before.

Regardless, there is definitely some kind of difference between fresh spawn and over-incubated spawn.  This spawn was used a little over 1 month beyond full colonization, incubating at 75-ish degrees:

does it look a little different than fresh spawn?



Edited by blackout (11/06/16 07:07 AM)

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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: blackout] * 1
    #23807302 - 11/06/16 04:33 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

blackout said:
Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Even if you could leave tubs a long time many would want to be using their tubs but are more likely to have spare jars they can leave a while.








Maybe, but the tubs have a lot more volume and don't have to be handled at all for fruiting, I think that's important to how it works.  Months old spawn in a jar does not want to go anywhere.  :lol:

If I leave jars for months they are more likely to contam IF I try to case them out or anything, that was all I meant.  No, they don't contam on their own, not any more than usual.  Note that a fully colonized sub is pretty resistant to contamination...

OK, so here's the deal - say you leave the tubs 6 weeks and you get twice the potency (just a guess).  If you were running spawning normally you'd have to produce twice as much for the same alkaloids, so two cycles.  As I recall (it's been a while now) it takes 2-3 weeks or something like that to go from spawning to fruiting, and 5-10 days to colonize jars fully, and then the fruiting cycle (if you let it go on - I do) is like once a week-10 days (depends on strain).  When you let the tubs sit for 6 weeks (or whatever I did before) they literally pin overnight once you place them into fruiting, so that saves some time.  Seems like the output of alkaloids is about the same but the difference is the tubs would get cycled through twice - which means (if the tubs are successful at the same rate) you get the same sort of production, into less mass of fruit bodies, with half the sub but about the same time.

Also, well, I can make and stack a whole bunch of minitubs and they aren't picky about timing really, so whenever the current fruiting collection gets finished the new ones can be rotated in - and they fruit right off the bat, they don't sit there taking up space before fruiting.

Not saying any of this is guaranteed of course but that's how it seemed to me at the time.  :thumbup:

Possibly it doesn't matter whether it's spawn or sub for the potency increase.  If I was gonna overincubate spawn though I'd do it in bags as digging out long-term jars to spawn is a pain, and they typically won't shake anymore.  :shrug:

And the other thing I gotta wonder at this point - is the spawn eventually making alkaloids before fruiting?  I haven't tested that, and I like fruits better, but hey, maybe you could save a step if they didn't actually need to fruit.

Interesting theory in that last quote from mycofile.


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if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 

Edited by PrimalSoup (11/07/16 09:13 PM)

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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #23808759 - 11/07/16 07:09 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I was reading about claviceps alkaloid production (ergot) and it does not produce a significant amount of alkaloids until its carbon source is almost out and it also accumulates precursors in its mycilial network that is later turned into alkaloids. Maybe it's similar in mushrooms and that is why consolidation helps.

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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: krypto2000] * 1
    #23809292 - 11/07/16 10:46 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

That's interesting.  :thumbup:


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Invisibledankington
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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: PrimalSoup] * 1
    #23810185 - 11/07/16 04:30 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

So here's something I've been thinking about this, I do know that some slower fruiters are more potent, and it could be from longer colonization time.

However, one thing you'll see often is people claiming that although bacteria reduced their total crops, it made them much more potent. I wonder if the longer consolidation time allows the bacteria we've pushed back with the PC to come back. But, because the mycelium is fairly well established, it doesn't prevent the culture from fruiting. Perhaps it's actually the bacterial reaction and not the consolidation time making it more potent.

Not an argument, just an idea that's kinda been kicked around in my head for some time.

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OfflinePsilosopherr
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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: dankington] * 1
    #23810213 - 11/07/16 04:44 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

and an interesting one at that :thumbup:

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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: Psilosopherr] * 1
    #23810268 - 11/07/16 05:08 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I wouldn't think that's the case. It's still debated whether bacteria even survive, but on agar bacteria does not seem to attack or harm the mycilium in any way, it just kind of claims its own turf and steals potential real estate. So if you mycilium goes to full colonization there wouldn't be anywhere for the bacteria to grow.

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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: krypto2000] * 1
    #23810285 - 11/07/16 05:14 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

But when you PC your grains, you're only pushing bacteria back a bit. We don't have the capacity to truly sterilize grains in most home settings. We colonize our spawn in a window. After which time, the bacteria can and will come back.

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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: dankington] * 1
    #23810412 - 11/07/16 05:48 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

That's not a fact though, it's a highly debated theory, but either way it doesn't matter if they are gone completely or simply stalled if when they are again viable there are no nutrients left for them to grow on.

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OfflinePsilosopherr
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Re: keep the investigation alive! [Re: krypto2000] * 1
    #23810538 - 11/07/16 06:18 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

PC some jars and leave them un-inoculated, I'm pretty sure they will contam in about a month, no?

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