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OfflineTrypto-Fan
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Re: Take this as you will || contact with entities [Re: wolf8312]
    #23815319 - 11/09/16 06:27 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

wolf8312 said:
Its not a lack of belief in God which drives the act and such people are of course driven by personal gain, but it is also because they believe -consciously or unconsciously- that they will suffer no hellish consequences for doing what they do that they are able to do what they do.





Firstly, we all start off as atheists. Every single one.
No one is born believing in a deity, people are indoctrinated into belief systems.
People have enough reasons to conform to social norms of morality based on tangible real world societal consequences without the added belief of a vengeful deity or hellish afterlife (prison, ostracization, etc)
The difference is that when people commit atrocities in the name of their religion they believe they are righteous by way of a higher power, which is an incredibly dangerous way of thinking, and something you couldn't ever attribute to atheism itself.

Quote:

wolf8312 said:Honestly some people do indeed take to this philosophy -nihilism with atheism at its core- as enthusiastically and devoutly as a christian does his. The philosophy -basically self worship- takes on the same dimensions as a religion but if he did actually believe in God, and hellish consequences for his actions, then obviously he certainly wouldn't do it.




What part of atheism or nihilism entails 'self worship'?
As above stated, atheism is simply the lack of belief a deity, and nihilsm the belief that life is without meaning.
If you're referring to moral nihilsm, well, you could argue that since moral values vary across cultures that there is no objective morality, but this is going off on a tangent; even with this belief one would still have to conform to the moral values of whatever society/culture they belong to, or else, consequences :wink:

Quote:

wolf8312 said:So I would argue it is hugely relevant whether a man is atheist or committing his crimes because he believes in something or some greater good, the later I would argue being much more excusable albeit stupid.




And this is exactly the problem;

If someone kills thousands of people for personal gain, then that's awful, but if someone kills thousands of people because they believe their omnipotent imaginary friend thinks it's righteous (and the 72 virgins in the afterlife  :wink: ) then it's of course 'excusable'
Sure...

Quote:

wolf8312 said:I would say again too, that although on the surface countless atrocities have been committed in the name of God, when you really analyze why these atrocities occurred and the people who carried them out, you will probably find that they were actually instigated by total psychopaths with no beliefs in God or religion whatsoever.

After all would a genuinely god fearing individual have another man burned to death? I personally believe only a very sadistic man with no fear whatsoever of God would do that! In short an atheist.




This is just factually inaccurate.
It's crazy the 'immoral' things people can do when they have social (or religious) validation to back them up.
You don't need to be a psychopath at all, you just need to be indoctrinated into an ideology that will encourage you to do 'evil' things.
For a modern example take a look at islamic terrorism.


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Offlinewolf8312
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Re: Take this as you will || contact with entities [Re: Trypto-Fan]
    #23815515 - 11/09/16 08:32 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


Firstly, we all start off as atheists. Every single one.
No one is born believing in a deity, people are indoctrinated into belief systems.




Yes I know that thanks! I myself am an atheist, and was never indoctrinated into a religion either.

Quote:

The difference is that when people commit atrocities in the name of their religion they believe they are righteous by way of a higher power, which is an incredibly dangerous way of thinkingand something you couldn't ever attribute to atheism itself.




Yes I'm aware of that too, but can you really ever know what the perpetrators or your islamic killers actually believe or believed? Do you any more than I know if he was a devout religious man, or simply a guiltless psychopath who believed in nothing at all?

Sure the suicide bomber who goes in and blows himself up, almost certainly believes in heaven but what about the man pulling the strings? He may be religious he may not, some men just want to watch the world burn!

My point was that his lack of religion and belief in God/Hell may not be a motivation to commit his atrocity but certainly doesn't stop him from doing so either. I was saying basically if he feared God and the consequences of going to Hell he wouldn't do it.

I was not making the argument that atheism drives or motivates people to kill as if that were so, as you implied half the population would be killing other people and committing atrocities too!

It wasnt either my intention to enter into a debate over which is more destructive religon or atheism, belief or no belief, and I too dont consciously believe in God but am a moral person. 

That all said if you read 'The Gates of Janus' you will read the words of a psychopathic man who did indeed take nihilism and his and many others belief that 'if God is dead all is permissible' and turned it into a personal philosophy that he claimed for himself 'had the power of religion' and still to this day uses to justify his own heinous crimes.

I would also argue that 'the might is right' and 'survival of the fittest' Nazi philosophy was and is too essentially nihilistic and an atheist rejection of christian morality. Not simply a rejection of morality and religion but a rejection of the human conscience. This though should be analyzed from within the context of the early 20th century when morality and religion were not as mutually exclusive as they are today. If I did kill people I am sure I would be telling myself every day- dont worry hell is just a fairly tale!

But as I said above too, I do kind of believe many of us in the western world are religious subconsciously without even knowing it and if we woke up murderers tommorrow part of us would indeed fear hell! Just speculation though....

Quote:

This is just factually inaccurate.
It's crazy the 'immoral' things people can do when they have social (or religious) validation to back them up.
You don't need to be a psychopath at all, you just need to be indoctrinated into an ideology that will encourage you to do 'evil' things.
For a modern example take a look at Islamic terrorism.




Its not factually anything as I said it was something I personally believe, just an opinion.

Yes people commit all kinds of crimes when they believe they have the law or God onside I accept that. My point was that many crimes are committed by people who have no beliefs in God or even personal justifications -moral/legal- whatsoever. 

Quote:


What part of atheism or nihilism entails 'self worship'?




I think you missed the point of what I was trying to say. Lets have another look:

Quote:

Wolf said:
Honestly some people do indeed take to this philosophy -nihilism with atheism at its core- as enthusiastically and devoutly as a christian does his. The philosophy -basically self worship- takes on the same dimensions as a religion but if he did actually believe in God, and hellish consequences for his actions, then obviously he certainly wouldn't do it.





I obviously wasn't arguing that the concepts of atheism and nihilism involve self worship! Only that the type of psychopath who builds a nihilistic morally relativistic philosophy around himself that can for him be as potent as religon for others- is worshiping himself basically.

Personally think this has got ridiculously over complicated!
Quote:


And this is exactly the problem;

If someone kills thousands of people for personal gain, then that's awful, but if someone kills thousands of people because they believe their omnipotent imaginary friend thinks it's righteous (and the 72 virgins in the afterlife  :wink: ) then it's of course 'excusable'
Sure...





Certainly wasnt saying it was excusable! I was saying that if a man kills another because he genuinely believe he is doing something good then this is at least (IMO) better than if a man does something knowing full well that what he is doing is evil.

I killed her because she was a demon and I feared for my life  Vs I killed her because I'd raped her and didnt want her to tell anyone?

Honestly I genuinely believe the later is more evil!


--------------------
"I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of."

Pennywise the dancing clown



Edited by wolf8312 (11/09/16 11:16 AM)


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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
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Posts: 26,370
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Re: Take this as you will || contact with entities [Re: wolf8312]
    #23815919 - 11/09/16 11:11 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Trypto fan...we all do not start off as atheists. Thats a bold claim in which i have no idea how you could come to that.

If anything its the opposite. As people get older they become atheists because they get sick and worn down. Babies and children are closest to god..they are "fresh from the extradimension" as i like to say


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..


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Offlinewolf8312
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Re: Take this as you will || contact with entities [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #23815959 - 11/09/16 11:23 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

When I look at my baby watching me, I feel like he feels that me and my wife are his Gods! Creators and understanders of everything! He often has a look of awestruck wonder and it feels almost like I'm looking into God myself, like a two way God mirror!

And when you think about it parents are Gods to their children for a long time before they stop believing in the magic of things like santa clause and begin to question things.


--------------------
"I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of."

Pennywise the dancing clown



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Offlinealwaysbenice
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Re: Take this as you will || contact with entities [Re: wolf8312]
    #23816015 - 11/09/16 11:51 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Of course it's real. Have a shared trip report and you can prove it to yourself.
Or just read up on the evidence with an honest mind and you'll come to the same conclusion: www.evidenceforthesoul.weebly.com


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Invisibleopenmind
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Re: Take this as you will || contact with entities [Re: wolf8312]
    #23816275 - 11/09/16 01:40 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Bill_Oreilly said:


If anything its the opposite. As people get older they become atheists because they get sick and worn down.




Quote:

wolf8312 said:


....before they stop believing in the magic of things like santa clause and begin to question things.







It's the other way around for me...I came into this world questioning everything. I went from being a question everything, cold hard scientific minded, skeptical/non-believer of anything through out my toddler & little kid & teen age years, to being much more open minded and spiritual oriented now in my late 20s (but I still don't have firm beliefs in anything, that might solidify as a get a little older...my beliefs continue to change and evolve as I grow older, obtain more life experience and knowledge, and have direct contact/experiences with certain "phenomena").


I literally never once believed in Santa clause (or any of the other stories about Easter bunnies or tooth faeries, etc..)...even at 4 years old, none of the story about Santa Cluase, flying reindeer, going around the world in a night, breaking into every one's house in silence, none of that made logical sense to me and I didn't believe in any of it the slightest. I didn't see how it was possible, even as a toddler I had enough critical thought to ponder the story and come to the conclusion it was all bull shit. By the time I was in kindergarten, my mom over heard me talking with a friend in the back yard about how I knew Santa clause wasn't real. Before this, I never told my parents I didn't believe because I felt it would disappoint them for some reason :lol:  .

At church as a toddler/little kid (I didn't go too frequently)....I had way too many questions, I was curious, and their answers never went anywhere & never nurtured my curiosity...Their answers would always hit a dead end simple answer (because god this, because god that, read the bible, god says so, because god loves you). It was frustrating and I was never a believer.






Anyway...I haven't followed this thread or the direction it's gone since I made my last post, just though I'd chime in with a comment. And I'd really like the OP Big Lez to comment back in this thread in reply to some of the questions I asked in my last post, or just some farther input in the thread in general.







-OM


.


--------------------


Edited by openmind (11/09/16 01:47 PM)


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Offlinemusiclover420
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Re: Take this as you will || contact with entities [Re: openmind] * 1
    #23816295 - 11/09/16 01:47 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I don't see how anyone can be born atheist or religious. Atheism is renouncing the idea of god and to do that you would have to have some understanding of God/ religion in the first place. Likewise you can't be born christian/ religious, you can be brought up that way but you were born neutral and shaped by your external reality/ upbringing.

If anything I would argue we are all born "spiritually clean" so to speak. If you believe in god or the afterlife or any concept of the "divine" then the moment of your birth is the closest you will get to it until your death when we all return to whence we came. Except by the time we die most have had time to shape their view of reality sufficiently.


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
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Posts: 26,370
Loc: Boston
Re: Take this as you will || contact with entities [Re: musiclover420]
    #23816462 - 11/09/16 02:46 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

musiclover420 said:


If anything I would argue we are all born "spiritually clean" so to speak.




Exactly

Thus the older you get, the more you "forget" this cleanliness. Thats why i love psychs..it brought me back to my inner child.


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..


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Offlinemusiclover420
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Re: Take this as you will || contact with entities [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #23816494 - 11/09/16 02:56 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Many natural drugs in general do that for me, cannabis really brings out my inner child sometimes. It is a psychedelic in some ways/ for some people though :shrug:


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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OfflineTrypto-Fan
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Re: Take this as you will || contact with entities [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #23816639 - 11/09/16 03:46 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Bill_Oreilly said:
Trypto fan...we all do not start off as atheists. Thats a bold claim in which i have no idea how you could come to that.





It's not a bold claim at all, it's a fact.
The only reason people believe in religion is because they have it rammed down their throats.
This isn't to say that a child free of religious indoctrination couldn't form their own spiritual beliefs as they grow old enough to even form beliefs, but atheism isn't a 'belief', it's the lack of belief, and this is where so many people seem to get confused..


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Offlinemusiclover420
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Re: Take this as you will || contact with entities [Re: Trypto-Fan]
    #23816653 - 11/09/16 03:51 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Trypto-Fan said:
Quote:

Bill_Oreilly said:
Trypto fan...we all do not start off as atheists. Thats a bold claim in which i have no idea how you could come to that.





It's not a bold claim at all, it's a fact.
The only reason people believe in religion is because they have it rammed down their throats.
This isn't to say that a child free of religious indoctrination couldn't form their own spiritual beliefs as they grow old enough to even form beliefs, but atheism isn't a 'belief', it's the lack of belief, and this is where so many people seem to get confused..




Care to explain how it is a fact that someone can be born into not believing in a concept they have never heard of? :lol:

Quote:

a·the·ism
ˈāTHēˌizəm/
noun
noun: atheism

    disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.




To not believe in something wouldn't you first have to be aware of that something?...

That is like saying everyone is born believing in santa and the easter bunny :shrug:


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



Edited by musiclover420 (11/09/16 03:51 PM)


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OfflineTrypto-Fan
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Re: Take this as you will || contact with entities [Re: musiclover420]
    #23816686 - 11/09/16 03:59 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

musiclover420 said:
Quote:

Trypto-Fan said:
Quote:

Bill_Oreilly said:
Trypto fan...we all do not start off as atheists. Thats a bold claim in which i have no idea how you could come to that.





It's not a bold claim at all, it's a fact.
The only reason people believe in religion is because they have it rammed down their throats.
This isn't to say that a child free of religious indoctrination couldn't form their own spiritual beliefs as they grow old enough to even form beliefs, but atheism isn't a 'belief', it's the lack of belief, and this is where so many people seem to get confused..




Care to explain how it is a fact that someone can be born into not believing in a concept they have never heard of? :lol:

Quote:

a·the·ism
ˈāTHēˌizəm/
noun
noun: atheism

    disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.




To not believe in something wouldn't you first have to be aware of that something?...

That is like saying everyone is born believing in santa and the easter bunny :shrug:




It's all right there in what you've said. :fuckinawesome:
To believe in something, you first have to be aware of it's existence.

If no one informed you of the existence of santa or the easter bunny, you certainly wouldn't believe in those things...


Once again, atheism just means the lack of belief in a deity.


I wouldn't disagree with the term you used 'spiritually clean', however, that would also mean atheism.


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Offlinemusiclover420
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Re: Take this as you will || contact with entities [Re: Trypto-Fan]
    #23816705 - 11/09/16 04:05 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I wouldn't call not knowing about something a lack of belief. Atheism to me implies "not believing" in god as it says. "Lack of belief" is way to general.


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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OfflineTrypto-Fan
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Re: Take this as you will || contact with entities [Re: musiclover420]
    #23816783 - 11/09/16 04:25 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

musiclover420 said:
I wouldn't call not knowing about something a lack of belief. Atheism to me implies "not believing" in god as it says. "Lack of belief" is way to general.





'Not believing' is the same as 'lack of belief'

Lack means to be without.

Yes, not knowing about something is not the same as not believing in it, but to believe in something you must first be aware of it (or at least the concept of it)


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Offlinemusiclover420
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Re: Take this as you will || contact with entities [Re: Trypto-Fan] * 1
    #23816824 - 11/09/16 04:33 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

That just seems like a stretch to technically make tons of people atheist. By that logic you could be atheist without ever having heard of it.

But Atheism as it says is a "disbelief", that is what it means to me at least. I don't see how it can be both a disbelief/ lack of belief.

That would be like if Judaism was defined by a "lack of belief" in Jesus so that just by not knowing about him you would technically be Hebrew :lol:

Seems like a clever semantics trick to broaden the amount of "atheists."


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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OfflineTrypto-Fan
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Registered: 10/01/14
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Re: Take this as you will || contact with entities [Re: musiclover420]
    #23816837 - 11/09/16 04:37 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

musiclover420 said:
That just seems like a stretch to technically make tons of people atheist. By that logic you could be atheist without ever having heard of it.




Yes! Exactly.


Quote:

musiclover420 said:That would be like if Judaism was defined by a "lack of belief" in Jesus so that just by not knowing about him you would technically be Hebrew :lol:





No, this is a ridiculous analogy, because there's far more to Judasim than simply a lack of belief in jesus.

Atheism is not a doctrine.


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OfflineFilterhead462
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Re: Take this as you will || contact with entities [Re: Trypto-Fan]
    #23816975 - 11/09/16 05:36 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

First ill say that religion likes to put a label on things, you see a bright entity on DMT and its an angel but if you see something not resembling this, its a demon, this is an extremely basic and humanistic way to look at things.
I myself have encountered many entities through DMT, Mushrooms and Ayahausca. Putting labels on them such as good or bad is trying to take something beyond human concept/perception/emotion and trying to make sense of it (which i think is impossible).

These entities people encounter are "just is", they are not real but also real, they are not good nor bad. The complexity of the psychedelic experience is that you cannot explain it, cannot measure it and cannot consistently replicate it, this means it goes beyond the scientific method and a lot of people turn to religious/spiritual sources to try and interpret it or explain it.

It cannot be explained, it is beyond/defies explanation, it just is. However this means the experience is subjective, which suggests that your interpretation of what is happening is as close as you're going to get to understanding what it is. What i am saying is don't turn to others for explanation because some wont have a single idea of what you experienced and the ones that have an idea have different views made by themselves or embedded from others. Make your own interpretations because that's the only true interpretation about the experience.


--------------------

We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion


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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
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Re: Take this as you will || contact with entities [Re: Filterhead462]
    #23817562 - 11/09/16 08:28 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Filterhead462 said:
First ill say that religion likes to put a label on things, you see a bright entity on DMT and its an angel but if you see something not resembling this, its a demon, this is an extremely basic and humanistic way to look at things.
I myself have encountered many entities through DMT, Mushrooms and Ayahausca. Putting labels on them such as good or bad is trying to take something beyond human concept/perception/emotion and trying to make sense of it (which i think is impossible).

These entities people encounter are "just is", they are not real but also real, they are not good nor bad. The complexity of the psychedelic experience is that you cannot explain it, cannot measure it and cannot consistently replicate it, this means it goes beyond the scientific method and a lot of people turn to religious/spiritual sources to try and interpret it or explain it.

It cannot be explained, it is beyond/defies explanation, it just is. However this means the experience is subjective, which suggests that your interpretation of what is happening is as close as you're going to get to understanding what it is. What i am saying is don't turn to others for explanation because some wont have a single idea of what you experienced and the ones that have an idea have different views made by themselves or embedded from others. Make your own interpretations because that's the only true interpretation about the experience.





Finally some wisdom


And whoever above said "spirtually clean" means atheism  is completely wrong and i have no idea how one can make such a claim


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..


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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
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Re: Take this as you will || contact with entities [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #23817567 - 11/09/16 08:30 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

And how can a child be an atheist? Makes no sense. If anything a child is total opposite of an atheist. Children are filled with light love and life. Atheists? Ehhhh not so much :lol:

If my child EVER starts acting like the atheists do on here he is getting a smack on the face. Luckily he hasnt yet


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..


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Offlinewolf8312
Pennywise
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Registered: 10/01/12
Posts: 2,356
Last seen: 4 days, 10 hours
Re: Take this as you will || contact with entities [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #23817603 - 11/09/16 08:45 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I dont understand the stubborn refusal to understand each other on this thread sometimes lol.

Child or baby is an atheist because he has no knowldge whatsoever and cannot even begin to understand religion or concepts such as Heaven as Hell. Religion is something you learn and you start off a blank slate.

Lets agree on something!


--------------------
"I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of."

Pennywise the dancing clown



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