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connectedcosmos
Neti Neti



Registered: 02/07/15
Posts: 7,426
Loc: The Pathless Path
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What was... the first cause?
#23788057 - 10/31/16 10:10 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Was there an uncaused cause? What was the first cause to all of this?
Any opinions? Maybe conciousness itself was the first cause? Or was it existence itself? Without a observer does existence even exist? But what caused it? Im having issues with infinite regress and causation lol any thoughts or opinions?
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 54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?
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SinSemilla
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Registered: 10/31/16
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It's rather simple the conditions were excellent when it all began , for before existence there was a timeless void ... on earth if the conditions are right a fire can start or a storm or a tornado. The same principle must be used when dealing with the beginning..... in all reality I believe there are endless universes out there
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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What if existence were infinitely old? Moreover, what if time were an illusion?
Humans require causality to understand reality, but perhaps it doesn't have fundamental meaning. As David Bohm reminded us, Nature is one undivided, flowing movement. Causality is a human abstraction from this infinite reality.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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connectedcosmos
Neti Neti



Registered: 02/07/15
Posts: 7,426
Loc: The Pathless Path
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So your saying existence could be infinite meaning no beginning? And yeah your right as humans we do use casuality to understand reality, so do you think time is an illusion? Part of me thinks that all time exists at once meaning the past present and future all exist at once which makes good sense , but then that gets rid of free will ? Which is it an illusion? Do we even have free will?
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 54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?
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sprinkles
otd president


Registered: 10/13/12
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God was the first cause.
He is the first and the last. The alpha and the omega.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Quote:
connectedcosmos said: So your saying existence could be infinite meaning no beginning? And yeah your right as humans we do use casuality to understand reality, so do you think time is an illusion? Part of me thinks that all time exists at once meaning the past present and future all exist at once which makes good sense , but then that gets rid of free will ? Which is it an illusion? Do we even have free will?
That's right, no beginning. Or maybe sprinkles is right and God was the first cause. Or maybe we could get weird and say that the multiverse is infinitely old, and yet still somehow caused by God. Or not. Who knows? I also don't believe that block time dispenses with free will, although I believe in a type of free will that isn't very free. I think the past, present and future could be simply laid out for an advanced alien species or a god to look at, but at the same time free will could still be possible. I know that sounds strange, but that's how I see it. Why can't you have done something yourself, even if it was never going to go another way? I think it shows a lack of imagination to think that block time damns us in that way. Compatibilism is somewhat close to this view, but also different.
In the end I think time and causality both are illusions, and therefore that looking for a cause in time to formulate an answer to a question may be missing the point a little bit.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
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I would point out that whether or not one includes God, and I'm not making any religious statements here, we can call existence a kind of "time period," so that it makes sense to say that existence, in whatever form, has always existed -- has no beginning or end, with or without a God or gods.
A lot of the confusion arises because time is a relative dimension in our universe, and is thus quite a poor metaphor for what would conceivably be higher dimensions. I think there's a lot more to nature and existence than the dimension of time. So while higher dimensions may be nothing like time at all, it is convenient to use temporal metaphors to discuss eternity.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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beforethedawn
Registered: 06/19/16
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Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
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Interesting thread. I think of existence as unconditional. If it began it would have conditions, namely, that it would end.
The world isn't a 'thing'... it's hell knows. Hell knows what... Somehow your mind tunes to different frequencies of it when you find God. The world sits in the eternal now of various worlds, at all times. It is always now -
You are always about to create the universe. But you never do...
-------------------- Hostile humankind Can't you see you're fucking blind?
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
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If you believe that existence precedes essence then consciousness is a pre-requisite for conscience.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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phio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
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Re: What was... the first cause? [Re: sudly]
#23789576 - 10/31/16 07:03 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Journey to find out brother ... Why spoil the story that is unfolding with time? Do you fast forward your movies to the ending?
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
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Re: What was... the first cause? [Re: phio]
#23789653 - 10/31/16 07:25 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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phio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
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Re: What was... the first cause? [Re: sudly]
#23789712 - 10/31/16 07:44 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said:

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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Quote:
connectedcosmos said: Was there an uncaused cause? What was the first cause to all of this?
Any opinions? Maybe conciousness itself was the first cause? Or was it existence itself? Without a observer does existence even exist? But what caused it? Im having issues with infinite regress and causation lol any thoughts or opinions?
a common question based on common misunderstandings.
Euclid's geometry is based on postulates and axioms.
Chess is based on a board in grid form that is 8 x 8.
all logical ( as opposed to magical) thinking is based on templates.
some of these templates are grammatical.
part of grammar is tenses.
we divide reality into 3 spacial dimensions (up-down, left-right, in front-behind based on our body and mind)
we also divide reality into 3 time dimensions ( before, now, after or yesterday, today, tomorrow, --- these also relate to the body: -for example: yesterday I ate corn, today I shit corn, now I am eating red beets, tomorrow my shit will look red but I don't need to worry--it won't be blood, it will be red from the beet juice.
Graphic examples aside, the important point is that, space is easily conceived as infinite -- but when it come to time many seem to choke up apparently.
Causation is based on time, and time is also infinite (just like space), so there can never be a first cause. The same conceptual system that makes chess work and geometry work already shows us the simple principle. Rules are rules.
Humans seem to sort out into those who are emotionally comfortable with this fact, and those whom it makes uncomfortable. It is not based on IQ. Some people go caving, it would make me claustrophobic. Some people build skyscrapers, others have Acrophobia.

The need for a first cause, in all situations, and especially as regards the cosmos, also seems to be based on a fear that is unconscious enough to drive thought processes while remaining undetected.
It is perhaps worthwhile to distinguish between those phenomenon that are more directly tangible and sensible, and those that are less directly tangible and sensible such as: space, awareness, and other abstractions.
Manifest phenomenon are all interconnected and impermanent and are caused -- but they are infinitely caused -- there is always both an obvious previous cause, and also an ever expanding network of causes of causes.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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the quantum question of all
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littleton
Stranger



Registered: 08/18/10
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The greatest of all questions and rumors is/are the "soul" Below the soul lays consciousness For consciousness, we have recognition of body. Connect the three and you get spirit. "A piece of everything" The life. The love.
What you might say the cause? Soul. What might be the cause of that?? That is the question.
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beforethedawn
Registered: 06/19/16
Posts: 1,859
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
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Re: What was... the first cause? [Re: littleton]
#23798199 - 11/03/16 04:07 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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So I mean,
existence begins now.
Every moment should be a whole new perspective, that's the nature of reality and consciousness - they are defined by how you look, how you look is defined by what you are being, since "seeing is only being".
The world isn't there.
The only way to see a mundane world is to be mundane. The only way to see a magical one is to just walk into one, by the simple act of doing without a do-er.
-------------------- Hostile humankind Can't you see you're fucking blind?
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
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I've said it plenty of times before and i'll say it again; the trip is that you're always you.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: What was... the first cause? [Re: sudly]
#23798487 - 11/03/16 05:45 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: I've said it plenty of times before and i'll say it again; the trip is that you're always you.
but how do you know you're you?
in dreams one imagines one's someone else, (sort of)
seems the answer must be both memory
and feeling one is consistently influenced by the story one tells oneself...
and these stories are obviously not objective
hence your compass is subjective,
and not the scientific paradigm you seem to hope for
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
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Re: What was... the first cause? [Re: laughingdog]
#23798708 - 11/03/16 06:52 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Because the human brain is electrically active in a 24 hour cycle.
In my dreams I dream about my thoughts and fantasy because I know that my dreams are implicit perceptions.
The 'you' that makes up me is my nervous system which is the faculty of my memory, sensations and perceptions.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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beforethedawn
Registered: 06/19/16
Posts: 1,859
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
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Re: What was... the first cause? [Re: sudly]
#23798958 - 11/03/16 08:09 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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It's true that you are the brain and the brain if damaged makes parts of you disappear, but the brain and body and world are within imagination, made of imagination.
IME
-------------------- Hostile humankind Can't you see you're fucking blind?
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Re: What was... the first cause? [Re: phio]
#23802568 - 11/05/16 06:38 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
phio said: Journey to find out brother ... Why spoil the story that is unfolding with time? Do you fast forward your movies to the ending?

I got your future on DVD, do you really wanna see?
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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phio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
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Re: What was... the first cause? [Re: CosmicJoke]
#23802639 - 11/05/16 07:38 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
CosmicJoke said:
Quote:
phio said: Journey to find out brother ... Why spoil the story that is unfolding with time? Do you fast forward your movies to the ending?

I got your future on DVD, do you really wanna see?
Are the edges sawn off?
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Re: What was... the first cause? [Re: phio]
#23802824 - 11/05/16 09:34 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Radiohead always geeks me out and makes me overwhelmed with emotions, I have no idea where they even coming from because I'm such a thinking type. Gah, I still got the shivers.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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zzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
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Quote:
connectedcosmos said: Was there an uncaused cause? What was the first cause to all of this?
Any opinions? Maybe conciousness itself was the first cause? Or was it existence itself? Without a observer does existence even exist? But what caused it? Im having issues with infinite regress and causation lol any thoughts or opinions?
Trying to imagine a 'First/beginning' is as humourous as trying to imagine an 'End', as though begining and end do not imply each other
Think of some pompous event called ta daaaaa :::::: (trumpets blaring)
The END
./...then silence,,,shhhhhhh OK? now you then hear a giggle. That giggle exposes this dmbfkc idea lol
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phio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
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Re: What was... the first cause? [Re: CosmicJoke]
#23802917 - 11/05/16 10:16 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
CosmicJoke said: Radiohead always geeks me out and makes me overwhelmed with emotions, I have no idea where they even coming from because I'm such a thinking type. Gah, I still got the shivers.
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: What was... the first cause? [Re: zzripz]
#23804429 - 11/05/16 07:05 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
Quote:
connectedcosmos said: Was there an uncaused cause? What was the first cause to all of this?
Any opinions? ... Trying to imagine a 'First/beginning' is as humourous as trying to imagine an 'End', ...
Obviously, zzripz, you need more religion to stamp out that damned sense of humor you have!
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