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OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
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Re: Are you okay with the govt forcing people to abort children? [Re: topdog82]
    #23786751 - 10/30/16 08:11 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Not only that, but your idea actually implemented into practice would produce far more disastrous consequences.

For starters, somebody who gets pregnant while heavily addicted to benzo's or opiates or alcohol, cannot simply just quit while she is pregnant. If she tries to quit cold turkey, or even taper too fast, it will cause a miscarriage since her fetus won't be able to handle the withdrawal and will die.

So let's say somebody who is addicted to these things get pregnant. Now she is going to be afraid of the legal ramifications, so she goes for her entire pregnancy without prenatal care. That's 9 months without prenatal care, without any help or guidance from a doctor who could have gotten her some rehabilitation or proper treatment to get her off the drugs in a safe manner.


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Offlinetopdog82
Death Spirit
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Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 7,992
Loc: California
Last seen: 5 months, 3 days
Re: Are you okay with the govt forcing people to abort children? [Re: Crystal G]
    #23786892 - 10/30/16 09:00 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
People do far more damage through maltreatment and abuse of children due to their lack of education in regards to what is important in raising a child, and more importantly, the fact that they nearly always have buried down their own abuse and maltreatment because it is still so taboo to admit that we're all broken. Having the odd drink, smoke, or sniff during pregnancy is far from guaranteed to do any harm whatsoever. Stress hormones in the mother carrying probably do more harm, should we also jail people for being stressed?

How about free therapy for everyone to help them understand why the act the way they do, how to heal themselves, and thus how to avoid just passing all, or most, of their hangups and shitty behaviour along to their children, as so many parents do?

I think your path of thinking here (i.e, of punishment) is extremely immature, and is the last thing this world needs. Compassion and love is what we need, and punishment is the exact opposite of that.

You seem like a pretty openminded person TD, why you would think punishment is the answer bemuses me. Looking back over history, do you feel that punishment has ever really worked to keep us in check?

Shit, even incurring the wrath of the almighty god and being punished by burning forever in hell has hardly been shown to be a deterrent to stop taking actions which might lead one to that point.



Ya when you put it that way its a good point. I mean the drug war isn't really helping anyone. within the carrot versus stick paradigm, the stick does a lot more damage that we realize. and I guess this entire discussion is making me think twice about the original thesis I put forth
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

topdog82 said:
I guess this is what came up with a google search. Couldn't find the original article. If what you are saying is true, I am sorry for misinformation. But the fact that H may or may not cause birth defects is irrelevant. the main point was should we allow unfit drug addicted parents who practically knowingly caused serious mental retardation, a free pass? be it H or other drugs. For the context of the convo I chose meth. It could be alcohol or even cigs




Where the fuck is this "free pass" that you are talking about? CPS already confiscates children of parents who are using drugs, even for parents who smoke weed. If a woman shows up positive for any illegal drugs at the hospital when she gives birth, she already stands to lose custody.

Second of all, some countries such as France and Germany say that you can have up to a glass of wine a day even during pregnancy. In the 1950's, pregnant women smoked all the time, and most of those children turned out fine.



hahahah ya and people who smoke a joint can sometimes go to jail longer than rapists and murderers. Just because the current system is fucked and throws drug users in jail that doesn't really justify letting drug users harm innocent unborn sentient beings


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Offlinetopdog82
Death Spirit
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Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 7,992
Loc: California
Last seen: 5 months, 3 days
Re: Are you okay with the govt forcing people to abort children? [Re: Crystal G]
    #23786909 - 10/30/16 09:06 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Not only that, but your idea actually implemented into practice would produce far more disastrous consequences.

For starters, somebody who gets pregnant while heavily addicted to benzo's or opiates or alcohol, cannot simply just quit while she is pregnant. If she tries to quit cold turkey, or even taper too fast, it will cause a miscarriage since her fetus won't be able to handle the withdrawal and will die.

So let's say somebody who is addicted to these things get pregnant. Now she is going to be afraid of the legal ramifications, so she goes for her entire pregnancy without prenatal care. That's 9 months without prenatal care, without any help or guidance from a doctor who could have gotten her some rehabilitation or proper treatment to get her off the drugs in a safe manner.



okay this is also a very good counterpoint. I'll give credit where its due. I hope that if the drug war ends, addicts will get the help they need to wean off the drugs they are on

The way I look at it, is that most drug users are casual users. They just fuck around on the weekends. Thats me. Some drug users are habitual users. that used to be me. Then there are casual users of drugs who harm other people. Ie a rapist or murder who just so happens to smoke the occassional joint. Then theres habitual drug users who harm other people (but they too may just smoke weed or crack daily. Their crimes may have 0 to do with drugs or everything to do with drugs).

then theres the last percentage that really is the issue. drug users who harm others because of their drug use. realistically, if we legalized drugs and controlled/restricted them so that they were done in pure form and labeled properly, then this number would be about 1% of the total pool of drug users. and a woman who does xans whilst pregnant would most likely be in that group. I guess you two are pointing out the poor side effects of the policies I was supporting. Thats fair. the solution to our problems isn't more regulation, criminalization, and more govt. I guess at this point, I can just cross my fingers and hope that people make the right choices when given the objective info on the effects of their actions

also; if there are any typos on this post or my other ones, sorry. I was up all night on 2cb :cool:


Edited by topdog82 (10/30/16 09:07 PM)


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InvisibleDark_Star
train driver pervading a desktop
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Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 31,859
Loc: Uranus
Re: Are you okay with the govt forcing people to abort children? [Re: topdog82]
    #23786960 - 10/30/16 09:21 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

topdog82 said:
Quote:

Dark_Star said:
No, not fair at all.



why? whats your logic?

I just watched some news story about some kid who is basically autistic for life due to the moms heroin addiction?




Because it's not their choice to make, and making it for someone is wrong. And developmental delays don't mean that the child can't live a happy life. The government has no business denying that child's chance.


--------------------


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Offlinetopdog82
Death Spirit
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Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 7,992
Loc: California
Last seen: 5 months, 3 days
Re: Are you okay with the govt forcing people to abort children? [Re: Dark_Star]
    #23786967 - 10/30/16 09:23 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Dark_Star said:
Quote:

topdog82 said:
Quote:

Dark_Star said:
No, not fair at all.



why? whats your logic?

I just watched some news story about some kid who is basically autistic for life due to the moms heroin addiction?




Because it's not their choice to make, and making it for someone is wrong. And developmental delays don't mean that the child can't live a happy life. The government has no business denying that child's chance.



ya I know lol. if you read through this thread, I sort of revised my thesis. regardless, its a really shitty situation


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