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Invisiblevatman
I'm Vatman


Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 1,642
No soak no burst oat tek
    #23783186 - 10/29/16 04:52 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

This tek has been tested with oats. Will the concept will work for other grains.
Not recommend for wbs with cracked corn.

Oats have a water content of 10-13%. After you prepared them you want a roughly 50% water content.




So I weighed out 100grams of oats. So of that 100 grams you have roughly 87 grams of dry oat.

Since you have 13 grams of water already. Take your dry weight and subtract the wet weight from. Your dry weight.
So 87-13=74. This means you need 74 grams of water.

Pour the mix out in a Masson jar with the lid intact. no filters and so on.

Place the jar into a rice cooker. MAKE SURE your cooker has water in it to last 30-40 mins.

Also keep in mind your grains will increases in size while cooking. You don't need a Masson jar either. just a container that can fit in a rice cooker or your pressure cooker running at 5-10 psi. my rice cooker has a low psi. Experiment with 5 psi first than move up to 10 if you are feeling it.


Have the water boil for 30-40 mins. After the cycle is completed you will have minimal residual water. empty your jar or plastic container into a strainer. within a few seconds your grain will be dry on the outside.

(Was taken right after I poured out the grains)


Fully hydrated and ready to load up into some jars with gypsum. If you wish you can allow to cool for 12 hours for endo spore germination or load up on in a pc and run your cycle. their hydration level is high enough to allow endorse to germinate



Keep in mind a rice cooker is not needed and was used for ease of an experiment. your type and source of grain will have a varying result but overall it is constant and fast. use larger containers to prepare more grains at once. no soak is needed and pat grains want a water content of 50% including the water content all ready in your grain.

Do not hop right to 15 psi you will explode grains.

5 psi is my recommend psi

The larger the container you may need to run a little longer to ensure even distribution.

To further reduce chance of bursting grains you can let them soak for an hour or so.


I'll be updating later in the week with larger runs




Sources
https://mycotopia.net/topic/93548-an-aloha-medicinals-scholarship-month-log/page-3


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.alohamedicinals.com/book1/chapter-4-1.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwi0wPv2j__PAhUK2oMKHRcbDkYQFggcMAA&usg=AFQjCNHSjr348ugof0J9K8_bLl5Vk9hJAg&sig2=krWMlvCQ5QZ6hW5YuSiB9A


Edited by vatman (10/30/16 08:39 PM)


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Offlinewtfcrazymofo
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: vatman]
    #23783202 - 10/29/16 05:00 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

oats rule.


--------------------
If you want to eat->https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8553541

Bag sealers are to bulky (my hood isn't that big)
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28622922




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Invisiblevatman
I'm Vatman


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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: wtfcrazymofo]
    #23783219 - 10/29/16 05:09 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Yup you can get bigger loads inside a pc. I used the rice cooker as a test run and for ease of a test.

Due to how little excesses water your grains will dry to useable water content within a few seconds.

I have been annoyed with how long it would take to prep grains properly with correct moisture content. I'd follow a tek and than have to leave the grains out for a day before using them and I'd have unevenly hydrated grains .

I grow gourmet so I can burn a 50 lb bag of grains in a very short time


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Offlineenlightenment
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: wtfcrazymofo]
    #23783226 - 10/29/16 05:12 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I have 5kg wheat grains lying around. I don't know why but I like to soak my grains. It takes some time but gives me a better feeling for some reason. However I'll give it a try next week.


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Offlinewtfcrazymofo
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: vatman]
    #23783245 - 10/29/16 05:20 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

vatman said:


I grow gourmet so I can burn a 50 lb bag of grains in a very short time



:thumbup:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/postlist.php/Board/13


--------------------
If you want to eat->https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8553541

Bag sealers are to bulky (my hood isn't that big)
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28622922




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Invisiblevatman
I'm Vatman


Registered: 04/17/14
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: wtfcrazymofo]
    #23783264 - 10/29/16 05:25 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I know but felt like it would fit well here as this section is where I learned how to grow gourmet mushrooms.

There are a lot of teks here and would benefit the most people here. Most gourmet growers have their own methods that suit them. I'll post it there when I have refined it for larger bulk runs.

I'd like to use my camera but only have my shity phone until Tuesday.


Edited by vatman (10/29/16 05:28 PM)


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OfflineMushierage
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: vatman]
    #23783332 - 10/29/16 05:48 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Honestly, if you're going to be doing whole oats, I would always suggests Inocuoles method.  It works like a charm everytime, your oats are always thoroughly grey through and through (if done correctly) and your water content in your jars are very dry, which is great.  There is no tedious measuring, it works with any amount, whether you are doing 3 jars or 30 jars.


--------------------
Don't like researching posts? Read this! . Also, if you're new and your posts contain the words: Humidifer, incubator, air-stone, or heater, then you need to read and UTFSE before asking people to review your setup.  OR... You should be cultivating reptiles and fish, not mushrooms.



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Offlineenlightenment
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: Mushierage]
    #23783340 - 10/29/16 05:53 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Do you have a link for us? I don't want to use the search function right now :laugh:


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Offlinewtfcrazymofo
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: Mushierage]
    #23783344 - 10/29/16 05:54 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

That method is for babysitters. EYA's method rules https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22158748


--------------------
If you want to eat->https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8553541

Bag sealers are to bulky (my hood isn't that big)
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28622922




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Invisiblevatman
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: Mushierage]
    #23783350 - 10/29/16 05:56 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

This will work with rye, millet and so on.

Issue I was having with his tek my oats would take a long time to get to a correct external moisture for bags and sometimes jars. I ended up moving to a cold soak method by gr0wer that is more convenient than his.

Gr0wer's tek works great for jars and good for bags.

This is for something with an even moisture distribution without worries external excessive moisture on the grains themselves.


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OfflineMushierage
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: vatman]
    #23783400 - 10/29/16 06:12 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

You don't have to babysit with this method.  It doesn't even require cooking.    But follow the prep instructions and you will have perfect grain moisture and your jars won't be wet at all.  Which is good. 

Here's the link.


--------------------
Don't like researching posts? Read this! . Also, if you're new and your posts contain the words: Humidifer, incubator, air-stone, or heater, then you need to read and UTFSE before asking people to review your setup.  OR... You should be cultivating reptiles and fish, not mushrooms.



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Offlineenlightenment
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: Mushierage]
    #23783414 - 10/29/16 06:17 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

TY. I'll take a look.


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Offlinewtfcrazymofo
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: Mushierage]
    #23783424 - 10/29/16 06:21 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I don't like waiting for them to dry with a fan and an occasional shake.


--------------------
If you want to eat->https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8553541

Bag sealers are to bulky (my hood isn't that big)
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28622922




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OfflineMushierage
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: enlightenment]
    #23783429 - 10/29/16 06:23 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

It's actually specifically for people who -don't- like babysitting and want to have nearly no possibility of burst hulls.    I've done about 40 jars with this method so far and I don't intend on using anything else.


--------------------
Don't like researching posts? Read this! . Also, if you're new and your posts contain the words: Humidifer, incubator, air-stone, or heater, then you need to read and UTFSE before asking people to review your setup.  OR... You should be cultivating reptiles and fish, not mushrooms.



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OfflineMushierage
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: wtfcrazymofo]
    #23783439 - 10/29/16 06:26 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

wtfcrazymofo said:
I don't like waiting for them to dry with a fan and an occasional shake.




You should read the tek.  You don't dry with a fan.  You flash boil and dump in the grain and after 30 seconds, strain and spread.  Allow the outside to evaporate.  It does not take long at all.  Most of the outside moisture will evaporate, any remaining moisture (which is very very little generally gets absorbed in the PC process.


--------------------
Don't like researching posts? Read this! . Also, if you're new and your posts contain the words: Humidifer, incubator, air-stone, or heater, then you need to read and UTFSE before asking people to review your setup.  OR... You should be cultivating reptiles and fish, not mushrooms.



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Invisiblevatman
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: Mushierage] * 1
    #23783455 - 10/29/16 06:33 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I have had a few bursted hulls from that. I'd also would leave it under a fan for a day with his method.

I have over 5 strainers and couldn't get them to an external dryness before they stopped steaming


Also when you say excessive moisture gets cooked away. it has to go somewhere. it can over hydrate grains and cause condescension in the jars. So when you are doing bags and other large containers it can be an issue.


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OfflineMushierage
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: vatman]
    #23783482 - 10/29/16 06:43 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I didn't say excessive moisture.  I said most of the moisture evaporates.  You really want your grain to be pretty dry going in the jar on the outside, but you might have a tiny bit on the waxy hull.  When you PC, and have prepped correctly, you should have no additional condensation problems.    If it's excessive, you're obviously doing something wrong and should revisit how you are prepping.   

I've never once had a burst grain using this method, and being it's a no cook method, I call bullshit.


--------------------
Don't like researching posts? Read this! . Also, if you're new and your posts contain the words: Humidifer, incubator, air-stone, or heater, then you need to read and UTFSE before asking people to review your setup.  OR... You should be cultivating reptiles and fish, not mushrooms.



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Offlineenlightenment
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: vatman]
    #23783487 - 10/29/16 06:45 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Using a fan for one day is absolutely impractical. I think it could work if the remaining moisture is good calculated. But it would need some test to get the right feeling for it. Once you know your grain and how it reacts to moisture it could save some time. That's all theoretical.
I still like to soak for 12 hours, boil for 10 min, dry on a big surface for about 15-30 minutes and load my jars.
But saving the spreading over the surface and load it right to the jar sounds interesting to me because my kitchen gets dirty as f.. after spreading the grains all over the place.


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OfflineMushierage
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: enlightenment]
    #23783512 - 10/29/16 06:52 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

enlightenment said:
Using a fan for one day is absolutely impractical. I think it could work if the remaining moisture is good calculated. But it would need some test to get the right feeling for it. Once you know your grain and how it reacts to moisture it could save some time. That's all theoretical.
I still like to soak for 12 hours, boil for 10 min, dry on a big surface for about 15-30 minutes and load my jars.
But saving the spreading over the surface and load it right to the jar sounds interesting to me because my kitchen gets dirty as f.. after spreading the grains all over the place.




Agreed.  You can do the 12 hour soak (do in hot boiled water but don't boil the grain) then drain and boil another pot.  Then pour the boiled water on the grain and wait a minute or two, drain, strain and spread.  Let it evap and don't simmer or cook.  Your grain should already be grey throughout.  Load and PC. 

It's honestly the easiest method with grain I've seen and I've never once had a fucked up water content on a jar yet using it.


--------------------
Don't like researching posts? Read this! . Also, if you're new and your posts contain the words: Humidifer, incubator, air-stone, or heater, then you need to read and UTFSE before asking people to review your setup.  OR... You should be cultivating reptiles and fish, not mushrooms.



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Invisiblevatman
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: Mushierage]
    #23783523 - 10/29/16 06:56 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I agree with you in terms for jars but when using spawn bags I'd leave it out for a day or so. Also even with jars I'd let it sit out for a few hours after straining


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Invisiblevatman
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: vatman]
    #23785478 - 10/30/16 01:22 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

You can figure out 1 cup of your grain = x grams

1 cup of water = y grams.



Take the average of 10 or more cups.

I would use a lower water ratio of a 40-45% total moisture content vs the 50%

The lower water content to allow for a higher margin of error. The myc will still colonize. You would rather have a lower water content than one that is too high.


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Offlineblackout
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: vatman]
    #23785579 - 10/30/16 01:57 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

vatman said:
Oats have a water content of 10-13%. After you prepared them you want a roughly 50% water content.

So I weighed out 100grams of oats. So of that 100 grams you have roughly 87 grams of dry oat.

Measure out close to 87 grams of water.





You are adding 87g water to 100g oats, that is 187g in total, 100g of that is water (if the uncooked oats are 13% water) so I would call it 53.5% moisture content.

The problem with adding water and cooking is as the water is absorbed the water level drops in the jar, and then the upper grains are not submerged in water and so take on less water, and the grains at the bottom can take on too much water. To stop this I sometimes shake jars after they have cooked a bit.

I usually do monitor moisture levels of grains, I would simmer grains and strain off the boiling water into a pot and weigh the grains. If they need more moisture they go back into the pot to take on more. If there is only a tiny bit needed I sometimes would put the grains in jars and add more water to the jar which gets absorbed when cooked.

Some water is usually lost during the PC process too with regular filtered jars. I have cooked jars with no filters with tightened lids for extended times just below boiling point and they lose no water. I am trying this again with uncooked grains, 100g grain with 100g water added, and gypsum. I hope the lower temperature might result in less burst grains, and that the extended time might help them have more even water content.


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Offlineenlightenment
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: blackout]
    #23785624 - 10/30/16 02:14 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

blackout said:
The problem with adding water and cooking is as the water is absorbed the water level drops in the jar, and then the upper grains are not submerged in water and so take on less water, and the grains at the bottom can take on too much water.





Good point :thumbup:
I still give this method a try but what you wrote was what I thought about too.


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Invisiblevatman
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: blackout]
    #23785695 - 10/30/16 02:33 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Bah your right

Should have been 100*.87 to get the dry weight. That gives us a 87g dry. 87*.87= 75.69

So I should have added 75.69 grams of water to get a proper 50% water content
Or you can do

Get your dry weight and subtract the wet weight from that total and that gives you the amount of water needed.

So 100 grams of oat has 13% water. So gives you 87 dry grams and 13 grams water.

So 87-13=74 grams of water needed


(First math is approximate, second is exact)


Edited by vatman (10/30/16 02:48 PM)


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Offlinewtfcrazymofo
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: Mushierage]
    #23785727 - 10/30/16 02:43 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mushierage said:
Quote:

wtfcrazymofo said:
I don't like waiting for them to dry with a fan and an occasional shake.




You should read the tek.  You don't dry with a fan.  You flash boil and dump in the grain and after 30 seconds, strain and spread.  Allow the outside to evaporate.  It does not take long at all.  Most of the outside moisture will evaporate, any remaining moisture (which is very very little generally gets absorbed in the PC process.



I found this pic in the tek


--------------------
If you want to eat->https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8553541

Bag sealers are to bulky (my hood isn't that big)
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28622922




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Invisiblevatman
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: wtfcrazymofo]
    #23785742 - 10/30/16 02:46 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Yup and that is what I'm trying to avoid.


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OfflineMushierage
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: wtfcrazymofo]
    #23785750 - 10/30/16 02:48 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

You can do it to help it dry faster, but it really isn't necessary from my experience with it. The tek doesn't call for it, just that it's quicker. Just spread it out, walk away for about 20 minutes, come back and toss it around a couple times, give it another 10, and load and PC.

If you're in a hurry, do it.  If not, don't.  I never find that I'm in a super big rush to make grain jars.  If you are... well.  Calm the fuck down and enjoy life or something.  Smoke a cigarette.  Or a giant doobie.


--------------------
Don't like researching posts? Read this! . Also, if you're new and your posts contain the words: Humidifer, incubator, air-stone, or heater, then you need to read and UTFSE before asking people to review your setup.  OR... You should be cultivating reptiles and fish, not mushrooms.



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OfflineFerather
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: Mushierage]
    #23785803 - 10/30/16 03:02 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Not 100% sure why you would want bacterial endospores to germinate.
Otherwise nice up-to-date clean grain prep guide.


--------------------
                   

Growing mushrooms, general guide and information (Ferather's Journal), https://ibb.co/rG3rML2

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27857366#27857366

DTS DCH Driver for Realtek [DTS:X] - Unlocked and reprogrammed.


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Offlinewtfcrazymofo
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Re: No soak no burst or babysit oat tek [Re: vatman]
    #23785837 - 10/30/16 03:11 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

:bigblunt:


--------------------
If you want to eat->https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8553541

Bag sealers are to bulky (my hood isn't that big)
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28622922




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Invisiblevatman
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: Ferather]
    #23785862 - 10/30/16 03:19 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Endo spores have augments on both sides. 

Hence the option. I have done both no endospore germination and without. Both succeeded.

Would need a need someone with a legit clean room the do the research on it. rule of thumb it seems to be if your bags have the right moisture content you won't have explosions of bacteria


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Offlineenlightenment
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Re: No soak no burst or babysit oat tek [Re: wtfcrazymofo]
    #23785863 - 10/30/16 03:19 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Ferather said:
Not 100% sure why you would want bacterial endospores to germinate.
Otherwise nice up-to-date clean grain prep guide.




If endospores are 'inside' the grain they are hard to kill in the PC cycle. That's the theory about it. So you want to let them germinate to kill them afterwards with your PC. I never did tests about it because I always soak my grain before i boil it.


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OfflineFerather
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Re: No soak no burst or babysit oat tek [Re: enlightenment]
    #23785899 - 10/30/16 03:27 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Ok ok, vatman is being safe with twin arguments, fair enough.
I will link you to these two web pages, here and here.

No more than 20 mins, if its not raging hot.
I will say no more on the subject.

Nice guide vatman  :thumbup:


--------------------
                   

Growing mushrooms, general guide and information (Ferather's Journal), https://ibb.co/rG3rML2

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27857366#27857366

DTS DCH Driver for Realtek [DTS:X] - Unlocked and reprogrammed.


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Invisiblevatman
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Re: No soak no burst or babysit oat tek [Re: Ferather]
    #23785950 - 10/30/16 03:39 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Thank you and all endospores can be killed in a pc at 15 psi or boiling them in water for 6 hours.

http://textbookofbacteriology.net/control.html

Another test someone can do test. Take some grains. one with a no endo spore germination another with germination.

Put them on a few different dishes and show bacterial growth comparably


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OfflineFerather
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Re: No soak no burst or babysit oat tek [Re: vatman]
    #23785957 - 10/30/16 03:41 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Thats true, would like to see that in a controlled environment.


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Re: No soak no burst or babysit oat tek [Re: Ferather]
    #23785983 - 10/30/16 03:47 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Would need decent sample size over a few runs would be needed to get dependable results.

I Don't have the time or resources for that right now. full time student with limited income and all.


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Re: No soak no burst or babysit oat tek [Re: Ferather]
    #23785988 - 10/30/16 03:49 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

If some people are interested in a test like this I would give it a try next weekend with 20 dishes (10 soaked and boiled / 10 not soaked not boiled). That may not be enough to get a clear result but maybe it is worth a try.


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Re: No soak no burst or babysit oat tek [Re: enlightenment]
    #23786002 - 10/30/16 03:53 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I would recommend hydrating the grains that are not soaked. I would do my prep, make sure they have correct moisture content. The endos inside the grain won't germinate without water.


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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: vatman]
    #23786096 - 10/30/16 04:17 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

vatman said:
So 100 grams of oat has 13% water. So gives you 87 dry grams and 13 grams water.

So 87-13=74 grams of water needed



Yep, the other way to look at it is 100g will have 87g dry matter. If 87g is going to be 50% then the total weight should be double, so your overall weight should be 174g. So the exact same result, need to add 74g water, some might prefer thinking of it one way or the other, it can be a weird one for some people to get their head around.


Also if you weigh dry grains and simmer in excess water and drain them then a small % of weight will be lost as its washed away with the now dirty simmer water. Probably not enough to worry about.

Another way I do it is get a jar and weigh it, say is 210g. I add 100g grain and want a recipe of 100g grain 100g water. So I know my overall weight should be 410g, I write the weights on many of my jars. I can add excess water to the jar and leave it to soak fully sumberged. I sometimes put them in the fridge to do this. Then after it has soaked I strain the water off by leaving the cap a bit loose and pouring it out, then add in water until it reaches 410g. I would wash the cap and wipe the lip area so no nutrients are left there. This is a handy for me as I do not have to strain out the grains and have to spoon them back into the jar. You could also add boiling or hot water for the first soak so it gets closer to the moisture level you want so you have to add less water at the end. Though some might be happy with lower moisture levels anyway. This means water will still be in the bottom of the jar which is not ideal but a little better than no soak at all with regards to the issue I talked of before, the top grains being exposed as moisture is absorbed.


Edited by blackout (10/30/16 04:28 PM)


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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: blackout]
    #23786118 - 10/30/16 04:23 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Aloha seem to think rinsing the grain is not worth It It terms of BE. As you loose nutrition I'm the rinse of grains. it would also put more guess work in this tek.  It wouldn't make it fail but would need you add less water to accommodate


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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: vatman]
    #23786190 - 10/30/16 04:41 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

vatman said:
Aloha seem to think rinsing the grain is not worth It It terms of BE. As you loose nutrition I'm the rinse of grains.



Yeah, but then they have another set of instructions which did simmer grains. I know RR liked the cleaner grain that simmering will give, less dirt & crap on them, so they shake a lot better. I have washed grains in water with washing up liquid, rubbing them together cleans them up well, then rinse it all off. This short wash should not get rid of as much of the water soluble nutrients which I read Aloha were concerned with.

Others have soaked in water with antibacterial washing up liquid, this was really for the antibacterial properties and not for washing like I was. As the soap is a wetting agent it might hydrate them a bit more too, but could leave unwanted stuff in the grain too.


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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: blackout]
    #23786212 - 10/30/16 04:48 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Very interesting.


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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: blackout]
    #23786219 - 10/30/16 04:49 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

It seems like soap doesn't influence mycelium growth in a bad way. RR uses soap in his straw tek. If it would affect the growth he wouldn't use it IMO. Of course it feels weird to eat mushrooms that have been grown on soapy straw.


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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: blackout]
    #23786239 - 10/30/16 04:53 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Gypsum is used to stopping clumping. I've used no gypsum with just soaks without a rinse and that works fine for grains.

So really there is no requirement to soak. It would boil down to it being a preference more than anything


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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: vatman]
    #23786772 - 10/30/16 08:21 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Here is some supporting documentation for this tek that it was based off of.

https://mycotopia.net/topic/93548-an-aloha-medicinals-scholarship-month-log/page-3

Skip to day 15. This doctor has a different opinion then Roger.


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.alohamedicinals.com/book1/chapter-4-1.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwi0wPv2j__PAhUK2oMKHRcbDkYQFggcMAA&usg=AFQjCNHSjr348ugof0J9K8_bLl5Vk9hJAg&sig2=krWMlvCQ5QZ6hW5YuSiB9A

Pdf page 10. The first tek in this document is pure steam hydration inside a pc


Edited by vatman (10/30/16 08:25 PM)


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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: vatman]
    #23787594 - 10/31/16 06:06 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

The Doctors method is aimed at max BE, little mention on bacteria specifics.
This is where the side-by-side controlled bacteria test will shine.


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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: Ferather]
    #23787821 - 10/31/16 08:45 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

That would be a rinse before a soak or a rinse before my prep.

You can germinate the endos by letting it cool in a jar for 12 hours before pcing


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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: vatman]
    #23789789 - 10/31/16 08:20 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Tested a gallon jar today in a pressure cooker. it hydration was a little uneven. I shook it up and was able to redistribute the grains. running a 50% water ratio was a Little low.


The was very few popes grains during uneven hydration.


My next plan is to run at 53% hydration. I will try a boil for 15 shake boil for 15. Again all excessive moisture was almost none existent. Was really to be loaded back into jars after being dumped.


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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: vatman]
    #23791638 - 11/01/16 03:02 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

My jars with about even amounts of water & grain were very unevenly hdyrated too. Most are 400-500ml jars and had 150g water 150g grain added. Tops were dry bottom had many burst grains. The gypsum worked pretty well, still shakeable, but I opened a few and they were very sticky. I rinsed them off and am heat treating again.

I pretty much expected this but wondered if the lower temp would lead to less bursting. They were at about 95C for about 3 days.

I think shaking will help hugely after they have cooked for a while. I shook mine after the 3 days and hours later they did seem to have distributed the moisture pretty well, but the damage of the burst grains was done. Some grains like rye grass seed (RGS) do not really burst. But semi dry grains take longer times to sterilize IME


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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: blackout]
    #23793033 - 11/01/16 09:02 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

My next rub is going to be in the pressure cooker without the lid tighten down and shaking them as needed


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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: vatman]
    #24735320 - 10/24/17 10:08 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

This is something interesting to try for sure. might dedicate a few jars to this seeing how it works out. Never used oat before.


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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: Aunit]
    #26614396 - 04/20/20 05:36 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I found this thread because i was thinking exactly the same thing tonight, not just for expediation but also nutrient maximisation. I can't see why it couldn't be done by placing straight in the pressure cooker and launching straight into (a long ~2hr) 15psi mode using vented grain jars. An equilibrium sets up between the steam on the outside of the jar and that inside it, so moisture content in the jar shouldn't change much as long as vents are coverd and don't allow liquid water to enter the jar. Well worth a try me thinks. Provided correct hydration is achieved, the extra nutrients should be beneficial. I don't see there being a difference in hydration between the top and the bottom either as I'm sure saturated steam would hydrate the grain just as well as liquid H2O.


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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: PyeR2]
    #26614398 - 04/20/20 05:40 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I tried that once with grain and I ended up with a bunch of burst, soaked grains on the bottom and dry grains on the top.

It's completely possible I did something wrong.


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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: poisoned]
    #26614572 - 04/20/20 07:54 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

poisoned said:
I tried that once with grain and I ended up with a bunch of burst, soaked grains on the bottom and dry grains on the top.

It's completely possible I did something wrong.




I'm doing a trial right now so I'll have some information in the morning. I had some gsw to sterilise after a convention prep today so thought I may as well add a couple of pint jars. One has 100g oats + 74g H2O. I assumed dry oats already contained 13% water. The other jar contains 90g dry oats - I'm interested to see if/how much hydration occurs from steam alone. Both jars have FEA filters on the lid and are covered with foil. See what happens.


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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: PyeR2]
    #26616254 - 04/20/20 08:15 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Well the results are in, and unfortunately they're in line with poisoned's experience. The grains on top are hydrated somewhat but definitely drier than the bottom. The bottom layer is slightly over-hydrated as evidenced by some sticking to fingers and hands.



LHS, Oats 100g + H2O 74g. Pressure cooked 15psi for 2hrs.
Start weight 174g. Finish weight 168.28g. (-5.72g, -3.3%)

RHS, Oats 90g.
Start weight 90g. Finish weight 91.44g. (+1.44g, +1.6%)

The loss of water content inside the 1st jar is in line with expectations - as the pressure cooker vents steam (pressure) the jar would contribute to that loss.

The 2nd jar result surprised me somewhat. Whilst I didn't expect full hydration, I would have thought saturated steam would have hydrated the grains more than it did in 2hrs. I suppose once a small amount of water (steam) enters the jar, the equilibrium sets up pretty quickly.   



The pic illustrates the differece in hydration between a teaspoon of grains taken from the top and bottom of the jar. Endosperms were easily squeezed from the top grains using fingers whereas almost impossible to do so from bottom grains unless using fingernails. The top grains stuck to fingers a bit whereas bottom grains did not. The top grains clearly look plumper and more hydrated than the bottom ones too.

So there's my result for a 2hr pressure cook. Perhaps a longer cycle would give a different result. It's worth mentioning that no burst grains were evident at all, and the overall integrity of the grain looked better than soaked grains, even those on the bottom. If I get the inspiration later I might try a 4hr PC and see what gives.


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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: PyeR2]
    #26616293 - 04/20/20 08:32 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I’ve been messing with this for a while too and it works for me.

I think a 20 minute soak may help disperse the water more evenly.

I have had success with no soak also but I had to shake the jar while still hot so the dryer grains mix with the lower, wetter grains and it came out good.

Like bod always says, dryer is better and myc really doesn’t take much h20 to grow.

I have some pics of my ratios to water if anyone interested.....


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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: san pedro guy]
    #26616357 - 04/20/20 08:53 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

san pedro guy said:
I’ve been messing with this for a while too and it works for me.

I think a 20 minute soak may help disperse the water more evenly.

I have had success with no soak also but I had to shake the jar while still hot so the dryer grains mix with the lower, wetter grains and it came out good.

Like bod always says, dryer is better and myc really doesn’t take much h20 to grow.

I have some pics of my ratios to water if anyone interested.....




Interesting, when you say 20min soak may help, are you talking a separate soak in excess water or do you allow them to soak in-situ in the jar in just the prescribed amount of water?

Shaking the jars is impractical if you launch straight into a PC cycle.

I have a 10L stainless steel tumbler. One thought i had was to load grain and just enough water to facilitate correct hydration into the tumbler and tumble until the grains had absorbed all the water. That should achieve even hydration.

I agree with Bod that dryer is better. I also tend to agree with Violet's theory on wasting nutes by tossing them out with GSW. I'm keen to try his straight grain (no bulk) technique.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18135103  (Violets Thread)

It's a long read but much of what he says makes a lot of sense.


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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: PyeR2]
    #26616365 - 04/20/20 08:57 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Can we just say this Tek seems like more work than is necessary?

I haven't done it so I can't personally advocate for or against.


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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: Sockadin]
    #26616393 - 04/20/20 09:08 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Sockadin said:
Can we just say this Tek seems like more work than is necessary?

I haven't done it so I can't personally advocate for or against.




If it's a case of just loading jars with grain and water and pressure cooking then the work would be less but I don't know whether that's achievable yet. I am actually more interested in keeping all the nutrients in the jar rather than tossing them out, and would even be prepared to do a little more work to achieve this if I were rewarded with higher yields/potency.


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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: PyeR2]
    #26616401 - 04/20/20 09:12 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Sockadin said:
Can we just say this Tek seems like more work than is necessary?

I haven't done it so I can't personally advocate for or against.




The way I do is def less work.

1. Add clean dry grains into a quart jar (little less than half full)
2. Add water to that jar till you can see it about .5 to .75 of an inch from the top of the grains
3. PC and give it a shake when pressure is down

pye- When I said soak I mean in the jar. I had an extra jar I had prepped but not cooked and noticed the grains absorbed the water at the bottom, gave it a shake and there were no dry vs wet grains at the end of the cycle.

Just read the op and yea that’s too much weighing and bs. I eyeball the amounts an it comes out perfect. The only issue I had initially was adding too much grain and water and I also had very dusty grains that clumped up.


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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: san pedro guy]
    #26616414 - 04/20/20 09:19 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I'm gonna bet this doesn't work for all grains.

Some grains like wheat need to be rinsed. Some grains like oats love to release starches when boiled for 2hrs in water..

Here is my take.

WBS- if you have corn it will get starchy.
Rye- could work if water content is right
Rye Grass seed- probably the best to use this method.
Oats- will get starchy
Corn-Starchy
Safflower-oily
Black seed sunflower-oily
Wheat-clumpy
Barley-clumpy
Millet- could work


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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: Sockadin]
    #26616433 - 04/20/20 09:27 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

You’re probably right but I’ve used oats for months and they don’t get starchy.

Might have a couple burst on the bottom but nowhere near enough to ruin the entire jar...

Would be interesting to see experimenting on wheat...


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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: san pedro guy]
    #26616696 - 04/21/20 01:45 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

san pedro guy said:
You’re probably right but I’ve used oats for months and they don’t get starchy.

Might have a couple burst on the bottom but nowhere near enough to ruin the entire jar...

Would be interesting to see experimenting on wheat...




I used oats also and not starchy at all even towards the bottom. Not a single burst grain either that I noticed although the sample size is pretty small so that observation may not be conclusive. I do believe the oats looked in better condition than after a soak prep - not as ragged or something. 

Quote:

san pedro guy said:
pye- When I said soak I mean in the jar. I had an extra jar I had prepped but not cooked and noticed the grains absorbed the water at the bottom, gave it a shake and there were no dry vs wet grains at the end of the cycle.




Thanks San Pedro, I might give that a try. I'm not convinced that you wouldn't just end up with a mixture of wet & dry grains but proof is in the eating as they say. Would a mix of wet and dry really matter? Perhaps the moisture distribution evens out with more time. I'm definitely going to do some more experimentation on this.


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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: PyeR2]
    #26616858 - 04/21/20 05:52 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Soaking grains does absolutely nothing. I did a 14 day soak and they visually appear just as hydrated as non soaked after a proper boil.

This is what your shooting for.



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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: Sockadin]
    #26625502 - 04/24/20 07:27 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Apparently this process is a 'thing' - mentioned a few times in RR's notes thread ....

*Use twice as much grass seed by volume as water. For a 1-quart jar, use 1 1/4-cup rye grass seed, and 5/8-cup water. Add a pinch of gypsum between your thumb and forefinger per jar. Put a solid lid on the jar and shake well. Allow to sit for an hour or two, and then shake again. Replace the solid lid with a filtered lid, and PC for an hour at 15 psi. Rye grass seed makes an excellent grain master, because you can easily do a grain-to-grain transfer into 20 jars. I won't go over ten jars with rye berries. It's also a great spawn to bulk substrates, because of all the inoculation points. It also seems less susceptible to trichoderma then the larger rye berries. We usually don't recommend it to new growers because it often takes quite a few tries to get the moisture right. If it's too wet, the mycelium can't colonize. Ditto if it's too dry. The above plan should work out for you though. RYE GRASS SEED

&

*Rye grass seed needs to be mixed with half as much water by volume as you have grass seed. For a quart jar, I use 1 1/4 cup of grass seed, and 5/8 cup of water. Add a pinch of gypsum between your thumb and forefinger per jar. Half the amount of water can be substituted with brewed coffee. I put a solid lid on the jar after mixing and shake well. Allow to sit over night, and then shake again. Replace the solid lid with a filtered lid and PC for an hour at 15psi. RYE GRASS SEED

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8468463/fpart/1/vc/1

So whether it works for all grains or gives better or worse results I don't know. Pretty much what San Pedro Guy does. The secret appears to be in a short soak and shake to evenly distribute the moisture before PC'ing.


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