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vatman
I'm Vatman


Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 1,642
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: vatman]
#23785478 - 10/30/16 01:22 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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You can figure out 1 cup of your grain = x grams
1 cup of water = y grams.
Take the average of 10 or more cups.
I would use a lower water ratio of a 40-45% total moisture content vs the 50%
The lower water content to allow for a higher margin of error. The myc will still colonize. You would rather have a lower water content than one that is too high.
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blackout


Registered: 07/16/00
Posts: 5,266
Last seen: 2 months, 25 days
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: vatman]
#23785579 - 10/30/16 01:57 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
vatman said: Oats have a water content of 10-13%. After you prepared them you want a roughly 50% water content.
So I weighed out 100grams of oats. So of that 100 grams you have roughly 87 grams of dry oat.
Measure out close to 87 grams of water.
You are adding 87g water to 100g oats, that is 187g in total, 100g of that is water (if the uncooked oats are 13% water) so I would call it 53.5% moisture content.
The problem with adding water and cooking is as the water is absorbed the water level drops in the jar, and then the upper grains are not submerged in water and so take on less water, and the grains at the bottom can take on too much water. To stop this I sometimes shake jars after they have cooked a bit.
I usually do monitor moisture levels of grains, I would simmer grains and strain off the boiling water into a pot and weigh the grains. If they need more moisture they go back into the pot to take on more. If there is only a tiny bit needed I sometimes would put the grains in jars and add more water to the jar which gets absorbed when cooked.
Some water is usually lost during the PC process too with regular filtered jars. I have cooked jars with no filters with tightened lids for extended times just below boiling point and they lose no water. I am trying this again with uncooked grains, 100g grain with 100g water added, and gypsum. I hope the lower temperature might result in less burst grains, and that the extended time might help them have more even water content.
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enlightenment
alchemist


Registered: 08/09/09
Posts: 1,647
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 8 months, 21 days
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: blackout]
#23785624 - 10/30/16 02:14 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
blackout said: The problem with adding water and cooking is as the water is absorbed the water level drops in the jar, and then the upper grains are not submerged in water and so take on less water, and the grains at the bottom can take on too much water.
Good point  I still give this method a try but what you wrote was what I thought about too.
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vatman
I'm Vatman


Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 1,642
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: blackout]
#23785695 - 10/30/16 02:33 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Bah your right
Should have been 100*.87 to get the dry weight. That gives us a 87g dry. 87*.87= 75.69
So I should have added 75.69 grams of water to get a proper 50% water content Or you can do
Get your dry weight and subtract the wet weight from that total and that gives you the amount of water needed.
So 100 grams of oat has 13% water. So gives you 87 dry grams and 13 grams water.
So 87-13=74 grams of water needed
(First math is approximate, second is exact)
Edited by vatman (10/30/16 02:48 PM)
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wtfcrazymofo
foil hater



Registered: 07/26/15
Posts: 1,201
Loc: Colonial alley
Last seen: 10 hours, 46 minutes
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: Mushierage]
#23785727 - 10/30/16 02:43 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mushierage said:
Quote:
wtfcrazymofo said: I don't like waiting for them to dry with a fan and an occasional shake.
You should read the tek. You don't dry with a fan. You flash boil and dump in the grain and after 30 seconds, strain and spread. Allow the outside to evaporate. It does not take long at all. Most of the outside moisture will evaporate, any remaining moisture (which is very very little generally gets absorbed in the PC process.
I found this pic in the tek
-------------------- If you want to eat->https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8553541 Bag sealers are to bulky (my hood isn't that big) https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28622922
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vatman
I'm Vatman


Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 1,642
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Yup and that is what I'm trying to avoid.
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Mushierage
SWIM Sinker



Registered: 06/29/16
Posts: 1,094
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
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You can do it to help it dry faster, but it really isn't necessary from my experience with it. The tek doesn't call for it, just that it's quicker. Just spread it out, walk away for about 20 minutes, come back and toss it around a couple times, give it another 10, and load and PC.
If you're in a hurry, do it. If not, don't. I never find that I'm in a super big rush to make grain jars. If you are... well. Calm the fuck down and enjoy life or something. Smoke a cigarette. Or a giant doobie.
-------------------- Don't like researching posts? Read this! . Also, if you're new and your posts contain the words: Humidifer, incubator, air-stone, or heater, then you need to read and UTFSE before asking people to review your setup. OR... You should be cultivating reptiles and fish, not mushrooms.
  
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: Mushierage]
#23785803 - 10/30/16 03:02 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Not 100% sure why you would want bacterial endospores to germinate. Otherwise nice up-to-date clean grain prep guide.
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wtfcrazymofo
foil hater



Registered: 07/26/15
Posts: 1,201
Loc: Colonial alley
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Re: No soak no burst or babysit oat tek [Re: vatman]
#23785837 - 10/30/16 03:11 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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-------------------- If you want to eat->https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8553541 Bag sealers are to bulky (my hood isn't that big) https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28622922
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vatman
I'm Vatman


Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 1,642
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: Ferather]
#23785862 - 10/30/16 03:19 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Endo spores have augments on both sides.
Hence the option. I have done both no endospore germination and without. Both succeeded.
Would need a need someone with a legit clean room the do the research on it. rule of thumb it seems to be if your bags have the right moisture content you won't have explosions of bacteria
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enlightenment
alchemist


Registered: 08/09/09
Posts: 1,647
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 8 months, 21 days
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Re: No soak no burst or babysit oat tek [Re: wtfcrazymofo]
#23785863 - 10/30/16 03:19 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferather said: Not 100% sure why you would want bacterial endospores to germinate. Otherwise nice up-to-date clean grain prep guide.
If endospores are 'inside' the grain they are hard to kill in the PC cycle. That's the theory about it. So you want to let them germinate to kill them afterwards with your PC. I never did tests about it because I always soak my grain before i boil it.
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: No soak no burst or babysit oat tek [Re: enlightenment]
#23785899 - 10/30/16 03:27 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ok ok, vatman is being safe with twin arguments, fair enough. I will link you to these two web pages, here and here.
No more than 20 mins, if its not raging hot. I will say no more on the subject.
Nice guide vatman
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vatman
I'm Vatman


Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 1,642
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Re: No soak no burst or babysit oat tek [Re: Ferather]
#23785950 - 10/30/16 03:39 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Thank you and all endospores can be killed in a pc at 15 psi or boiling them in water for 6 hours.
http://textbookofbacteriology.net/control.html
Another test someone can do test. Take some grains. one with a no endo spore germination another with germination.
Put them on a few different dishes and show bacterial growth comparably
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: No soak no burst or babysit oat tek [Re: vatman]
#23785957 - 10/30/16 03:41 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Thats true, would like to see that in a controlled environment.
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vatman
I'm Vatman


Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 1,642
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Re: No soak no burst or babysit oat tek [Re: Ferather]
#23785983 - 10/30/16 03:47 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Would need decent sample size over a few runs would be needed to get dependable results.
I Don't have the time or resources for that right now. full time student with limited income and all.
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enlightenment
alchemist


Registered: 08/09/09
Posts: 1,647
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 8 months, 21 days
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Re: No soak no burst or babysit oat tek [Re: Ferather]
#23785988 - 10/30/16 03:49 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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If some people are interested in a test like this I would give it a try next weekend with 20 dishes (10 soaked and boiled / 10 not soaked not boiled). That may not be enough to get a clear result but maybe it is worth a try.
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vatman
I'm Vatman


Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 1,642
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Re: No soak no burst or babysit oat tek [Re: enlightenment]
#23786002 - 10/30/16 03:53 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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I would recommend hydrating the grains that are not soaked. I would do my prep, make sure they have correct moisture content. The endos inside the grain won't germinate without water.
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blackout


Registered: 07/16/00
Posts: 5,266
Last seen: 2 months, 25 days
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: vatman]
#23786096 - 10/30/16 04:17 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
vatman said: So 100 grams of oat has 13% water. So gives you 87 dry grams and 13 grams water.
So 87-13=74 grams of water needed
Yep, the other way to look at it is 100g will have 87g dry matter. If 87g is going to be 50% then the total weight should be double, so your overall weight should be 174g. So the exact same result, need to add 74g water, some might prefer thinking of it one way or the other, it can be a weird one for some people to get their head around.
Also if you weigh dry grains and simmer in excess water and drain them then a small % of weight will be lost as its washed away with the now dirty simmer water. Probably not enough to worry about.
Another way I do it is get a jar and weigh it, say is 210g. I add 100g grain and want a recipe of 100g grain 100g water. So I know my overall weight should be 410g, I write the weights on many of my jars. I can add excess water to the jar and leave it to soak fully sumberged. I sometimes put them in the fridge to do this. Then after it has soaked I strain the water off by leaving the cap a bit loose and pouring it out, then add in water until it reaches 410g. I would wash the cap and wipe the lip area so no nutrients are left there. This is a handy for me as I do not have to strain out the grains and have to spoon them back into the jar. You could also add boiling or hot water for the first soak so it gets closer to the moisture level you want so you have to add less water at the end. Though some might be happy with lower moisture levels anyway. This means water will still be in the bottom of the jar which is not ideal but a little better than no soak at all with regards to the issue I talked of before, the top grains being exposed as moisture is absorbed.
Edited by blackout (10/30/16 04:28 PM)
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vatman
I'm Vatman


Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 1,642
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: blackout]
#23786118 - 10/30/16 04:23 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Aloha seem to think rinsing the grain is not worth It It terms of BE. As you loose nutrition I'm the rinse of grains. it would also put more guess work in this tek. It wouldn't make it fail but would need you add less water to accommodate
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blackout


Registered: 07/16/00
Posts: 5,266
Last seen: 2 months, 25 days
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: vatman]
#23786190 - 10/30/16 04:41 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
vatman said: Aloha seem to think rinsing the grain is not worth It It terms of BE. As you loose nutrition I'm the rinse of grains.
Yeah, but then they have another set of instructions which did simmer grains. I know RR liked the cleaner grain that simmering will give, less dirt & crap on them, so they shake a lot better. I have washed grains in water with washing up liquid, rubbing them together cleans them up well, then rinse it all off. This short wash should not get rid of as much of the water soluble nutrients which I read Aloha were concerned with.
Others have soaked in water with antibacterial washing up liquid, this was really for the antibacterial properties and not for washing like I was. As the soap is a wetting agent it might hydrate them a bit more too, but could leave unwanted stuff in the grain too.
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