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Invisiblesudly
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How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness?
    #23775032 - 10/26/16 10:27 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

If anyone is following I've had an avid interest in a concept of biologically evolution that describes the human experience of sensations and perceptions.

The theory I am developing is based upon the Central Nervous System(CNS) and the Peripheral Nervous System(PNS) and it is used to describe how they interact in a Tripartite model. 

As I am writing it I realise that some aspects of biology and psychology are esoteric and not known to the majority.



How would I introduce someone to such a topic so that they don't become defensive?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness? [Re: sudly]
    #23775118 - 10/26/16 10:52 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

go slowly
include animals not just humans
don't make it more complicated than it already is.


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OfflineHippocampus
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Re: How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23776615 - 10/27/16 12:34 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I would say consciousness is some wanker philosophical idea that has no real meaning, so let's just drop it already.  Let's just talk about evolution and biology?


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Offlineviktor
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Re: How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness? [Re: Hippocampus] * 2
    #23776708 - 10/27/16 01:07 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Make sure they're a materialist first, or they simply will not believe in the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness.


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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Invisibleremake
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Re: How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness? [Re: sudly]
    #23776896 - 10/27/16 02:12 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Work on a hypothesis for why your theory would be contributive to the actual benefit of humanity and other species, do not make it about yourself, in the sense of benefiting only you - not that I think you did, just saying though. Make yourself and your mind malleable to change. Pose questions, and fill them in using your knowledge. Do not make a set of answers, rather create a foundation so that you could ensure growth and development.


Edited by remake (10/27/16 03:30 PM)


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness? [Re: remake]
    #23777237 - 10/27/16 03:46 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I already have a thesis statement and all that, I guess a list of questions is what I'd need.

So what kind of simple questions could I answer?


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Invisibleremake
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Re: How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness? [Re: sudly]
    #23777254 - 10/27/16 03:50 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I think the main issue with suggesting this to other people would be the defence they would put up if it appears as if it is an attack on their personal beliefs - concerning identity issues and so forth. So just see if you could tip toe around that, I would say - not in any sinister way. People don't like other people telling them what to think, but obviously if your theory is mutually beneficial, in a way that it can be applied to the physical world, you should not suppress it.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness? [Re: remake]
    #23777281 - 10/27/16 03:58 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

The only benefit of this theory is knowledge but I guess that can be applied to fields of biology and psychology in the future.

So maybe the first question should be, do you want to know the origin of conscience?

It seems a bit upfront but that's exactly what I'm trying to address.

I think the most difficult aspect to hurdle over is the fact that I'm essentially trying to redefine consciousness and conscience.

In my eyes all living organisms even viruses have a consciousness in the form of external awareness.

On the other hand I belive that a conscience is defined by internal awareness and it is what makes humans unique when compared to everyday animals. The exception to this is service animals such as guide dogs because they do display a conscience like intelligence, e.g. smelling cancer, avoiding traffic.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Edited by sudly (10/27/16 04:04 PM)


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Invisibleremake
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Re: How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness? [Re: sudly]
    #23777344 - 10/27/16 04:16 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

If it has sociological benefits it could also be a more attractive idea. Investigate every avenue as they open up. Yes, we are in an extremely fortunate position. Only thing restricting us is our imagination - I know I say this a lot - but each one of us - has a wealth of potential, unique to ourselves - context and everything included - that can help the world progress into something better.

I don't understand much of what your saying, it's not my forte, haha. I just have ideas on how to develop ideas, so that's all I can say...


Edited by remake (10/27/16 07:43 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness? [Re: sudly]
    #23777350 - 10/27/16 04:18 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

like i say it wont be good if you write a book like that yet

all animals have a lot more going for them than you give credit, and humans are not that much different so any view that claims to be scientific which skews your way will be ignorant as anyone with a dog or cat or bird can tell you.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23777372 - 10/27/16 04:26 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

The biological aspects are rather esoteric but that's what I hope to make easier to understand, because as they say if you want to better understand something it's best to be able to describe it in simple terms.

I gave all animals the credit of experiencing external awareness, this includes all biological functions other than perception.

What I'm claiming is the difference between a human that has conscience and an animal that only experiences consciousness is perception.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness? [Re: sudly]
    #23778274 - 10/27/16 08:29 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

when you use words they should mean one thing,
if you use too many words to mean the same thing (sometimes) or other things
well you see
then things get really sloppy and stoopid.

perception is kinda nasty and I think it's going to bite you hard, because it is what happens when a sensation is recognized.

if it is recognized that means memory is functioning.

animals definitely recognize shit.

ergo they perceive, unless you want that word to mean something else

and if you keep shifting the meanings of words - then I ain't playing with you no more.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23778318 - 10/27/16 08:40 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Animals have sensations but that doesn't mean they inherently have perception or the ability to conceptualise an idea from those perceptions.

To me consciousness means one thing and it is external awareness.
To me conscience means one thing and it is internal awareness.

These words only mean one thing to me but the trouble is that they have been redefined from traditional interpretations that say consciousness is the whole of the human experience.

Animals can perceive externally, e.g. a virus detecting a cell to attach to and inject it's RNA.

I think only animals that can differentiate a perception from a sensation can be classified as having a conscience. This however does include a variety of animals not only including humans, these animals are service animals such as lab apes, guide dogs and even dolphins that have been trained by the army to plant mines.

What I think makes these animals qualify for having a conscience is that they display behaviours related to intelligent disobedience and model/rival training techniques.
Aka, they are able to differentiate sensations(explicit) from perceptions(implicit).


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness? [Re: sudly]
    #23778418 - 10/27/16 09:07 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I guess you could invent your own language that only you speak


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23778433 - 10/27/16 09:10 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Consciousness is not the whole human experience.

Consciousness is a prerequisite to developing a conscience.


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OfflineGodlessPleb
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Re: How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness? [Re: sudly]
    #23779011 - 10/28/16 01:37 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I really like how you have pieced all this together. It has helped me understand the basics and exactly where some spiritual and personality theories are coming from. I agree with all the things you've said thus far. On the topic of animals, I think it's interesting to also think about the kinds of personalities that it's possible for different animals to have, depending on if they have a conscience.

Quote:

sudly said:
If anyone is following I've had an avid interest in a concept of biologically evolution that describes the human experience of sensations and perceptions.

The theory I am developing is based upon the Central Nervous System(CNS) and the Peripheral Nervous System(PNS) and it is used to describe how they interact in a Tripartite model. 

As I am writing it I realise that some aspects of biology and psychology are esoteric and not known to the majority.



How would I introduce someone to such a topic so that they don't become defensive?




--------------------
Well, I know like Giordano of old, your God is too small.
God is just a stepping stone to the universe within us all.



Edited by GodlessPleb (10/28/16 01:52 AM)


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OfflineSvetaketu
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Re: How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness? [Re: GodlessPleb]
    #23779035 - 10/28/16 01:58 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I'm with you so far, but how do you differentiate between animals that have conscience and can perceive, and animals that are just conditioned to respond a certain way to certain stimuli?

Can an intelligent animal (such as an ape or dolphin) that has not been conditioned in any way differentiate between perception and sensation?


--------------------
LAGM2020
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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness? [Re: GodlessPleb]
    #23779236 - 10/28/16 05:13 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Every human being on Earth is genetically related to every other organism on Earth so that's something.


@Svetaketu
Quote:

Intelligent disobedience occurs where a service animal trained to help a disabled person goes directly against the owner's instructions in an effort to make a better decision. This behavior is a part of the dog's training and is central to a service animal's success on the job.




Without training I don't think an ape or dolphin would develop a perceptive ability when compared to animals that were trained. Training an animal to display intelligent disobedience requires intensive reinforcements of model/rival training techniques, this is why it takes over a year of hard training to achieve such skills for service animals like guide dogs.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness? [Re: sudly]
    #23779350 - 10/28/16 06:27 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

what is training?


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23779401 - 10/28/16 07:00 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Training is the use of model/rival techniques to teach an animal to differentiate between model concepts and rival concepts.

Alex the parrot is a great example of the success model/rival techniques can achieve.
Quote:


Dr. Pepperberg developed her label-training procedure by modifying the Model-Rival system developed by Dr. Dietmar Todt. Todt’s teaching method used two people to play the part of parrot peers in the wild.  For example, a bird sees people handling a targeted item. One person trains the second (the model/rival) by presenting and asking questions about the item (e.g., "What color?”).The trainer rewards correct responses with the item, showing referential, functional label use, respectively, by providing 1:1 correspondence between label and item, and modeling label use as a means to get the item.




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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness? [Re: sudly]
    #23779484 - 10/28/16 08:05 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

so if they are discriminating between concepts, don't you think that they have to perceive the concepts prior to discrimination?

This establishes a progression through several dependent associative memory events:

(A)
1. experience a thing with another thing - enable association
2. re-experience the pair - establish association
3. experience part of the thing - trigger association (THIS IS PERCEPTION)
(B)
experience other things that are similar but different which associates all the like things yet associates more strongly each experience with the "group" that has the most similar features, after the group that occurs most frequently.
(C)
All you have done is repackage a few things in your more complex terms and hide the real events.

to get more accurate I am afraid you have to be reborn as a worm.

discover what associative memory really is before building castles in the sky out of smoke.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23780426 - 10/28/16 03:43 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

so if they are discriminating between concepts, don't you think that they have to perceive the concepts prior to discrimination?



Yes, they have to perceive two separate concepts(model/rival) then learn to differentiate between them over time.

Associative memory or 'trigger associations' are a synonym for synchronicity which is the same as perception.

Quote:

Perception: the neurophysiological processes, including memory, by which an organism becomes aware of and interprets external stimuli.





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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness? [Re: sudly] * 1
    #23780645 - 10/28/16 04:52 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
...
Associative memory or 'trigger associations' are a synonym for synchronicity which is the same as perception.
...




the conclusions you jump to are terrible, association is not the same as synchronicity


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23780666 - 10/28/16 05:00 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Synchronicity is an unconscious association of two events.

I'm surprised you don't see that.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness? [Re: sudly]
    #23781332 - 10/28/16 09:28 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

why unconscious,
and if so then it is an example of association not the equivalent of all associations.
That would be the same as me saying you are Donald Trump,
since you are both an example of human beings,
therefore you are Donald Trump.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23781437 - 10/28/16 10:11 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Because synchronicity is a process that occurs in the mind automatically.
It can be later introspected upon but a synchronistic idea itself originates automatically from associative memories.

A synonym doesn't have to mean the exact same thing but synchronicity is damn close to perception and associative memory.

Fine logic there RGV, I am Donald trump..


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness? [Re: sudly] * 1
    #23781881 - 10/29/16 06:08 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I am sure you can get stoner types to believe anything you pester them with.

Just by being dogged about your approach you can chase them with bad ideas and those garbage thoughts will eventually echo in their minds and your work will be done.

good luck with your efforts.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23781898 - 10/29/16 06:24 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

My intention is towards the scientific community and the purpose of this was simply to try and reduce how defensive some people become when this topic is brought up.

Thank you.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness? [Re: sudly] * 2
    #23782007 - 10/29/16 08:04 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

how do you plan on reaching the scientific community?

this is not one.

I predict think these ideas are not at all suitable for neurophysiology, neurology, embryology, anatomy, or any other discipline, and our forum is not a professional or scientific place in which to vett your theory.

BTW, scientists do not appreciate the abuse of scientific terms or any other inconsistencies, so that has to be removed from your thesis, but that includes about 90% of what you have put forth so far.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23783018 - 10/29/16 03:47 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Through the critique of university professors.

Of course this isn't a scientific community, it's a sandpit for voicing ideas and discussing them in order to further understand them.

These ideas are mostly suited to biology and psychology. I don't think embryology is involved.

Any good scientist follows the scientific method.
Quote:

The scientific method: a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.




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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Offlinebeforethedawn
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Re: How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness? [Re: sudly]
    #23783048 - 10/29/16 03:56 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Science is based upon the denial of experience.

If you affirm experience you are outside the domain of science.


--------------------
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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness? [Re: beforethedawn]
    #23783069 - 10/29/16 04:03 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I intend to falsify that sentience is not tangible so it is far within the limits of science.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness? [Re: sudly]
    #23783107 - 10/29/16 04:16 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

vocabulary, acchh!
please get some vocabulary both of you.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23783115 - 10/29/16 04:21 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)



--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisiblehTx
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Re: How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness? [Re: sudly]
    #23784189 - 10/29/16 11:46 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

You would need some sort of ego-loosening or mind-shattering event to really get your points across if they are indeed, points. Meaning empirical and objective.

If its nonsense it will remain comprehensiveble to only yourself, in which case, if I were in the same position, would revise my position.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


Edited by hTx (10/29/16 11:46 PM)


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: How would you introduce someone to the concept of a biologically evolved consciousness? [Re: hTx]
    #23784204 - 10/30/16 12:01 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

The points and context of this theory are aimed as solving questions related to the physical anatomy and mechanisms of human 'consciousness'.

It's an esoteric subject that involves physiology, biology and aspects of psychology which most people aren't interested in or knowledgeable in, hence why I intend to eventually get an accredited review/critique once I've gotten far enough.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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