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flyontoast
Farming food; farming time


Registered: 08/20/16
Posts: 258
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Reusable cropping containers suggestions? (small-farm scale)
#23767922 - 10/24/16 07:11 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I want to be able to produce over 50lbs (to start) of oysters and other varieties every week. I want to try to do this with REUSABLE cropping containers.*JUSTIFICATION AT THE END, feel free not to read the soap box* The reusable container idea was visited hear, but we can do better I hope since it lacked clear criteria. For example, I feel there's lot of room to be creative here, especially when considering criteria #4) Shape based on crop set-up. A container doesn't need to be round and fruited 360 degrees. Containers can be square (with rounded edges for easy cleaning) and pressed against each other and fruited on 1 or opposing side(s).
Considerations: 1) Wash-ability 2) Longevity 3) Fruiting body shape/uniformity (most important consideration imo) 4) Shape based on crop set-up 5) Purchasing cost 6) Container size (ie, what % of the crop would be lost if contam) 7) Surface area to volume ratio 8) Other considerations?
Most containers work no problem for any top-fruiting fungi, so let's make this hard by considering oysters that you want to fruit horizontally (I'm currently trialing Ferather's compost bed tek, but I am apprehensive about the marketability and packaging for bouquet-like oysters (see criteria 3)These guys somehow get their's to fruit as single caps, maybe strain? But if you're oyster cap is what you are marketing, they seem to be loosing a lot of weight to stems) Before anyone says "anything can be used", this is intended to be a scale-able farming system, with easily calculable inputs, outputs, and cropping times with modular components (like any mixed vegetable farm).
Possible containers: - 5 gallon buckets are an obvious choice Pros: stack-able, has lid, longevity Cons: expensive cost of entry. - Gardening pots. (This is what I currently use) Pros: cheap, abundant, decently sturdy, stack-able, many size options Cons: no lid! (ugly, very long stemmed oysters fruit out the top in the gap between the container stacked above it.) - PVC columns Pros: customizable size, space efficient Cons: (all length dependent) difficult to pack, hard to wash, certainly not food safe, difficult to check contam - Rubbermaids (storage bins) Pros: stack-able, variety of sizes, lids, durable Cons: very expensive - Bulk Distributors There are companies that specialize in containers. If you have a suggestion that's not at your local store, would love to see it.
*Soap box: I am an organic farmer on a successful farm, I understand efficiency and how to make an enterprise budget to know how much every kale leaf is worth based on the prep, inputs, crop space, mechanization, time to weed and harvest, etc. So I "know" plastic bags are amazing, and cheap, and reduce contam, and all the rest of the sales pitch. But even if you ensure the plastic bags are recycled properly, I still can't justify the amount resource extraction and energy/pollution in the manufacturing process. And I have enormous qualms with something being certified organic when it is grown inside a petroleum product. That completely misses the point of organic food (not from a health standpoint, as if the plastic is contam the mushrooms, but from the holistic, sustainable perspective that food has historically been abundantly produced sustainable with closed-loop systems and that we are living in a historically-anomalous period where we unsustainability use petroleum products to increase profit margins). And of course all containers are going to be a petroleum product, but the point is to reduce the amount of petroleum inputs, not to rip ourselves out of the historical period we live in. I'm stubborn enough to invent the farming system and build the equipment myself if that's what it takes to have mushrooms fit into our existing farm.*
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My trade list Looking for strong terrestrial fruiters for an outdoor beds experiment: Agaricus Bitorquis, Agaricus Augustus, Agaricus blazei/subrufescens, Stropharia Rugoso-annulata, Clitocybe Nuda (blewits), and any species or other genus that you think work outdoors. Also, any commercially viable Pleurotus, cold or hot strains. Thanks for the Q&A, trades, and all the posters & teachers that have come before us
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drake89
Mushroom Magnate



Registered: 06/26/11
Posts: 4,168
Loc: TN
Last seen: 4 years, 11 months
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Re: Reusable cropping containers suggestions? (small-farm scale) [Re: flyontoast]
#23768085 - 10/24/16 08:01 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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They are typically grown in 1L PP or PE bottles with disposable filter lids. Typical bottling farm has 50 or 100k bottles and a line to fill, inoculate, and empty bottles runs upwards of $100k.
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Quadman
Challenged


Registered: 04/23/16
Posts: 2,529
Loc: IL
Last seen: 22 days, 17 hours
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Re: Reusable cropping containers suggestions? (small-farm scale) [Re: drake89]
#23768391 - 10/24/16 09:38 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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All containers don't necessarily need to be plastic. Been thinking outsideinside the box. What about a heavy paper or cardboard box and dump sterilised/ pasteurized substrate in to fruit out of , probably expensive? Compost ready when done.
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kidreekie
Stranger

Registered: 06/12/16
Posts: 19
Last seen: 6 years, 5 months
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Re: Reusable cropping containers suggestions? (small-farm scale) [Re: Quadman]
#23768468 - 10/24/16 10:04 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Dairy farmers get cow minerals in black circular plastic bins here. Googled it, and it seems they come in red too; https://www.purinamills.com/cattle/products/wind-and-rain-mineral-tub
Maybe an add in a few papers, or whatever, and you are re-using somebodies waste product?
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Quadman
Challenged


Registered: 04/23/16
Posts: 2,529
Loc: IL
Last seen: 22 days, 17 hours
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Re: Reusable cropping containers suggestions? (small-farm scale) [Re: kidreekie]
#23768572 - 10/24/16 10:52 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Those tubs are big, if memory serves they come in 125 and 250# sizes. Smashed a pickup one day with a 250#.
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flyontoast
Farming food; farming time


Registered: 08/20/16
Posts: 258
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Re: Reusable cropping containers suggestions? (small-farm scale) [Re: kidreekie]
#23769341 - 10/25/16 09:24 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Quadman said: All containers don't necessarily need to be plastic. Been thinking outsideinside the box. What about a heavy paper or cardboard box and dump sterilised/ pasteurized substrate in to fruit out of , probably expensive? Compost ready when done.
Yeah, probably adds up fast, plus it undermines the principle of low-input containers. It still requires tons of energy and produces lots of waste/pollution to create paper products.
Quote:
kidreekie said: Dairy farmers get cow minerals in black circular plastic bins here. Maybe an add in a few papers, or whatever, and you are re-using somebodies waste product?
Tradd Cotter claims in his book that you should not use containers that have a diameter greater than 16inches. He says that the core overheats and does not get colonized (but I haven't tried it myself).
I am using straw right now, which, when purchased direct from a grain producer, is a waste product (if you're buying it packaged in plastic and shipped, you're just creating a new waste stream). We're also going to try small grain production next year (sorghum) and I'll use the stalks from that too. I have to check with our organic certifier if using organic coffee grounds from local shops is allowed (but they don't have very developed guidelines for mushrooms). And finally I'm in talks with a waste disposal company down the road to test some of their tree waste, but I'm in the Pacific North West, so 99% of their mix is conifers, but they do make a "no cedar" batch which I'm going to test.
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My trade list Looking for strong terrestrial fruiters for an outdoor beds experiment: Agaricus Bitorquis, Agaricus Augustus, Agaricus blazei/subrufescens, Stropharia Rugoso-annulata, Clitocybe Nuda (blewits), and any species or other genus that you think work outdoors. Also, any commercially viable Pleurotus, cold or hot strains. Thanks for the Q&A, trades, and all the posters & teachers that have come before us
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drake89
Mushroom Magnate



Registered: 06/26/11
Posts: 4,168
Loc: TN
Last seen: 4 years, 11 months
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Re: Reusable cropping containers suggestions? (small-farm scale) [Re: flyontoast]
#23769354 - 10/25/16 09:28 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm Afraid No One Can Help You If You're Afraid Of GENERATING Waste...Best Advice Here Would Be To Go Dumpster Diving At Your Local RECYCLING center.
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shroombasa
Sojourner



Registered: 05/02/15
Posts: 364
Loc: 'Merka
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
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Re: Reusable cropping containers suggestions? (small-farm scale) [Re: flyontoast]
#23769760 - 10/25/16 11:50 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think the issue in general is that the cropping container represents such a small cost compared to your labor, that if you try something reusable, you're going to have to set unrealistic prices to compensate for your time cleaning buckets/pots/etc.
Don't know your level of experience, but even 50# is going to generate a few hundred pounds of waste per week. I've read that spent mushroom substrate, even when composted, contains relatively high concentrations of salts that make it a less desirable soil amendment. I would personally worry more about what you're going to do with your spent logs more than the cropping container.
-------------------- Trade list
Peace and long life.
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flyontoast
Farming food; farming time


Registered: 08/20/16
Posts: 258
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Re: Reusable cropping containers suggestions? (small-farm scale) [Re: shroombasa]
#23770238 - 10/25/16 02:30 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
drake89 said: I'm Afraid No One Can Help You If You're Afraid Of GENERATING Waste...Best Advice Here Would Be To Go Dumpster Diving At Your Local RECYCLING center.
Hum, not sure what triggered this moderately hostile response. I never said I am "afraid" of generating waste, that's a classic straw-man. As I originally stated: "the point is to reduce the amount of petroleum inputs, not to rip ourselves out of the historical period we live in." I think people are forgetting that agriculture is historically the largest contributor to greenhouse emissions. I really don't see mushroom growers in 30 years having the luxury of using disposable plastic. Just like organic farmers have been innovating ways to reduce the carbon footprint of farming (like through producing phosphorus on site rather than through mining, mixed cropping, cover cropping, ect.) mushroom growers are going to have to adapt sooner or later. I was asking for ideas, not an argument about whether being ecologically responsible is the right thing to dot. This post isn't a critique of the status quo, it's a discussion of another way of doing things, which is obviously the main purpose of this forum.
Quote:
shroombasa said: I think the issue in general is that the cropping container represents such a small cost compared to your labor, that if you try something reusable, you're going to have to set unrealistic prices to compensate for your time cleaning buckets/pots/etc.
Don't know your level of experience, but even 50# is going to generate a few hundred pounds of waste per week. I've read that spent mushroom substrate, even when composted, contains relatively high concentrations of salts that make it a less desirable soil amendment. I would personally worry more about what you're going to do with your spent logs more than the cropping container.
I completely understand. On our farm, we have hundred of totes that we use to harvest vegetables, transport to market, and make restaurant deliveries. Laws dictate that we must wash all these containers and disinfect them. We are able to do this without a loss. This is where the surface to volume ratio becomes key. A 67L tote that hold 10 lbs of salad mix (about $150) only takes 20 seconds to clean (spray, scrub, disinfect). So, I'm willing to try to do it when it comes to mush cropping containers. A lot of things I've read about oyster substrate is that it's great to feed to animals and compost worms. I've feeding mine to the chickens thus far and they love it. Am also starting a worm farm to make potting soil from the spent substrates. I'll look more closely into the salt content. I figured I'd just add it to our windrow of compost, but not if it's going to affect our poor veges!
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My trade list Looking for strong terrestrial fruiters for an outdoor beds experiment: Agaricus Bitorquis, Agaricus Augustus, Agaricus blazei/subrufescens, Stropharia Rugoso-annulata, Clitocybe Nuda (blewits), and any species or other genus that you think work outdoors. Also, any commercially viable Pleurotus, cold or hot strains. Thanks for the Q&A, trades, and all the posters & teachers that have come before us
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Marty Mycfly
Time Traveler


Registered: 12/16/13
Posts: 976
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Re: Reusable cropping containers suggestions? (small-farm scale) [Re: flyontoast]
#23770420 - 10/25/16 03:30 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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How do you get your chickens to eat your sub? I can't get them to eat anything mushroom oriented, not even my discarded mushrooms, like they won't touch them.
By the way, just from reading around it seems the most promising cropping container that isn't developed yet would be cellophane, Stamets wrote about it in GGMM saying that development in that would be a game changer, the mushroom mycelium would eventually eat it's own container. The problem is probably getting it heat tolerant, but makes me wonder how cellophane would do with pasteurized sub loaded into them when cooled?
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flyontoast
Farming food; farming time


Registered: 08/20/16
Posts: 258
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Re: Reusable cropping containers suggestions? (small-farm scale) [Re: Marty Mycfly]
#23770653 - 10/25/16 04:42 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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How spoiled are your chickens lol? We've got barred rocks, caramel queens, and ameraucanas, about 115 total. Our chickens are free range and eat all our kitchen scraps and market rejects (veges), so they are certainly use to jumping at whatever we throw their way. Right now my subs are all straw mixed with hay. I make sure the sub is at least split in half (step on it or breaks on landing), and at first they were really confused. But once they found the grain inside, they just went at it. They don't eat each and every piece of hay/straw, they really pick through it, but they do eat over 80% of it. I haven't tossed any wood substrates their way because I have yet sourced cheap wood that would pass organic certification, but I don't think they'd eat the wood obviously. They even eat any foraged mushrooms that I find too buggy or old for the frying pan lol.
Cellophane is a super interesting idea.
ps, Back to the Future was my favorite movie growing up.
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My trade list Looking for strong terrestrial fruiters for an outdoor beds experiment: Agaricus Bitorquis, Agaricus Augustus, Agaricus blazei/subrufescens, Stropharia Rugoso-annulata, Clitocybe Nuda (blewits), and any species or other genus that you think work outdoors. Also, any commercially viable Pleurotus, cold or hot strains. Thanks for the Q&A, trades, and all the posters & teachers that have come before us
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azur
God of Fuck



Registered: 04/21/12
Posts: 28,103
Loc: Daid
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Re: Reusable cropping containers suggestions? (small-farm scale) [Re: flyontoast]
#23770786 - 10/25/16 05:30 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
flyontoast said:
Quote:
Quadman said: All containers don't necessarily need to be plastic. Been thinking outsideinside the box. What about a heavy paper or cardboard box and dump sterilised/ pasteurized substrate in to fruit out of , probably expensive? Compost ready when done.
Yeah, probably adds up fast, plus it undermines the principle of low-input containers. It still requires tons of energy and produces lots of waste/pollution to create paper products.
Quote:
kidreekie said: Dairy farmers get cow minerals in black circular plastic bins here. Maybe an add in a few papers, or whatever, and you are re-using somebodies waste product?
Tradd Cotter claims in his book that you should not use containers that have a diameter greater than 16inches. He says that the core overheats and does not get colonized (but I haven't tried it myself).
I am using straw right now, which, when purchased direct from a grain producer, is a waste product (if you're buying it packaged in plastic and shipped, you're just creating a new waste stream). We're also going to try small grain production next year (sorghum) and I'll use the stalks from that too. I have to check with our organic certifier if using organic coffee grounds from local shops is allowed (but they don't have very developed guidelines for mushrooms). And finally I'm in talks with a waste disposal company down the road to test some of their tree waste, but I'm in the Pacific North West, so 99% of their mix is conifers, but they do make a "no cedar" batch which I'm going to test.
Not relevant, but tradd cotter is a piece of shit good ol boy. He used his good ol boy connections to be the only place to get certified to legally forage mushrooms in sc, at a cost of $500
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Marty Mycfly
Time Traveler


Registered: 12/16/13
Posts: 976
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Re: Reusable cropping containers suggestions? (small-farm scale) [Re: azur]
#23770852 - 10/25/16 05:53 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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My chickens may be spoiled little bitches! But they are free range and do not eat any mushroom scraps, it is bizarre. They do eat my grains that I don't use or throw out.
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poponon
Quaaaack!!!



Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 467
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
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Re: Reusable cropping containers suggestions? (small-farm scale) [Re: flyontoast]
#23771164 - 10/25/16 07:26 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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was flipping through 'Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms' by Stamets earlier today and noticed a brief mention and picture of a Russian reusable container system... They looked like possibly custom molded plastic containers, hung by rope from the ceiling. multiple containers per rope. i'll have to check later to find the exact page. would be interesting to experiment with a similar system
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