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OfflineImperius
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Limewater disposal
    #23769076 - 10/25/16 06:26 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

In case anyone was wondering what to do with the caustic wastewater after hydrated lime pasteurization:

http://www.ecotonethreads.com/?page_id=468

Will test soon and report how much citric acid it took to get it down to pH 7 for my straw load. I suspect very little will be needed, given the insanely low usage of lime due to limited solubility.
An entire 55 gal/210L bucket would need 363g lime to achieve max saturation, so 617g citric acid would be required. A 500g packet of CA costs around 1-3€.

And we use far, FAR less water for a load, not to mention a lot of it gets contained within the straw. It seems like an economical and easy solution to a big problem.


Edited by Imperius (10/25/16 06:29 AM)


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Invisibleflyontoast
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Re: Limewater disposal [Re: Imperius]
    #23771284 - 10/25/16 08:01 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Looking forward to the results.
What is your water, to substrate, to lime ratio?

You're adding citric acid based on the amount of lime-water left in the bucket after saturation, right? In that case, I would disagree with that article that 1.1 gallon of vinegar for each cup of lime since is require if, like you said, you only had a few litres left in the bucket. If there was still 1/5 of the original 5 gallons lime-water (in their example) then 750ml (roughly 3 cups) of vinegar would be needed, right? Still seems like a lot. But if you only had like 0.25 gallons (1 litre) left, that'd be only about 180ml, less than a cup, of vinegar, which is like $0.12 of vinegar.
Am I wrong on this, cause I was trying to figure this out too the last time I dumped my water.
The weight vs volume of lime is certainly throwing off these calculations.


--------------------
:mushroom: My trade list :mushroom:
Looking for strong terrestrial fruiters for an outdoor beds experiment:
Agaricus Bitorquis, Agaricus Augustus, Agaricus blazei/subrufescens, Stropharia Rugoso-annulata, Clitocybe Nuda (blewits), and any species or other genus that you think work outdoors.
Also, any commercially viable Pleurotus, cold or hot strains.
Thanks for the Q&A, trades, and all the posters & teachers that have come before us  :skol:


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OfflineQuadman
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Re: Limewater disposal [Re: flyontoast]
    #23771520 - 10/25/16 09:13 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I think the proper way to use lime is not to have leftovers. If you do you can store and reuse the next time.


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OfflineImperius
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Re: Limewater disposal [Re: flyontoast]
    #23772185 - 10/26/16 02:39 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

flyontoast said:
You're adding citric acid based on the amount of lime-water left in the bucket after saturation, right? In that case, I would disagree with that article that 1.1 gallon of vinegar for each cup of lime since is require if, like you said, you only had a few litres left in the bucket. If there was still 1/5 of the original 5 gallons lime-water (in their example) then 750ml (roughly 3 cups) of vinegar would be needed, right? Still seems like a lot. But if you only had like 0.25 gallons (1 litre) left, that'd be only about 180ml, less than a cup, of vinegar, which is like $0.12 of vinegar.
Am I wrong on this, cause I was trying to figure this out too the last time I dumped my water.
The weight vs volume of lime is certainly throwing off these calculations.




You're essentially trying to figure out how much lime is left in the water that is left. The volume of water isn't a factor of course, just the amount of lime in it. The article (if the chemistry is correct that is) is completely right, they aren't trying to neutralize based on lime water volume, but the lime within.
The cited 1.1 gallons of vinegar for 1 cup of lime will neutralize a shitton of limewater - have no idea how much 1 cup of lime would weigh, probably something like 150 grams, so thats something like a hundred liters of residual water neutralized with 1.1 gallons vinegar.

It may be tricky to achieve the low amounts of residual water you mention, in a 55gal bucket batch, because straw is so damn voluminous you usually need to add a lot more water than you actually need to hydrate it, to get the damn thing fully submerged.
But if you indeed are left with only 1 gallon (3.7 liters), that means you are left with 6.4 grams of lime, probably about a tablespoon, which indeed comes out at under a cup of vinegar, according to the article.
If only 0.25 gallon (1L) is left, you only have to deal with 1.7grams of lime, which is about 2.90grams of citric acid or a spit of vinegar to neutralize.

Quote:

I think the proper way to use lime is not to have leftovers. If you do you can store and reuse the next time.




I tried using 15 kg straw and 35 liters of limewater (30:70% ratio, around "field capacity")  to achieve zero waste. I did this by drilling holes at the bottom, collecting the drainage and running it over the top again*. I ended up with huge spots of unhydrated, unpasteurized straw (the water tends to find paths of least resistance and creates dry gaps). You definetly need to use more than bare minimum to saturate the sucker, and need a way to mix the whole thing up, and even then you risk failure IMO. There is definetly a way of optimizing the process and minimize waste though, I'm assuming you are reffering to the Aloha method?

* I did it manually, it was such a pain haha.

As for reusing, depends when your next batch is. The water starts to REEK quite soon, I very much doubt you're pasteurizing anything by then, more like infecting :P.


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Offlinetump
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Re: Limewater disposal [Re: Imperius]
    #23772258 - 10/26/16 03:48 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

The water ph drops after its used so just dump out in your neighbor's yard. Lol jk but really i was told to keep adding lime and reuseing the water up to six month's when i asked on here. But as long as you have space to dump it outside you might as well do it.


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OfflineImperius
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Re: Limewater disposal [Re: tump]
    #23772305 - 10/26/16 04:28 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

You might as well not. It's extremely toxic and if used, it needs to be handled and disposed properly.

You wouldn't wanna drink it or live in a trash heap, neither would any other inhabitants of the earth.


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Offlinetump
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Re: Limewater disposal [Re: Imperius]
    #23772334 - 10/26/16 04:59 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Yes its toxic to drink. But don't forget that pure lime is add to soil six week before planting season in larges parts of the whole. It really will kill plants that its dumped on but isn't some deathly toxic that nature has no idea what to do will. It will all even out over time.


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OfflineImperius
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Re: Limewater disposal [Re: tump]
    #23772388 - 10/26/16 05:50 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Forget about plants. It kills animals.


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OfflineFerather
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Re: Limewater disposal [Re: Imperius]
    #23772425 - 10/26/16 06:40 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I don't like chemicals other than fertilizers. Mess, toxins, waste. No thanks.


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Offlinetump
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Re: Limewater disposal [Re: Ferather]
    #23772451 - 10/26/16 07:08 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Come on guys we are urban farmer. You know your surrounded by chemicals every day. If you don't pollute it into the soil your not really ready for lime use then


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OfflineFerather
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Re: Limewater disposal [Re: tump]
    #23772473 - 10/26/16 07:24 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Wow! You dump waste into the ground and walk away happy with that?


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Growing mushrooms, general guide and information (Ferather's Journal), https://ibb.co/rG3rML2

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Offlinedrake89
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Re: Limewater disposal [Re: Ferather]
    #23772489 - 10/26/16 07:32 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

tump said:
Yes its toxic to drink. But don't forget that pure lime is add to soil six week before planting season in larges parts of the whole. It really will kill plants that its dumped on but isn't some deathly toxic that nature has no idea what to do will. It will all even out over time.



Quote:

Ferather said:
I don't like chemicals other than fertilizers. Mess, toxins, waste. No thanks.



Warning hippy alert!

The hydrated lime I buy is for cement AND approved to treat drinking water.

It is commonly used for canning and to nixtamilize corn to make tortillas. Ever ate a taco?  It was made with hydrated lime!

The pH goes back to near neutral after a day so just use ph papers if you're set on adjusting.


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OfflineFerather
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Re: Limewater disposal [Re: drake89]
    #23772499 - 10/26/16 07:40 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks drake. Got worried there, the idea of "dumping" made me edgy.


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https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27857366#27857366

DTS DCH Driver for Realtek [DTS:X] - Unlocked and reprogrammed.


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OfflineQuadman
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Re: Limewater disposal [Re: Ferather]
    #23772734 - 10/26/16 09:24 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

A rock/limestone lane or road would be a good place for disposal. Just dribble down the middle. With all the sulfur from coal here you could probably spread anywhere.


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OfflineGr0wer
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Re: Limewater disposal [Re: Quadman]
    #23775001 - 10/26/16 10:18 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

You can also dilute it so its not so concentrated. The new water with bring the PH closer to normal. I wouldn't go wasting money on acids, and you don't want to start a reaction. Find a nice rock garden or somewhere that no plants are and dump it.


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OfflineGreg
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Re: Limewater disposal [Re: Gr0wer]
    #23775190 - 10/26/16 11:20 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Seriously though. Google "pickling lime".
They used to use it to make pickled vegetables.


Edited by Greg (10/26/16 11:26 PM)


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OfflineImperius
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Re: Limewater disposal [Re: Greg] * 1
    #23811938 - 11/08/16 07:56 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Despite peoples opinion that carelessly dumping around alkaline water is OK, which is an opinion I'm sure would change, if you lived nearby industrial plants (or a mass of people big enough for you to notice the ill effects, e.g. a number of mushroom growers) that annihilated your immediate surroundings (ESPECIALLY fishies, who are quite sensitive to it) with such activities, I conducted the neutralizing test.

-An average of 2g lime per 1000ml water was used for treating the straw (max solubility @ 20 celcius= 1.73g)
-A little over 60 liters of water was retained.

-The pH measured imediatly after was 9-10 (pH strips suck for absolute accuracy)
-Time (third day after the fact) does not seem to affect the pH, it remained 9-10.
-Diluting by 50% reduced the pH to about 8.5-9.
-By the 1.73g citric acid for each gram of lime used calculation, a 20 liter bucket shouldve taken about 70grams of citric acid to neutralize (~40g dissolved lime).
In a smaller sample using that ratio, the pH shot down to 4.5. The 20 liter (5 gallon) bucket ended up only taking about 5 grams (a teaspoon) to neutralize to pH 7. The straw seems to acidify the water significantly, probably downs the pH from around 12-13 to 9-10, making our job significantly easier than the article suggested. As well as rendering our waste water quite a bit less toxic than the one from the article, of course.

So to neutralize 20 liters of water, it cost me about 2.5 cents (€), or 7.5 cents (€) for the entire load. And what im left with, if im not mistaken (not formally a chemist), is water with a bunch of calcium citrate, which is harmless.


Edited by Imperius (11/08/16 08:17 AM)


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Offlinedrake89
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Re: Limewater disposal [Re: Imperius]
    #23812226 - 11/08/16 09:55 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

whatever helps you sleep at night...


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Invisibledankington
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Re: Limewater disposal [Re: drake89] * 1
    #23813296 - 11/08/16 04:26 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

drake89 said:
whatever helps you sleep at night...




peace of mind = priceless.
I feel a lot of us have little rituals that don't help much, but help our sanity somehow :wink:

Also, it's still natural. Shit. It's not like we're talking about dumping uranium or asbestos or anything. You can re-dissolve solids that didn't dissolve and keep using your lime. I've seen amazing limestone formations, and you're not going to tell me it's killing all the cute animals in those caves. It's all cycles and as long as we respect them enough, they don't screw us.


Edited by dankington (11/08/16 04:30 PM)


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Invisibleflyontoast
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Re: Limewater disposal [Re: Imperius]
    #23813333 - 11/08/16 04:44 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks for following through on this. I appreciate you taking responsibility for your waste/byproducts and will take this into consideration in my own management practices.
:thumbup:


--------------------
:mushroom: My trade list :mushroom:
Looking for strong terrestrial fruiters for an outdoor beds experiment:
Agaricus Bitorquis, Agaricus Augustus, Agaricus blazei/subrufescens, Stropharia Rugoso-annulata, Clitocybe Nuda (blewits), and any species or other genus that you think work outdoors.
Also, any commercially viable Pleurotus, cold or hot strains.
Thanks for the Q&A, trades, and all the posters & teachers that have come before us  :skol:


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OfflineImperius
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Re: Limewater disposal [Re: dankington]
    #23814959 - 11/09/16 02:12 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dankington said:
Quote:

drake89 said:
whatever helps you sleep at night...




peace of mind = priceless.
I feel a lot of us have little rituals that don't help much, but help our sanity somehow :wink:

Also, it's still natural. Shit. It's not like we're talking about dumping uranium or asbestos or anything. You can re-dissolve solids that didn't dissolve and keep using your lime. I've seen amazing limestone formations, and you're not going to tell me it's killing all the cute animals in those caves. It's all cycles and as long as we respect them enough, they don't screw us.




What you are referring to is limestone (calcium carbonate) in solid form, in "natural conditions" that don't artificially dissolve a great deal of it for production uses. Moreover, organisms that DID evolve around limestone formations, are ADAPTED to living in such conditions. Just like you might find sulphur loving organisms elsewhere. Swap the living conditions, and both organisms are fucked.

Meanwhile, what we use is calcium hydroxide, a vastly different beast. If I dump out my trash and it ends up in the local waterway (don't even start with the whole generalized "dump on rocks" crap, that is precisely the reason why you can find shittons of  (disease inducing) fecal bacteria in practically every waterway, because herpy derpy farmers think manuer doesn't eventually leech out of the soil into the water and spread it profusely), the organisms present are NOT adapted to this kind of environment. The rock method may apply in certain environments, not all.

Yes, its cycles, no, we (as humans) aren't the only players in it. It might not screw us directly, but that doesn't exclude us from not considering others.

But hey, whatever ritual of self convincing of nonharm you need to perform to achieve piece of mind, by all means, do it. The rest of us can spare a second and a few cents (as proven above) to at least minimize our footprint. You'd think the mushroom scene would have a hefty amount of solution seekers compared to excuse makers, given it's "waste to food" and mycoremeditation aspects. Heck, I even brought a solution to your door step, and yet you moan.

All said and done, if you aren't interested in being less of a cancer to your surroundings, by all means get the fuck out of discussions to which you cannot contribute productively.


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