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D4M2T
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some stuff about the Unconscious
#23769007 - 10/25/16 05:20 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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There is a reason why psychology is a liberal art, and not just a technical science. mainstream psychology tends to only teach the technical knowledge, which is largely cerebral, not unconscious. If the conscious can be described as a machine, then the unconscious would be described as a pool of water. a cache of memories and associations which drift throughout the parts of the brain with even the slightest of influence from another memory, and each part of the brain influences the memories inside of it differently. This is why medications like Antidepressants are so overprescribed, because the symptoms can be imitated by a practically infinite number of arrangements of subconscious memories and influences from the different portions of the brain in which these memories lie.
now, memory patterns are not to be found in one single portion of the brain (there can only be a probability!), but their position in the brain changes as your memory does! (you can already see this start to become a little chaotic) and with each different portion of the brain a memory goes to, comes a different influence upon that pattern (different portions of the brain have different influences). Each memory pattern, with respect to other patterns and their positions in the brain, construct our conscious behaviors and beliefs. As time goes on and our memory changes, so do the behaviors and beliefs. (note: the only way to change behaviors or beliefs without Time is to directly access the unconscious and tamper with these influences. this can be achieved through a controlled psychological trance.)
Brain mapping can only provide a template of where activity is likely to occur for a given person, or species-wide general probability. Not all people will "file" memories of the five different senses in the same five locations nor in only five places nor especially will they file abstract thoughts, conclusions, or skills in identical locations. The complex interweaving and interconnected links to memories are changed over time and moved from one side of the brain to the other based upon a memory pattern going from being new to being old.
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redgreenvines
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: D4M2T]
#23769090 - 10/25/16 06:38 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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lots of wrong interpretation of experimental evidence.
that the memory trace or engram is not in one position, does not mean that it is moving around, it means instead that the memory trace is a pattern of brain activity distributed in a precise pattern highly coincident with the original brain excitation pattern of the original experience.
the brain is not at all a file system, it is an impression conditioned experience context that can exercise physical activity/expressions.
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D4M2T
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: redgreenvines]
#23769196 - 10/25/16 07:59 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: lots of wrong interpretation of experimental evidence.
that the memory trace or engram is not in one position, does not mean that it is moving around, it means instead that the memory trace is a pattern of brain activity distributed in a precise pattern highly coincident with the original brain excitation pattern of the original experience.
the brain is not at all a file system, it is an impression conditioned experience context that can exercise physical activity/expressions.
yea i mean the memories r probly not "drifting" around aimlessly but the main idea is that the Unconscious impressions/memories(same thing) are connected to other memories and are able to be found throughout the portions of the subconscious(despite being native to another) and also each portion of the subconscious exerts an influence in this pool of connected impressions/memories.
Edited by D4M2T (10/25/16 08:07 AM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: D4M2T]
#23769265 - 10/25/16 08:46 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
D4M2T said: ... yea i mean the memories r probly not "drifting" around aimlessly but the main idea is that the Unconscious impressions/memories(same thing) are connected to other memories and are able to be found throughout the portions of the subconscious(despite being native to another) and also each portion of the subconscious exerts an influence in this pool of connected impressions/memories.
I will rephrase using your sentence structure and words that I can agree with:
memories are connected to other memories and are found throughout the cerebral cortex and also each location of the cerebral cortex operates like a pixel in memories as well as during original sensory experiencing.
I am also comfortable calling memories thought objects, or mental objects, or mental artifacts. I find it is consistent with all experimental evidence when you consider that sensation is a mental artifact.
I purposely left out the term "subconscious" which is not a resolved thing in neurological science, while it remains a definition albatross around the neck of modern thinking in many fields and it is an impediment to understanding. The term memory (engram - cortical activation pattern that correlates with specific experience), and the term associative thought (how experiences are linked in mind) suffice well to create a landscape of understanding that correlates with discoveries neurological science.
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sudly
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: D4M2T]
#23770291 - 10/25/16 02:47 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Brain mapping can only provide a template of where activity is likely to occur for a given person, or species-wide general probability. Not all people will "file" memories of the five different senses in the same five locations nor in only five places nor especially will they file abstract thoughts, conclusions, or skills in identical locations. The complex interweaving and interconnected links to memories are changed over time and moved from one side of the brain to the other based upon a memory pattern going from being new to being old.
This isn't true.
Brain mapping can provide an accurate template of where activity is occurring within all people. The 5 different senses can be described as located in 3 locations.
These locations are the fore brain(neocortex), the heart(limbic system) and the gut(sympathetic nervous system).
1. The fore brain and neocortex govern to function reason and rationality. 2. The limbic system functions to govern heart rate and blood pressure. 3. The autonomic nervous system functions to govern instinct and the fight or flight response.
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D4M2T
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: sudly]
#23770301 - 10/25/16 02:51 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said:
Quote:
Brain mapping can only provide a template of where activity is likely to occur for a given person, or species-wide general probability. Not all people will "file" memories of the five different senses in the same five locations nor in only five places nor especially will they file abstract thoughts, conclusions, or skills in identical locations. The complex interweaving and interconnected links to memories are changed over time and moved from one side of the brain to the other based upon a memory pattern going from being new to being old.
This isn't true.
Brain mapping can provide an accurate template of where activity is occurring within all people. The 5 different senses can be described as located in 3 locations.
These locations are the fore brain(neocortex), the heart(limbic system) and the gut(sympathetic nervous system).
1. The fore brain and neocortex govern to function reason and rationality. 2. The limbic system functions to govern heart rate and blood pressure. 3. The autonomic nervous system functions to govern instinct and the fight or flight response.

i think u misread "can" as "cant" no probs tho
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redgreenvines
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: sudly]
#23770308 - 10/25/16 02:54 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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brain mapping can help resolve the general boundaries of regions that contain sensory points for specific parts of the body, and these are extremely similar for all persons, but it cannot make precise maps of the actual engrams of experiences or memories of any people.
it is too primitive a technology so far, and the instruments used are too blunt.
the resolution required is cellular: at the moment we can detect activity is as few as 100,000 brain cells adjacent to another 100,000 brain cells.
we need a way to get to 1x1 grid resolution.
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sudly
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: D4M2T]
#23770318 - 10/25/16 02:57 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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This template can file abstract thoughts, conclusions, or skills over the 3 locations.
Quote:
The complex interweaving and interconnected links to memories are changed over time and moved from one side of the brain to the other based upon a memory pattern going from being new to being old.
This occurs within the brain not the body and a brain map defines the 3 regions in which these different activities occur.
1. In the neocortex are perceptual memories. 2. In the limbic system is where sensational impulses are processed into feelings. 3. The autonomic nervous system is responsible for governing chemical impulse sensations from the gut such as hunger, sexual desire and the fight or flight response.
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redgreenvines
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: sudly]
#23770391 - 10/25/16 03:22 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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these are very general functional co-allocations, sudly. if this theory were more useful maybe someone would use it.
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Middleman

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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: redgreenvines]
#23770503 - 10/25/16 03:57 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Don't forget about the lobster brain. :lobster:
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redgreenvines
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: Middleman]
#23770575 - 10/25/16 04:21 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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we could start with lobster brain, it's much simpler but also capable of associative memory. try to understand that first.
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The Blind Ass
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: redgreenvines]
#23770614 - 10/25/16 04:30 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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sudly
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: redgreenvines]
#23771144 - 10/25/16 07:20 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: these are very general functional co-allocations, sudly. if this theory were more useful maybe someone would use it.
The funny thing is this theory is based on Freudian theory so if you do understand it, it is helpful.

I would call the 'lobster/lizard' brain the reticular formation that governs sensory signals such as the fight or flight response(ANS).
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Edited by sudly (10/25/16 07:27 PM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: sudly] 1
#23771273 - 10/25/16 07:59 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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- freud knew nothing about neurophysiology
- a lizard's brain has much more happening that the structure we call lizard brain (the limbic system) which is above and forward of the reticular formation, eg vision, hearing, smell, taste, coordination, recollection...
- the reticular formation in the brain stem is involved in filtering of somatic sensation signals so that we can rest and fall asleep, it is the gateway to the thalamus and thence the cortex for somato-sensory activity
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sudly
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: redgreenvines]
#23771330 - 10/25/16 08:16 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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This isn't just about Freud, it's a conglomeration of 4 different neurological theories.
The 'lizard brain' governs all the functions a reptile needs to survive such as digestion and the fight or flight response to determine friend from prey or predator. E.g. the senses required for survival.
I thinks it's more so the somatic nervous system that filters sensation signals from the autonomic nervous system which are originally governed by the reticular formation.
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redgreenvines
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: sudly]
#23771352 - 10/25/16 08:22 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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the autonomic system is completely distict from the somatosensory system - check out the parasympathetic vagus nerve and sympathetic splanchnic nerve. you are working a bogus set of quasi scientific theories. I am disappointed
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sudly
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: redgreenvines]
#23771558 - 10/25/16 09:29 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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They may have distinct functions but they're all interconnected by the nervous system, spine cord and brain.
   
I'm disappointed you don't see a pattern between the human 'soul', the tripartite soul, the Triune brain and Freudian theory.
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redgreenvines
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: sudly]
#23771607 - 10/25/16 09:56 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I see a connection but it is not something I would repeat to anybody I cared about.
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sudly
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: redgreenvines]
#23771673 - 10/25/16 10:17 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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It's aimed at the scientific community.
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redgreenvines
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: sudly]
#23771722 - 10/25/16 10:30 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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like a photon torpedo?
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sudly
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: redgreenvines]
#23771794 - 10/25/16 10:53 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I guess so.
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D4M2T
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: sudly]
#23773866 - 10/26/16 04:32 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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the only reason scientists haven't already figured out the brain is because the subconscious is highly unlike the straight-forward technicalities of the conscious. Processes which are governed by one portion of the unconscious may be processed by another completely different portion. a single portion is even able to take on the properties of another completely seperate portion. This can even be put into probabilities. This IS our memories/impressions influencing our brains functioning which in turn influences our memories/impressions!
This is why psychology is classed as a Liberal Art. to fully understand the brain is to understand the underlying influences of our memories, and this is largely intuitive and not logical.
Edited by D4M2T (10/26/16 04:38 PM)
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sudly
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: D4M2T]
#23773896 - 10/26/16 04:42 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Different portions of the brain govern different functions but they can interact and interconnect that leads to several portions of the brain actively functioning at once.
That said, as far as I see it the whole human experience can be broken down into sensations and perceptions.
Anything intuitive is a sensation, anything logical is a perception.
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D4M2T
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: sudly]
#23773920 - 10/26/16 04:47 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: Different portions of the brain govern different functions but they can interact and interconnect that leads to several portions of the brain actively functioning at once.
these portions of the subconscious don't just interconnect, otherwise we would have mapped it out already. But one portion may take on the properties of another completley seperate portion (if for a brief moment). thats why its difficult.
Edited by D4M2T (10/26/16 04:49 PM)
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sudly
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: D4M2T]
#23773949 - 10/26/16 04:56 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Not if the brain is divided into three separate regions that have distinct physiological functions.
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redgreenvines
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: D4M2T]
#23773953 - 10/26/16 04:57 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: Different portions of the brain govern different functions but they can interact and interconnect that leads to several portions of the brain actively functioning at once.
That said, as far as I see it the whole human experience can be broken down into sensations and perceptions.
Anything intuitive is a sensation, anything logical is a perception.
you need to define intuition, I think intuition is the same as logic (except without any specific words that would be qualified as terms of logic), and that will screw up your 3rd line
but a big yes to the second line the whole human experience can be broken down into sensations and perceptions
Quote:
D4M2T said:
Quote:
sudly said: Different portions of the brain govern different functions but they can interact and interconnect that leads to several portions of the brain actively functioning at once.
these portions of the subconscious don't just interconnect, otherwise we would have mapped it out already. But one portion may take on the properties of another completley seperate portion (if for a brief moment). thats why its difficult.
the subconscious is not a mapped thing, in fact it is purely a conjectural bag of what people otherwise call memory and personality, but it is so vague and badly used as a term that it taints anyone that uses it. Also many of sudly's attributions for parts of the brain are wrong except for the homunculus.
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sudly
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: redgreenvines]
#23773983 - 10/26/16 05:04 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think intuition is logic based on sensations while logic in the normal sense is based on perception and the ability to conceptualise.
My basis of belief is that the Central Nervous System(CNS) and Peripheral Nervous System(PNS) make up the human 'soul' in what I think can be modeled as a Tripartite Soul.

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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: sudly]
#23773986 - 10/26/16 05:05 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: Not if the brain is divided into three separate regions that have distinct physiological functions.

of course, when i say "one portion may take on the properties of another completely seperate" this doesn't mean that for a brief moment they cease all activity and begin acting like another portion. it just means that when handling a specific memory-pattern or neural signal, they may take on a completely different nature for that specific signal.
Edited by D4M2T (10/26/16 05:06 PM)
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D4M2T
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: redgreenvines]
#23774021 - 10/26/16 05:17 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
the subconscious is not a mapped thing, in fact it is purely a conjectural bag of what people otherwise call memory and personality, but it is so vague and badly used as a term that it taints anyone that uses it. Also many of sudly's attributions for parts of the brain are wrong except for the homunculus.
it can be mapped, but only from individual to individual. we consider the individuals past impressions and memory patterns, and from their we understand what causes one portion of the brain to handle a memory-pattern in an unnatural or improper manner.
of course, this " map of impressions " may be empirically complex. now you can see why it is more of a "pool of water" than a map.
Edited by D4M2T (10/26/16 05:25 PM)
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sudly
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: D4M2T]
#23774043 - 10/26/16 05:27 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
D4M2T said:
Quote:
sudly said: Not if the brain is divided into three separate regions that have distinct physiological functions.

of course, when i say "one portion may take on the properties of another completely seperate" this doesn't mean that for a brief moment they cease all activity and begin acting like another portion. it just means that when handling a specific memory-pattern or neural signal, they may take on a completely different nature for that specific signal.
The frontal cortex isn't going to suddenly start governing digestion so I don't know how you mean when you say a portion of the brain can take up the role of another. And of course activity in the brain won't cease because the human brain is electrically active in a 24 hour cycle, if it wasn't you'd be dead.
Memories are different but that doesn't mean different regions of the brain are switching roles and functions.
If anything, the neocortex and it's governance over perceptions and reason allow us to experience the placebo effect which has been shown to be effective. So in a sense electrical activity can be added by the neocortex but there is always underlying electrical activity present in the brain to regulate things such as the heartbeat and digestion.
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sudly
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: D4M2T]
#23774072 - 10/26/16 05:35 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
D4M2T said:
Quote:
the subconscious is not a mapped thing, in fact it is purely a conjectural bag of what people otherwise call memory and personality, but it is so vague and badly used as a term that it taints anyone that uses it. Also many of sudly's attributions for parts of the brain are wrong except for the homunculus.
it can be mapped, but only from individual to individual. we consider the individuals past impressions and memory patterns, and from their we understand what causes one portion of the brain to handle a memory-pattern in an unnatural or improper manner.
of course, this " map of impressions " may be empirically complex. now you can see why it is more of a "pool of water" than a map.
What you're describing is the mapping of an individuals synaptic network, not an anatomical mapping of the brain.
Anatomically mapped brain:
 
Synaptic network:

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redgreenvines
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: D4M2T]
#23774097 - 10/26/16 05:39 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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this part is true
Quote:
sudly said: The frontal cortex isn't going to suddenly start governing digestion so I don't know how you mean when you say a portion of the brain can take up the role of another. And of course activity in the brain won't cease because the human brain is electrically active in a 24 hour cycle, if it wasn't you'd be dead.
Memories are different but that doesn't mean different regions of the brain are switching roles and functions.
this not so much,
Quote:
sudly said: If anything, the neocortex and it's governance over perceptions and reason ...
the perceptions (associations) including reason are distributed not governed
and to D4M2T you should say it could one day be mapped instead of "can be mapped"
Quote:
D4M2T said: it can be mapped, but only from individual to individual. we consider the individuals past impressions and memory patterns, and from their we understand what causes one portion of the brain to handle a memory-pattern in an unnatural or improper manner.
of course, this " map of impressions " may be empirically complex. now you can see why it is more of a "pool of water" than a map.
the metaphor does not explain anything except that the issue is not clear, you could equally call it a bowl of mud.
also why use "their" instead of "there"
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: redgreenvines]
#23774118 - 10/26/16 05:45 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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The neocortex is known to govern reason and logic. The Limbic system, Basal ganglia, Reticular formation and Medula Oblingata together, govern sensations from the heart and gut which become our feelings.
Governors can distribute and without a brain you can't govern.
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D4M2T
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: sudly]
#23774133 - 10/26/16 05:50 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said:
Quote:
D4M2T said:
Quote:
sudly said: Not if the brain is divided into three separate regions that have distinct physiological functions.

of course, when i say "one portion may take on the properties of another completely seperate" this doesn't mean that for a brief moment they cease all activity and begin acting like another portion. it just means that when handling a specific memory-pattern or neural signal, they may take on a completely different nature for that specific signal.
The frontal cortex isn't going to suddenly start governing digestion so I don't know how you mean when you say a portion of the brain can take up the role of another. And of course activity in the brain won't cease because the human brain is electrically active in a 24 hour cycle, if it wasn't you'd be dead.
Memories are different but that doesn't mean different regions of the brain are switching roles and functions.
i never said it could "suddenly govern" something. i said that when handling a specific signal, it may handle that signal differently because it "thinks" its another portion of the rbain.
digestion may be slow sometimes because maybe memorys of the present day (still fresh in your head) could've caused the area that governs digestion to mishandle a signal.
and again, this is empirically complex, possibly millions of memories playing into one single sensation.
Edited by D4M2T (10/26/16 05:56 PM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: sudly]
#23774224 - 10/26/16 06:24 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: The neocortex is known to govern reason and logic. The Limbic system, Basal ganglia, Reticular formation and Medula Oblingata together, govern sensations from the heart and gut which become our feelings.
Governors can distribute and without a brain you can't govern.
you mean like an oligarchy? really? all that is known is that they are somewhat involved, not that they govern. if the word "governed" is used it is a mistake, it is like saying that the alternator governs the electricity in a car while it is actually involved in transduction of rotation to power.
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redgreenvines
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: D4M2T]
#23774238 - 10/26/16 06:29 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
D4M2T said: ...
digestion may be slow sometimes because maybe memorys of the present day (still fresh in your head) could've caused the area that governs digestion to mishandle a signal.
and again, this is empirically complex, possibly millions of memories playing into one single sensation.
actually slower digestion has to do with parasympathetic neural activity, as well as organic systemic conditions, these are only loosely connected to associative memory, and emotional upsets, otherwise the autonomic nervous system operates without any intervention from the cognitive system, that is not about the millions of memories.
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sudly
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: D4M2T]
#23774249 - 10/26/16 06:32 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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The signals the brain receives are chemical and electrical impulses from the heart and gut regions, the brains job is to process those signals into the human experience.
Do you have anything other than opinion when you say some regions of the brain can 'think' they're other parts of the brain? Because again I don't know how one portion would think itself into doing the function of another portion.
Memories may effect digestion in the sense that when you experience a memory it invokes emotions that your body responds to and releases hormones to. Those hormones then interact with the gut to trigger the fight or flight response that results in an adrenaline release and an elevated heart rate.
In this sense one portion of the brain can affect another portion of the body but the individual function of one part of the brain does not switch to another.
@RGV
If so the leader of the brain oligarchy is the neocortex.
In this example I would say the alternator(neocortex) is involved in the transduction of sensational impulses to perceptions.
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D4M2T
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: redgreenvines]
#23774264 - 10/26/16 06:39 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
actually slower digestion has to do with parasympathetic neural activity, as well as organic systemic conditions, these are only loosely connected to associative memory, and emotional upsets, otherwise the autonomic nervous system operates without any intervention from the cognitive system, that is not about the millions of memories.
its hard to think of a symptom that is unique to only one cause. symptoms can be imitated.portions of the brain mishandling a signal can cause others to act differently.
thats why antidepressants are so overprescribed. ppsychologists can identify low serotonin but the cause of low serotonin may just be the conditioned mishandling of signals which caused that area of the brain to pump out less serotonin
Edited by D4M2T (10/26/16 06:45 PM)
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D4M2T
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: D4M2T]
#23774277 - 10/26/16 06:43 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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edit:
the brain is interconnected, so you can't just stop at one explanation for a symptom. The explanation for the symptom in turn could've been caused in the first place by a huge chain of explanations from across the brain.
how does parasympathetic neural activity even act in the first place? from receiving signals from other parts of the brain. and those parts of the brain receive signals from others. some signals may be from organic system conditions, some may be the cause of pre-conditioned mishandlings due to warped perception
Edited by D4M2T (10/26/16 07:22 PM)
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sudly
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: D4M2T]
#23774338 - 10/26/16 07:02 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Diseased are usually caused by external bacteria entering the body or genetic abnormalities.
As for sensations, they originate in the skin when nociceptor cells send electrical impulses to the brain when they come into contact with a surface.
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D4M2T
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: sudly]
#23774388 - 10/26/16 07:16 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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sudly said: Diseased are usually caused by external bacteria entering the body or genetic abnormalities.
As for sensations, they originate in the skin when nociceptor cells send electrical impulses to the brain when they come into contact with a surface.
by disease, i ment mental disease, but even physical diseases may be more easily fended off in one person because, aside from his brains natural reaction, his brain is also uniquely conditioned to react to those symptoms of that disease, causing a chain reaction throughout the connected pathways of the brain until it eventually leads to a phsyiological response.
sensations can often bring up different feelings in us all, and all for different reasons. a certain sight may cause someone to be disgusted, while others around you are confused as to why you are so disgusted. this is because those sensations are actually just memories inside our heads, and when these memorys are triggered through the physical apperance of them, a portions' pre-conditioned response to handle that memory signal may be different from person to person. due to everyone having different perceptions of these signals, these signals are handled differently from person to person
Edited by D4M2T (10/26/16 07:20 PM)
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sudly
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: D4M2T]
#23774431 - 10/26/16 07:30 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yes, different concentrations of neurotransmitters and hormones throughout the body and brain make up a wide variety of physiological and psychological responses.
Quote:
sensations can often bring up different feelings in us all, and all for different reasons. a certain sight may cause someone to be disgusted, while others around you are confused as to why you are so disgusted.
I only half agree with this, I think that the sensations humans experience bring up different feelings but I also think that those emotional experiences are within a spectra of love to hate that includes 21 other emotions/feelings. Happiness/Envy/Guilt/Jealousy/Admiration/Disgust etc.
If I tell two people to fuck off one can laugh while the other cries, this is because the individuals choose an emotional response to act upon from a spectra of emotions.
Sensations are not originally memories, they only become memories once the sensational impulses have reached the brain and been processed into perceptual experiences.
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D4M2T
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: sudly]
#23774474 - 10/26/16 07:44 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: Yes, different concentrations of neurotransmitters and hormones throughout the body and brain make up a wide variety of physiological and psychological responses.
Quote:
sensations can often bring up different feelings in us all, and all for different reasons. a certain sight may cause someone to be disgusted, while others around you are confused as to why you are so disgusted.
I only half agree with this, I think that the sensations humans experience bring up different feelings but I also think that those emotional experiences are within a spectra of love to hate that includes 21 other emotions/feelings. Happiness/Envy/Guilt/Jealousy/Admiration/Disgust etc.
If I tell two people to fuck off one can laugh while the other cries, this is because the individuals choose an emotional response to act upon from a spectra of emotions.
Sensations are not originally memories, they only become memories once the sensational impulses have reached the brain and been processed into perceptual experiences.
that is true, our brains do share the same framework, and so we all share the same fundamental feelings, but this framework is slightly altered due to memory-conditioning. for example, as our memories collect, we start making associations, and sometimes these associations can be negative, and so when we recollect a certain image, because of our associations we react in differenet ways. (some may recollect a certain memory because of a seemingly unrelated image, and then that certain memory may trigger another reaction, and on and on)
there are truly no final effects of any function because those final effects have even more effects. interconnectedness is a big circle kinda
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sudly
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: D4M2T]
#23774580 - 10/26/16 08:06 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Only the Central Nervous System(Brain and Spinal Cord) functions to govern memory conditioning, the Peripheral Nervous System is what governs sensations.
We have different memories so we condition sensations differently.
There are true final effects of nociceptors sending sensation signals to the CNS to be processed into perceptions by the brain.
What those perceptions are is based upon individual conceptualisations and memories of sensations.
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D4M2T
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: sudly]
#23774746 - 10/26/16 08:53 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: Only the Central Nervous System(Brain and Spinal Cord) functions to govern memory conditioning, the Peripheral Nervous System is what governs sensations.
Sensations are felt in the brain, not the skin.
But forget all that... Look All of the tecnicalities you guys are speaking of are absolutely True, but Modern science still doesn't understand even half of the brain yet! When we finally do understand all of it, we will be able to explain it all in purely Scientific and logical terms. For Now, we have to use a mixture of the technical terms we already know and educated guesses. it is logical enough to examine our conscious behavior and try and see what memorys or associations between memory's cause those behaviors, and then we can make inferences as to how the physiology of the rest of the brain must work.
Edited by D4M2T (10/26/16 08:54 PM)
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sudly
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: D4M2T]
#23774818 - 10/26/16 09:15 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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The brain doesn't have any sensation receptors and does NOT feel sensation, it is in the nociceptors that pain is felt, e.g. touching a hot pan and feeling the sensation.
Modern science has a quite a firm grip on the anatomy of the human brain but not the exact mechanisms at place that allow it to function.
It is not enough to examine conscious experience if it doesn't involve physiologically sound science.
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D4M2T
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: sudly]
#23775033 - 10/26/16 10:28 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: The brain doesn't have any sensation receptors and does NOT feel sensation, it is in the nociceptors that pain is felt, e.g. touching a hot pan and feeling the sensation.
Modern science has a quite a firm grip on the anatomy of the human brain but not the exact mechanisms at place that allow it to function.
It is not enough to examine conscious experience if it doesn't involve physiologically sound science.
The scientists working on the Human Brain Project (Commissioned by the European Union in 2013 and currently the frontline of brain science) disagree with you :
"Understanding the human brain is one of the greatest challenges facing 21st century science. " ... "Neurological research data varies by biological organisation schemes, species studied, and by developmental stages, making it difficult to collectively use the data to replicate the brain in a model that acts as a single system." ... " We find that the major obstacle that hinders our understanding of the brain is the fragmentation of brain research and the data it produces. Modern neuroscience has been enormously productive but unsystematic. " ... "Today, we know a lot about the individual levels. What we do not have is a causal understanding of the way events at the lowest level in the hierarchy cascade through the different levels to produce human cognition and behaviour. " ... "Modern neuroscience research has generated vast volumes of experimental data and large-scale initiatives launched in recent years will gather much more. Nonetheless, much of the knowledge needed to build multi-level atlases and unifying models of the brain is still missing."
http://tierra.aslab.upm.es/documents/projects/HBP_flagship_report_for_Europe.pdf
Edited by D4M2T (10/26/16 10:30 PM)
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sudly
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: D4M2T]
#23775049 - 10/26/16 10:33 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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"Understanding the human brain is one of the greatest challenges facing 21st century science. "
Irrelevant.
Quote:
" We find that the major obstacle that hinders our understanding of the brain is the fragmentation of brain research and the data it produces. Modern neuroscience has been enormously productive but unsystematic. "
That's why it's important to develop a systems model of the human brain.
Quote:
"Today, we know a lot about the individual levels. What we do not have is a causal understanding of the way events at the lowest level in the hierarchy cascade through the different levels to produce human cognition and behaviour."
That means that today we have a better understanding of synaptic networks than we used to but we do not have a proper understanding yet of how cognition(perception) and behaviour(sensations) are interconnected.
Quote:
"Modern neuroscience research has generated vast volumes of experimental data and large-scale initiatives launched in recent years will gather much more. Nonetheless, much of the knowledge needed to build multi-level atlases and unifying models of the brain is still missing."
This means an accurate multi-level model of the human brain is still required.
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redgreenvines
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: sudly]
#23775107 - 10/26/16 10:49 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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sudly; the cortex itself associates it does not govern association also the cortex itself experiences it does not govern experiencing
both functions occur in sensory cortical regions including auditory and visual (neocortex) regions as well as in the frontal regions.
so memory also forms and is recalled in the frontal cortex and pre-frontal cortex which accommodate meta association - ideas that are not just single sense based. these (frontal and pre-frontal) regions take in the totality of sensory sensation and memory recall and associate that in contextual perspective.
if anything governs, it is said that pre-frontal cortex, in adults, is the seat of judgement; but that is really just association abstracted to types of situations - where at least 2 abstractions provide a sense of suitability which resembles natural morality and that seems to happen in the pre-frontal cortex. but it is also simple association.
the engram patterns of memory form where experience is experienced in the primary sensory regions auditory visual and somatosensory cortex, including those more forward meta areas (frontal and pre-frontal).
when memory forms, the activated neurons of the engram become associated (connected) into one thing such that when a few of those neurons are later re-excited, the rest of that engram can be re-activated more easily - this is associative memory recall.
all that "governing" you speak of assumes many more processes than are actually required: associative memory formation and recall do no need governing or extra brain centers dedicated to any vague recording and playback memory function. I was joking when I used the word oligarchy.
it's really anarchy. Funny as it may seem that is no joke.
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sudly
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: redgreenvines]
#23775125 - 10/26/16 10:54 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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The neocortex associating experiences sounds like governance to me.
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D4M2T
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: sudly]
#23775424 - 10/27/16 01:27 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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aisde from my impulsive drug-induced blabber i actually learned alot from this forum. thanks much<3
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redgreenvines
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: D4M2T]
#23775620 - 10/27/16 04:50 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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governance is much more complex than mere association of 1. what is sensed in the same moment - (the formation of) an engram of memory - a pattern of activated neurons 2. what was sensed in a similar way as it was sensed before - potentiated recollection of the engram - restoring a pattern of activated neurons 3. what is frequently sensed in a similar way - reinforced associative memory (strengthening of memory - or habituation) - intensifying the integration of a pattern of neurons
Associative memory does these three things throughout the cerebral cortex, governance describes more meta-functions like foresight and maintenance of order, determination of fairness, assessment of health.
Governance is not about the things that happen organically - i.e. a governing agency is not at play.
Meta functions similar to governance are associatively practiced in the pre-frontal cortex (which reviews the frontal cortex saving patterns among perceptions of perceptions) and to a lesser extent in the "cognitive" or general purpose frontal cortex where all/any cerebral activity (saving patterns of perception) is reviewed.
Otherwise, homeostasis acts kind of like kind of agency-free governance but it is purely organic, i.e. not part of the associative brain functions, and it is systemic.
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sudly
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: redgreenvines]
#23776834 - 10/27/16 01:50 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yes, governance is complex.
Quote:
Governance: all of processes of governing
But perhaps you're right, organic governance does sound good.
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redgreenvines
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: sudly]
#23776880 - 10/27/16 02:07 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think you might refine your theory in private for a few years before making a book.
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sudly
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: redgreenvines]
#23777247 - 10/27/16 03:48 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'm not making a book.
I'm writing an undergraduate length thesis for the heck of it so it's more of a hobby study and I don't expect to finish it overnight.
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redgreenvines
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: sudly]
#23777357 - 10/27/16 04:20 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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phew no book, good luck with the spelling then
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