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OfflineD4M2T
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: sudly]
    #23774388 - 10/26/16 07:16 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Diseased are usually caused by external bacteria entering the body or genetic abnormalities.

As for sensations, they originate in the skin when nociceptor cells send electrical impulses to the brain when they come into contact with a surface.




by disease, i ment mental disease, but even physical diseases may be more easily fended off in one person because, aside from his brains natural reaction, his brain is also uniquely conditioned to react to those symptoms of that disease, causing a chain reaction throughout the connected pathways of the brain until it eventually leads to a phsyiological response.

sensations can often bring up different feelings in us all, and all for different reasons. a certain sight may cause someone to be disgusted, while others around you are confused as to why you are so disgusted.
this is because those sensations are actually just memories inside our heads, and when these memorys are triggered through the physical apperance of them, a portions' pre-conditioned response to handle that memory signal may be different from person to person.
due to everyone having different perceptions of these signals, these signals are handled differently from person to person


Edited by D4M2T (10/26/16 07:20 PM)


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: D4M2T]
    #23774431 - 10/26/16 07:30 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, different concentrations of neurotransmitters and hormones throughout the body and brain make up a wide variety of physiological and psychological responses.

Quote:

sensations can often bring up different feelings in us all, and all for different reasons. a certain sight may cause someone to be disgusted, while others around you are confused as to why you are so disgusted.




I only half agree with this, I think that the sensations humans experience bring up different feelings but I also think that those emotional experiences are within a spectra of love to hate that includes 21 other emotions/feelings.
Happiness/Envy/Guilt/Jealousy/Admiration/Disgust etc.

If I tell two people to fuck off one can laugh while the other cries, this is because the individuals choose an emotional response to act upon from a spectra of emotions.

Sensations are not originally memories, they only become memories once the sensational impulses have reached the brain and been processed into perceptual experiences.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineD4M2T
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: sudly]
    #23774474 - 10/26/16 07:44 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Yes, different concentrations of neurotransmitters and hormones throughout the body and brain make up a wide variety of physiological and psychological responses.

Quote:

sensations can often bring up different feelings in us all, and all for different reasons. a certain sight may cause someone to be disgusted, while others around you are confused as to why you are so disgusted.




I only half agree with this, I think that the sensations humans experience bring up different feelings but I also think that those emotional experiences are within a spectra of love to hate that includes 21 other emotions/feelings.
Happiness/Envy/Guilt/Jealousy/Admiration/Disgust etc.

If I tell two people to fuck off one can laugh while the other cries, this is because the individuals choose an emotional response to act upon from a spectra of emotions.

Sensations are not originally memories, they only become memories once the sensational impulses have reached the brain and been processed into perceptual experiences.




that is true, our brains do share the same framework, and so we all share the same fundamental feelings, but this framework is slightly altered due to memory-conditioning. for example, as our memories collect, we start making associations, and sometimes these associations can be negative, and so when we recollect a certain image, because of our associations we react in differenet ways. (some may recollect a certain memory because of a seemingly unrelated image, and then that certain memory may trigger another reaction, and on and on)

there are truly no final effects of any function because those final effects have even more effects. interconnectedness is a big circle kinda


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: D4M2T]
    #23774580 - 10/26/16 08:06 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Only the Central Nervous System(Brain and Spinal Cord) functions to govern memory conditioning, the Peripheral Nervous System is what governs sensations.

We have different memories so we condition sensations differently.

There are true final effects of nociceptors sending sensation signals to the CNS to be processed into perceptions by the brain.

What those perceptions are is based upon individual conceptualisations and memories of sensations.


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OfflineD4M2T
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: sudly]
    #23774746 - 10/26/16 08:53 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Only the Central Nervous System(Brain and Spinal Cord) functions to govern memory conditioning, the Peripheral Nervous System is what governs sensations.





Sensations are felt in the brain, not the skin.

But forget all that... Look
All of the tecnicalities you guys are speaking of are absolutely True, but Modern science still doesn't understand even half of the brain yet! When we finally do understand all of it, we will be able to explain it all in purely Scientific and logical terms. For Now, we have to use a mixture of the technical terms we already know and educated guesses. it is logical enough to examine our conscious behavior and try and see what memorys or associations between memory's cause those behaviors, and then we can make inferences as to how the physiology of the rest of the brain must work.


Edited by D4M2T (10/26/16 08:54 PM)


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: D4M2T]
    #23774818 - 10/26/16 09:15 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

The brain doesn't have any sensation receptors and does NOT feel sensation, it is in the nociceptors that pain is felt, e.g. touching a hot pan and feeling the sensation.

Modern science has a quite a firm grip on the anatomy of the human brain but not the exact mechanisms at place that allow it to function.

It is not enough to examine conscious experience if it doesn't involve physiologically sound science.


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OfflineD4M2T
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: sudly]
    #23775033 - 10/26/16 10:28 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
The brain doesn't have any sensation receptors and does NOT feel sensation, it is in the nociceptors that pain is felt, e.g. touching a hot pan and feeling the sensation.

Modern science has a quite a firm grip on the anatomy of the human brain but not the exact mechanisms at place that allow it to function.

It is not enough to examine conscious experience if it doesn't involve physiologically sound science.





The scientists working on the Human Brain Project (Commissioned by the European Union in 2013 and currently the frontline of brain science) disagree with you :


"Understanding the human brain is one of the greatest
challenges facing 21st century science. "
...
"Neurological research data varies by biological organisation schemes, species studied, and by developmental stages, making it difficult to collectively use the data to replicate the brain in a model that acts as a single system."
...
" We find that the major obstacle that hinders our understanding
of the brain is the fragmentation of brain research
and the data it produces. Modern neuroscience has been
enormously productive but unsystematic. "
...
"Today, we know a lot about the individual
levels. What we do not have is a causal understanding
of the way events at the lowest level in the hierarchy cascade
through the different levels to produce human cognition and
behaviour. "
...
"Modern neuroscience research has generated vast volumes
of experimental data and large-scale initiatives launched in
recent years will gather much more. Nonetheless, much of
the knowledge needed to build multi-level atlases and unifying
models of the brain is still missing."


http://tierra.aslab.upm.es/documents/projects/HBP_flagship_report_for_Europe.pdf


Edited by D4M2T (10/26/16 10:30 PM)


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


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Posts: 10,812
Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: D4M2T]
    #23775049 - 10/26/16 10:33 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

"Understanding the human brain is one of the greatest
challenges facing 21st century science. "



Irrelevant.

Quote:

" We find that the major obstacle that hinders our understanding
of the brain is the fragmentation of brain research
and the data it produces. Modern neuroscience has been
enormously productive but unsystematic. "




That's why it's important to develop a systems model of the human brain.

Quote:

"Today, we know a lot about the individual
levels. What we do not have is a causal understanding
of the way events at the lowest level in the hierarchy cascade
through the different levels to produce human cognition and
behaviour."




That means that today we have a better understanding of synaptic networks than we used to but we do not have a proper understanding yet of how cognition(perception) and behaviour(sensations) are interconnected.

Quote:

"Modern neuroscience research has generated vast volumes
of experimental data and large-scale initiatives launched in
recent years will gather much more. Nonetheless, much of
the knowledge needed to build multi-level atlases and unifying
models of the brain is still missing."




This means an accurate multi-level model of the human brain is still required.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: sudly]
    #23775107 - 10/26/16 10:49 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

sudly;
the cortex itself associates
it does not govern association
also the cortex itself experiences
it does not govern experiencing

both functions occur in sensory cortical regions including auditory and visual (neocortex) regions as well as in the frontal regions.

so memory also forms and is recalled in the frontal cortex and pre-frontal cortex which accommodate meta association - ideas that are not just single sense based.
these (frontal and pre-frontal) regions take in the totality of sensory sensation and memory recall and associate that in contextual perspective.

if anything governs, it is said that pre-frontal cortex, in adults, is the seat of judgement; but that is really just association abstracted to types of situations - where at least 2 abstractions provide a sense of suitability which resembles natural morality and that seems to happen in the pre-frontal cortex. but it is also simple association.

the engram patterns of memory form where experience is experienced in the primary sensory regions auditory visual and somatosensory cortex, including those more forward meta areas (frontal and pre-frontal).

when memory forms, the activated neurons of the engram become associated (connected) into one thing such that when a few of those neurons are later re-excited, the rest of that engram can be re-activated more easily - this is associative memory recall.

all that "governing" you speak of assumes many more processes than are actually required: associative memory formation and recall do no need governing or extra brain centers dedicated to any vague recording and playback memory function. I was joking when I used the word oligarchy.

it's really anarchy. Funny as it may seem that is no joke.


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Invisiblesudly
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Posts: 10,812
Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23775125 - 10/26/16 10:54 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

The neocortex associating experiences sounds like governance to me.


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OfflineD4M2T
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: sudly]
    #23775424 - 10/27/16 01:27 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

aisde from my impulsive drug-induced blabber i actually learned alot from this forum. thanks much<3


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: D4M2T]
    #23775620 - 10/27/16 04:50 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

governance is much more complex than mere association of
1. what is sensed in the same moment  -  (the formation of) an engram of memory - a pattern of activated neurons
2. what was sensed in a similar way as it was sensed before - potentiated recollection of the engram - restoring a pattern of activated neurons
3. what is frequently sensed in a similar way - reinforced associative memory (strengthening of memory - or habituation) - intensifying the integration of a pattern of neurons

Associative memory does these three things throughout the cerebral cortex, governance describes more meta-functions like foresight and maintenance of order, determination of fairness, assessment of health.

Governance is not about the things that happen organically - i.e. a governing agency is not at play.

Meta functions similar to governance are associatively practiced in the pre-frontal cortex (which reviews the frontal cortex saving patterns among  perceptions of perceptions) and to a lesser extent in the "cognitive" or general purpose frontal cortex where all/any cerebral activity (saving patterns of perception) is reviewed.

Otherwise, homeostasis acts kind of like kind of agency-free governance but it is purely organic, i.e. not part of the associative brain functions, and it is systemic.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23776834 - 10/27/16 01:50 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, governance is complex.
Quote:

Governance: all of processes of governing




But perhaps you're right, organic governance does sound good.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: sudly]
    #23776880 - 10/27/16 02:07 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I think you might refine your theory in private for a few years before making a book.


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Invisiblesudly
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Posts: 10,812
Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23777247 - 10/27/16 03:48 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I'm not making a book.

I'm writing an undergraduate length thesis for the heck of it so it's more of a hobby study and I don't expect to finish it overnight.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: some stuff about the Unconscious [Re: sudly]
    #23777357 - 10/27/16 04:20 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

phew no book,
good luck with the spelling then


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