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MattMVS7
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Dream states vs trips and ndes
#23765733 - 10/24/16 12:11 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I have heard that trips are unlike dreams and nightmares, but can contain some of the elements of dreams and nightmares since some of the neurological processes that are involved in dreaming can also be involved in trips.
In dreaming, we can experience radically altered mental states. They are not experiences such as seeing things, hearing things, blending of sensations, smells, or feelings. They are complete alterations of the entire mental state itself.
They are entirely new experiences and there is no way to describe them. They can either be wonderful experiences or horrible experiences. So I was wondering if these types of altered mental states in our dreams and nightmares can be one of the elements experienced during a trip.
Before anyone says that they have experienced those sorts of mental states during their trip, it has to make me wonder though. If, for example, you say that you had a strange dream-like mental state during a trip, I have to wonder if you are just simply attributing the strangeness and bizarreness of that experience as being a dream experience when it is not like a mental state that you would experience in your dreams.
So compare those indescribable altered mental states that you have experienced during your dreams and nightmares to the ones you've experienced during your trip and see if they really match up or if they are at least similar.
So are they similar and do they match up? Or are they different experiences unique to trips? Or are there actually no such indescribable altered mental states at all during a trip and that trips only consist of the common features that are describable such as seeing strange shapes, flying, etc.?
This question also applies to near death experiences. Do they consist of indescribable altered mental states? Or do they only consist of the types of mental states that are describable such as being out of body, having an expanded sense of awareness, intense bliss, etc.?
Edited by MattMVS7 (10/24/16 01:42 PM)
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Peyote Road
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Re: What type of altered mental states are possible during a trip? [Re: MattMVS7]
#23766768 - 10/24/16 01:00 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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if you want more dream likes states, i'd advise using salvia, ketamine , mugwort and perhaps small doses of amanita muscaria or mexican dreaming herb instead of classical psychedelics. The substances I mentioned all take you closer to the realm of dream than classical psychedelics which are more focused on altered sense perceptions and thought processes.
-------------------- The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra
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MattMVS7
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Re: What type of altered mental states are possible during a trip? [Re: Peyote Road]
#23766810 - 10/24/16 01:22 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Peyote Road said: if you want more dream likes states, i'd advise using salvia, ketamine , mugwort and perhaps small doses of amanita muscaria or mexican dreaming herb instead of classical psychedelics. The substances I mentioned all take you closer to the realm of dream than classical psychedelics which are more focused on altered sense perceptions and thought processes.
But how can there be any dream states at all during such drugs you've mentioned when hallucinations and dreaming are different neurological processes in the brain?
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Peyote Road
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Re: What type of altered mental states are possible during a trip? [Re: MattMVS7]
#23766920 - 10/24/16 01:58 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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theyre not exactly the same as dreaming
-------------------- The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra
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MattMVS7
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Re: What type of altered mental states are possible during a trip? [Re: Peyote Road]
#23766945 - 10/24/16 02:07 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Peyote Road said: theyre not exactly the same as dreaming
But you are saying that the indescribable radically altered mental states that are experienced during such drugs are at least similar to the ones you experience in dreams and nightmares?
This is going back to the question I asked in my opening post. Or are these altered mental states unique experiences to these drugs that are falsely being attributed as similar to dream states due to their strange and bizarre characteristics that one would likely say are dream like, but not actually what you would experience during dreaming?
Edited by MattMVS7 (10/24/16 02:11 PM)
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Peyote Road
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Re: What type of altered mental states are possible during a trip? [Re: MattMVS7]
#23766984 - 10/24/16 02:20 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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depends on your point of view, they are unique for sure but could be similar to dreaming in some ways.
-------------------- The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra
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MattMVS7
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Re: What type of altered mental states are possible during a trip? [Re: Peyote Road]
#23767051 - 10/24/16 02:42 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Peyote Road said: depends on your point of view, they are unique for sure but could be similar to dreaming in some ways.
I will ask you and others who have taken such drugs and other psychedelics. Compare the indescribable altered mental states during your trips (whether good or bad) to that of the ones you have experienced during your dreams and nightmares. Was there a similar element of experience or not?
You might classify both as strange and bizarre experiences. But was that strangeness and bizarreness during your trips similar to the ones in your dreams/nightmares, or was it a unique experience entirely?
Edited by MattMVS7 (10/24/16 02:43 PM)
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PrimalSoup
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Re: What type of altered mental states are possible during a trip? [Re: MattMVS7]
#23767502 - 10/24/16 05:00 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Tripping (at least with mushrooms) is often very much like dreaming while wide awake. Not in the sense that you can control reality (even though you can in certain extremely fundamental ways) but in the sort of mental logic that operates - dream logic is almost the same as trip logic. In both cases I believe the executive center of the brain is suppressed, and a different connectivity is in play. I know of no studies that compare this directly, but recent work from Robin Carhartt et al with MRI studies analyzed for brain function connectivity illustrate quite convincingly how different brain function is under the influence of psilocin - and now LSD as well.
See https://www.wired.com/2014/10/magic-mushroom-brain/ and http://psychedelicfrontier.com/lsd-brain-imaging-study/ for the low level analysis. The full papers are available on line but they are much tougher going.
tl;dr you don't think too well when you're dreaming, and you don't think too well when you're tripping.
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if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat youPrimal's simple tested teks and projects: Wheat Prep 2.0 Acidic Tea Tek Potency Project!
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MattMVS7
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Re: What type of altered mental states are possible during a trip? [Re: PrimalSoup]
#23768145 - 10/24/16 08:25 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thank you for answering my questions so far. I also have another important question. This is in regards to near death experiences and trips as well. When I am depressed, I experience a certain set of radically indescribable altered mental states during my depressive nightmares. They are experiences far beyond horrible. So they are experiences in the depressive type category of altered mental states.
So my question here is, if I were to experience a horrible altered state during a trip or an nde which would be a completely different experience, then would it be possible for it to be an altered state in the depressive category? It would be a different experience, but would it still be possible that it would be an experience put into the depressive type category of altered mental states?
If so, then that would make it a new type of altered mental state put into the depressive category type. Or would the types of horrible indescribable altered mental states that are experienced during trips and ndes be their own unique category of experience entirely?
In order for one of these altered mental states to be classified as a depressive category type, it has to be a distinct experience as to classify it as such. It cannot bear a little bit of dubious resemblance to a depressive category type of altered state.
Edited by MattMVS7 (10/24/16 08:29 PM)
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PrimalSoup
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Re: What type of altered mental states are possible during a trip? [Re: MattMVS7]
#23768538 - 10/24/16 10:32 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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beats me - i just don't get those... 
it's a good question though.
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if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat youPrimal's simple tested teks and projects: Wheat Prep 2.0 Acidic Tea Tek Potency Project!
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