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Dirtygoat
Bread



Registered: 10/22/13
Posts: 561
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Straw bleach pasteurization?
#23764222 - 10/23/16 12:59 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I can't find much info about this.
Had anyone tried bleach pasteurization for straw?
I read about one cup per 45 gallons of water and soak for 2h.
I understand it may reduce yields but that is not a problem. I'm more wondering if it is reliable for oyster/shiitake mushrooms and if the bleach would harm the mushrooms?
Thank you
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Ferather
Mycological



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Re: Straw bleach pasteurization? [Re: Dirtygoat]
#23764250 - 10/23/16 01:08 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Tea is cheaper than bleach, 100% safer and increases yield. Can even make bacteria resistant tea agar. The tea agar is new and in development, but successful at stopping bacteria growing.
Its very unusual, and not ideal to chemicalize a substrate. Other than fertilizers, stay 100% chemical free.
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worowa
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Re: Straw bleach pasteurization? [Re: Ferather]
#23764469 - 10/23/16 02:56 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I tried "bleach" (sodium hypochlorite), years ago for oysters, and it works. Problem is you get horrid smelling, and poinonous organochlorines.
It is common to use chemicals for treating substrate, from hydrated lime, soap, bleach, peroxide etc.
Tea is more expensive than bleach, and is used to grow various bacteria, so it is not 100% effective at killing bacteria.
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Ferather
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Re: Straw bleach pasteurization? [Re: worowa]
#23764560 - 10/23/16 03:36 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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There's going to be natural bacterial decomposer's of tea, the same as any other substrate. Thats why we pasteurize or sterilize the substrates we use, then keep them clean.
You would need to reinfect the substrate, based on infection style. As example, the bacteria was in the soil it grew from.
Coliform bacteria die at 80°C for 5 minutes. Even tap water can contain Coliform.
Antibacterial properties of tea.
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Dirtygoat
Bread



Registered: 10/22/13
Posts: 561
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Re: Straw bleach pasteurization? [Re: Ferather]
#23765030 - 10/23/16 06:52 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Wow omg that is very interesting. Thank you vm for the info.
I have to look into that tea. So bleach is out of the question for me, the shiitake I produce now are very good quality, bleach would be risky.
(Main problem for me is heating up large amounts of water. If I'm doing straw I'm doing large scale and I need like a whole bale pasteurized at a time.
Atm I am doing wood blocks, but the Autoclave is outdoors and winter is coming. I'm looking for an indoor alternative and I have the shiitake straw strain...)
So that tea is extremely interesting. I'd assume the water has to be fairly warm with tea.
Where did you hear/read this, where would I be able to learn more?
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Ferather
Mycological



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Re: Straw bleach pasteurization? [Re: Dirtygoat]
#23765963 - 10/24/16 05:16 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Dive through my pocket guide, its a compilation of information and guides. Google is the worlds most powerful interactive encyclopedia.
If you're new, start without grains, move on later. I also suggest reading about competitors.
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Dirtygoat
Bread



Registered: 10/22/13
Posts: 561
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Re: Straw bleach pasteurization? [Re: Ferather]
#23766212 - 10/24/16 08:57 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'm not new, but I will def look through your guides!
I'm already beyond grains. I was actually thinking to make wood spawn for straw.
I would prepare the wood as I would normally for wood blocks but without woodchips (so sawdust + brand + gypsum) then use the block before it browns to inoculate the straw. This way the straw will also have the gypsum, bran and some wood to help the mushrooms grow (in this case I plan to try out the shiitake straw strain)
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katbusa
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Re: Straw bleach pasteurization? [Re: Dirtygoat]
#23766367 - 10/24/16 10:28 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Tea does work and it is starting to look like a good additive. Like what ferather and worowa said it isn't a one shot kills all option but it is alot better than using antibiotics. I have used tea water to hydrate sawdust blocks and straw to add nutrients and protection against bacteria. I have also used it to clean a very dirty culture. In all we are still in the process of research and methodology development for the practical uses of tea. Give it a shot and let us know what you think.
If you wanted to give it a try I would do something like this:
Use 4 tea bags per quart or roughly 1 liter, 16 tea bags per gallon of water. Heat the water up to boiling, turn off the heat and allow the tea bags to steep for 5min.
Add the tea water to the straw and hydrate your straw like you would normally. Then pasteurize like you would normally.
You could also make a tea slurry with the leaves. You will have to talk to ferather more about this since he has more experience with it.
I can see tea getting expensive when using it in large bulk substrate runs. have you though about making a large steam pasteurizer? There are a few people here that use them.
Edited by katbusa (10/24/16 10:36 AM)
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Ferather
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Re: Straw bleach pasteurization? [Re: katbusa]
#23766435 - 10/24/16 11:00 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I use everything when I make a substrate, more nutrition, no waste. For soaking or making agar you want strained tea water.
Read my Pocket Guide for more information.
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Gr0wer
always improving



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Re: Straw bleach pasteurization? [Re: Ferather]
#23767191 - 10/24/16 03:24 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Why not stick with the tried and true hot water bath or lime?
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tump
ban the undead



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Re: Straw bleach pasteurization? [Re: Gr0wer]
#23768570 - 10/24/16 10:51 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Lime is good. Bleach works in a picth. But failures easy. Will not do well with shiitake because of colonised time.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,876
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Straw bleach pasteurization? [Re: Ferather]
#23768612 - 10/24/16 11:17 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferather said: I use everything when I make a substrate, more nutrition, no waste. For soaking or making agar you want strained tea water.
Read my Pocket Guide for more information.
I get that the tea has nutrition, but the purported antibacterial effect is supposed to be due to the presence of tannins, yes? In that case, why not get a cheap bag of redwood bark chips and extract the tannins in a barrel of water at ambient temp? you'll get much more tannins than any tea leaf.
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Dirtygoat
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Re: Straw bleach pasteurization? [Re: katbusa]
#23774835 - 10/26/16 09:22 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: I get that the tea has nutrition, but the purported antibacterial effect is supposed to be due to the presence of tannins, yes? In that case, why not get a cheap bag of redwood bark chips and extract the tannins in a barrel of water at ambient temp? you'll get much more tannins than any tea leaf.
Similar thing my boss said, yea I think it's the tannins. He said straight tannins is just much cheaper.
Quote:
Gr0wer said: Why not stick with the tried and true hot water bath or lime?
Quote:
tump said: Lime is good. Bleach works in a picth. But failures easy. Will not do well with shiitake because of colonised time.
Like I said if I'm doing straw at all it's large scale.. like 255 gallon tub large.
Heating this amount of water is hard and that is the issue we bumped into.
I think my boss said lime is expensive so that's why we haven't done that.. (Also reduce yields? Also not good for shiitake?) I will probably give it a try though, if it's quick and easy then cost shouldn't matter as long as it works for shiitake.
Quote:
katbusa said: Tea does work and it is starting to look like a good additive. Like what ferather and worowa said it isn't a one shot kills all option but it is alot better than using antibiotics. I have used tea water to hydrate sawdust blocks and straw to add nutrients and protection against bacteria. I have also used it to clean a very dirty culture. In all we are still in the process of research and methodology development for the practical uses of tea. Give it a shot and let us know what you think.
If you wanted to give it a try I would do something like this:
Use 4 tea bags per quart or roughly 1 liter, 16 tea bags per gallon of water. Heat the water up to boiling, turn off the heat and allow the tea bags to steep for 5min.
Add the tea water to the straw and hydrate your straw like you would normally. Then pasteurize like you would normally.
You could also make a tea slurry with the leaves. You will have to talk to ferather more about this since he has more experience with it.
I can see tea getting expensive when using it in large bulk substrate runs. have you though about making a large steam pasteurizer? There are a few people here that use them.
I have, and it failed lol.. it needs to be tested, tried, failed, tested again and perfected before it works. It's just hard to make a setup where the steam doesn't sterilize. And it seemed hard to get the straw moistened through steam.
All these suggestions extremely appreciated. Now that it's cold I can't do sawdust bags outside in the autoclave so we will have all the time to experiment indoors with straw.
(We've been producing about 100 bags a week so now we have to substitute that amount with straw)
Furthermore... If anyone still interested...
Of course the most common method for straw pasteurization is hot water. This is what we are still trying to achieve. As mentioned 255 gallon so we need ~150 gallons of 180F water.
We are looking for a water heater on craigslist. We have purchased a separate thermostat to allow the heater to go higher than 130, to 180.
.. My boss is the engineer.. but so his plan is to use 2 or 3 boilers, attached through a loop to increase the water reservoir to 150 gallons and circulate the water so it can heat up and stay at 180 overnight.
Of course this will be a bit of an investment, but the plan is to heat the water overnight, indoors, with an electric switch, so that when I get there in the morning all I have to do is dump the water and add straw.
At this point I really like the idea with the tea. I will probably brew the 150 gallon tea first, leave the tea leaves in the mixture and then add straw for a regular hot water pasteurization + bonus tea. Should help stay clean and hopefully increase yield.
Thank you for all comments and input, late reply haven't gotten a chance sooner. Basically we are sticking to the regular hot water bath using advanced mechanics to accomplish this scale lol....
Hope someone made it this far... anyone... lol. Thanks for reading. Still looking forward to more comments and feedback thanks guy
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Gr0wer
always improving



Registered: 09/16/03
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Re: Straw bleach pasteurization? [Re: Dirtygoat]
#23774974 - 10/26/16 10:13 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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dude a simple hot water heater element at the bottom of an insulated tank is all you need. A 5500w 220v will heat your water in 8-9 hours. Sounds like a long time but your not sitting there watching it. Get a cheap digital temp controller on it then a heavy relay to maintain around 165F, that's all you need. Fill your tank the night before and let it warm up over night. To run that element for 9 hours it will only cost about $5 in electric. Your also best using that to drain into open top pasteurization tanks that are packed with sub, and a drain at the bottom. Gravity would be your best bet since its free, if you can place the hot water tank up high. You could even pump the water back up into the hot water tank for another batch but you will run into two issues, you will need to filter the water to prevent junk from clogging your pump, and your tank is now a dirty water tank so it will need to be cleaned.
http://www.rapidtables.com/calc/electric/electricity-calculator.htm http://manskirtbrewing.com/calculators.aspx
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Quadman
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Re: Straw bleach pasteurization? [Re: Gr0wer]
#23775194 - 10/26/16 11:21 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I installed 2 tankless water heaters in series. It was for a dairy they needed wash water. The gas savings was substantial. The water was scalding hot. The first pre heated and the second brought it up to temp.
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adadada
Stranger


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Re: Straw bleach pasteurization? [Re: Quadman]
#23775732 - 10/27/16 06:44 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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On another note, lime is cheap (at least in North Carolina).
Not sure what your budget is like but I'd be surprised if price was the deciding factor for lime pasteurization.
Might want to revisit that.
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Dirtygoat
Bread



Registered: 10/22/13
Posts: 561
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Re: Straw bleach pasteurization? [Re: Quadman]
#23777453 - 10/27/16 04:54 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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lol so what you guys are telling me is that my boss just likes to argue with me and tell me I'm wrong XD
Jk.. but yea thank you all.
hmmmmmm.... idk why every time I bring up the water heater he always has a problem with it and now he's trying to create some complex contraption to do the same simple task......
I do need to try lime. I might just stick with it for oysters if anything and then keep trying with hot water for the shiitake.
Quote:
Gr0wer said: dude a simple hot water heater element at the bottom of an insulated tank is all you need. A 5500w 220v will heat your water in 8-9 hours. Sounds like a long time but your not sitting there watching it. Get a cheap digital temp controller on it then a heavy relay to maintain around 165F, that's all you need. Fill your tank the night before and let it warm up over night. To run that element for 9 hours it will only cost about $5 in electric. Your also best using that to drain into open top pasteurization tanks that are packed with sub, and a drain at the bottom. Gravity would be your best bet since its free, if you can place the hot water tank up high. You could even pump the water back up into the hot water tank for another batch but you will run into two issues, you will need to filter the water to prevent junk from clogging your pump, and your tank is now a dirty water tank so it will need to be cleaned.
I have no idea how we didn't think of this.. Another problem he told me would just be that the element could melt the 255 tub or that i would ruin the element with the straw/pitchfork...... This is GENIUS! lmaoo and i am retar
I guess now we just need another ~200 gallon [metal] tank that we can attach the element to, and the digital temp controller would help too.
Quote:
Quadman said: I installed 2 tankless water heaters in series. It was for a dairy they needed wash water. The gas savings was substantial. The water was scalding hot. The first pre heated and the second brought it up to temp.
this is also a good idea i was just thinking that one would prob not get hot enough.
damn it really does seem so simple right????
idk why every time i bring it up my boss tells me some dumb long excuse to why everything will not work and crash and burn. The 8-10h warmup is obvious and not a problem ofc i will not be standing there waiting as long as everything is secure. but my boss always has something to say....
i have to tell him again that everyone keeps telling me the same thing he keeps saying wont work for whatever reason..
the double heaters though that sounds pretty good, and it seems instant? boss was about to buy two boilers which would cost ~400 plus all the parts and time to build but that seems way easier and looks like they only cost 180 each
thanks all, really appreciate it.. idk why this [seemingly] simple task is such a problem
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Quadman
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Re: Straw bleach pasteurization? [Re: Dirtygoat]
#23777643 - 10/27/16 05:52 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Those were big instant water heaters , they weren't cheap. I think Rheem ? The other problem was no warranty if not installed by certified installer. For the difference we figured no warranty was the way to go, could almost pay for one with installation cost. I will have to ask but I think 180° water. The hotter you go the slower the flow.They worked great!
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ballsalsa
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Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,876
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Straw bleach pasteurization? [Re: Dirtygoat]
#23778744 - 10/27/16 10:52 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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do you have natural gas available, or electricity only?
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Gr0wer
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Re: Straw bleach pasteurization? [Re: Quadman] 1
#23778956 - 10/28/16 12:32 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Quadman said: I installed 2 tankless water heaters in series. It was for a dairy they needed wash water. The gas savings was substantial. The water was scalding hot. The first pre heated and the second brought it up to temp.
You should have just got a rennai with the commercial heater control, heats to 170-180F. Common craft brewing mod. And yes it will run you about $1400 installed.
On the plastic vessel, I run a 1500w screw in element in my plastic drum, the key is that the element is submerged and dissipating the heat. But yes a SS tank would be best especially with larger elements.

and on the natural gas, 9/10 electric heat is cheaper for small DIY applications like this. For one i can rig a element to a vessel for less than $50 vs gas which can run in the hundreds just for your gas line to be ran, then another $100+- for the burner and stand. And unless you can enclose the flame around the vessel and more efficiently capture the heat 1/2 your heat goes up the exhaust stack or heats the room its in. Submerged heating elements are almost 100% efficient with converting the energy into water temp.
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ballsalsa
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Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,876
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Straw bleach pasteurization? [Re: Gr0wer]
#23780966 - 10/28/16 06:54 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Gr0wer said:
Quote:
Quadman said: I installed 2 tankless water heaters in series. It was for a dairy they needed wash water. The gas savings was substantial. The water was scalding hot. The first pre heated and the second brought it up to temp.
You should have just got a rennai with the commercial heater control, heats to 170-180F. Common craft brewing mod. And yes it will run you about $1400 installed.
On the plastic vessel, I run a 1500w screw in element in my plastic drum, the key is that the element is submerged and dissipating the heat. But yes a SS tank would be best especially with larger elements.

and on the natural gas, 9/10 electric heat is cheaper for small DIY applications like this. For one i can rig a element to a vessel for less than $50 vs gas which can run in the hundreds just for your gas line to be ran, then another $100+- for the burner and stand. And unless you can enclose the flame around the vessel and more efficiently capture the heat 1/2 your heat goes up the exhaust stack or heats the room its in. Submerged heating elements are almost 100% efficient with converting the energy into water temp.
Rinnai is by far my preferred tankless heater. I always try to talk my customers into a Rinnai, or at least a Takagi. Noritz is garbage. Navien is also garbage. Eternal are actually pretty sweet. They used to have a problem with loud starts, but they fixed it by upsizing the exhaust. $1400 installed sounds unrealistic. Those commercial Rinnai units cost about 900. Depending on location (distance from the gas meter), whether you want the gas line exposed, or in the attic, or under the house, or buried. Whether you want steel pipe (black, scotchcoat, or galvi), or PE (if its underground), or Trac flex. Its not unheard of for a tankless install to cost $3500 here in the L.A. area. In fact, when people ask me to ballpark it without looking at it, i always use 3500 as the ballpark. sometimes it can be done for 1400ish if the unit is close to the gas meter, and there is properly sized gas i can get at nearby, and i don't have to cut and patch a lot of big holes in the walls/ceilings.
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drake89
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Re: Straw bleach pasteurization? [Re: ballsalsa]
#23781088 - 10/28/16 07:50 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I concur that electric is great for diy and efficiency but the btus can't compare to gas
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Quadman
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Re: Straw bleach pasteurization? [Re: drake89]
#23781344 - 10/28/16 09:33 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yeah I spoke to my buddy they were Rinnai. He was dumping into uninsulated tank. To get the gpm and keep temp up he needed two units, otherwise water cooled too much. If you had a well insulated tank they would work slick and fast. I installed them for less than $180 labor. Nothing like a bargain.
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Gr0wer
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Re: Straw bleach pasteurization? [Re: drake89]
#23781382 - 10/28/16 09:49 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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BTU's are great but capturing it can always be an issue. When you have a fancy boiler with fins and cross flow to capture 90% of the heat that's great but $$. With my 9kw brew rig i was heating 15 gal of water to strike temp in ~12 min, try that with gas.
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