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Shrms
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My first panaeolus grow - failed?
#23760029 - 10/22/16 05:32 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hello there,
this is my first post in this board but I read and learned a lot here. I growed cubensis successfully several times with PF-tek and casing method.
As the next step I wanted to grow panaelous and ordered a print of panaelous tropicalis.
Here what I did until today:
1: Create birdseed / straw jars as spawn (sterilized with pressure cooker), inoculated with mycelium from agar:
A little bit blueing here but I thought it is normal.
2: I used the birdseed / straw spawn to inoculate my substrate, consisting of fresh horse manure, vermiculite, straw and gypsum (3:1:1:tsp, sterilized in pressure cooker). Growing in my incubator @84° for 3 weeks it looked like this:
Does this look normal?
3: Cased substrate with 1/4 inch of flower soil (mixture of peat/humus and little bit perlite) and vermiculite (2:1, pasteurized) and incubated for 3 days in in my fc (72°F, 99% RH)
I created 4 casings and put them in 2 fruiting chambers
What was a little bit strange for me at this point was the odor of the mycelium, not comparable the the fresh smell of the cubensis mycelium, especially after misting. It smelled a little bit stagnant, like wet wood in the basement. Dont know how to describe better... but this is my first pan case so i thought it is normal, especially after a lot of primordia formed.
4: 5 Days later I saw the first pins and stopped misting and increased temperature to 77° (more is not possible with my setup), RH was reduced to 85-95. This picture is day 2 or 3 after first pin was seen:
5: Another 5 Days later the mushrooms stopped growing and the caps showed some dark spots:
6: One day later (today) it looks like this:
Looks like the caps dry out and turn dark
One Mushroom (the oldest one) in my second fruiting chamber shows the same spots.
The small fruiting chamber is a shotgun fc and I fan 2 times a day, the big fc works with a pc-fan and gets fresh air every 3 hours for 2 minutes.
Can someone tell me what happens here? The 4 casings are in 2 fruiting chambers and were created from substrate of 4 jars + 1 autoclave bag. Is it possible that all of them have the same contamination? It does not look like mold on the cap, it starts to darken from the inside..
Thx and greetz, Shrm
Edited by Shrms (10/23/16 05:16 AM)
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blindingleaf
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Re: My first panaelous grow - failed [Re: Shrms]
#23760057 - 10/22/16 05:55 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Pans have a distinct smell different than cubes.
Its some kind of bacteria I guess. Ur pics are off site and I have an ancient smart phone that goes crack head when i click them so I only looked at two.
The mycelium can bruise (without touch-like in vitro/age) and if the caps get too dry but then misted, even gently, there can be bruising, so it could be that too I just can't really see pics too well.
-------------------- A few thoughts on cultivation MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!! The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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Shrms
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Re: My first panaeolus grow - failed? [Re: Shrms]
#23763260 - 10/23/16 05:36 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Any other opinions on this?
I just removed all mushrooms and pins from both casings in fruiting chamber 1, here are some pictures:
And from the bottom:
I misted the casings very intense and put them back into the fruiting chamber.
General question: How do you proceed after the first flush? When i grow cubensis i usually remove the complete casing layer with a fork and cover the case with a new pasteurized casing layer.
What do you recommend for panaelous? I read different strategies here.
And here are some pictures of my second fruiting chamber, not much but looks a little bit healthier than the other one:
Do you think they are read for harvest and give them a chance for the second flush?
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blindingleaf
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Re: My first panaeolus grow - failed? [Re: Shrms]
#23763274 - 10/23/16 05:46 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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So...same deal withpics dude...try and upload them to this site.
I have never removed a casing at any point on any grow with any species in my life. Seems messy and annoying.
Ur second flush should come rapidly if the tray is healthy and ur conditions are good.
-------------------- A few thoughts on cultivation MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!! The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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Shrms
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Re: My first panaeolus grow - failed? [Re: blindingleaf]
#23763309 - 10/23/16 06:24 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Thanks for your incredible fast answers
I tried to upload directly but there was the limitation of 512 kb per picture and my have 7MB.
But here resized pictures, hope quality is good enough:
Here casing 1+2 in fc1:
The dark spots on the caps come from the inside of the caps, but later they look like pimples meaning they are raised a little bit.
And here fruiting chamber 2 , not harvested yet:
3 mushrooms are missing and i was able to take 3 spore prints successfully - partial success:)
Is it enough to mist the casing to prepare for second flush? I read somewhere that it is also possible to flood the complete case for 12 hours and drain off the remaining water and did it successfully for cubensis.
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blindingleaf
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Re: My first panaeolus grow - failed? [Re: Shrms]
#23763325 - 10/23/16 06:39 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Thanks for uploading them here
There r some weird abort looking caps but the one with the dots I personally think is bruising from misting. Maybe my phone is making it look more blue than it actually is though.
Yea u can mist the casing to rehydrate it. Flooding (we call it dunking just FYI) it can be done but the substrate and casing thickness of cubes is more tolerant of that than pan's might be so I'd stick to a mist bottle or a syringe filled with water
-------------------- A few thoughts on cultivation MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!! The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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enlightenment
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Re: My first panaeolus grow - failed? [Re: blindingleaf]
#23763351 - 10/23/16 06:57 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I would not dunk a pan. casing. As bindingleaf wrote you should just mist it to rehydrate it.
That does not look like bruising to me. It looks like there is growing mold on the fruit body. I haven't seen that before.
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blindingleaf
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Re: My first panaeolus grow - failed? [Re: enlightenment]
#23763373 - 10/23/16 07:14 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yea that's true. When i first saw that one it looked like a dried/shriveled bruised cap but I can see the texture of the mold now that you said that
U think the dots are mold too? I really wishmy laptop was working
I got a pretty good pic of bruising from misting but looking thru my pics on a phone sucks.
-------------------- A few thoughts on cultivation MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!! The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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enlightenment
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Re: My first panaeolus grow - failed? [Re: blindingleaf] 1
#23763418 - 10/23/16 07:36 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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maybe you can see it better now. I am pretty sure that it is mold.
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Shrms
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Re: My first panaeolus grow - failed? [Re: blindingleaf]
#23763471 - 10/23/16 07:58 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I did not mist the casings after I discovered the first pins because i read that misting can cause aborts.
It seems that there are different stages, at the beginning the small dark spots are completely under the "skin" but then they grow and come out.For my beginner eyes it looks like mold, but never saw such a growth. Inside the substrate i cannot detect anything.
Here some more close-ups:
That one is dried (removed it yesterday)and you can clearly see the spots which are greenish. It is also possible to scrape them of with the fingernail:
I think i am going to dispose of that casings and hope that the other 2 do better.. but here i also discovered one flecked which i removed (it is the dried one of the last picture), all other look fine.
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blindingleaf
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Re: My first panaeolus grow - failed? [Re: Shrms]
#23763510 - 10/23/16 08:21 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Ok if u didn't mist after pinning than its mold. I'm glad enlightenment chimed in
-------------------- A few thoughts on cultivation MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!! The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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Shrms
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Re: My first panaeolus grow - failed? [Re: Shrms]
#23763730 - 10/23/16 10:09 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hmm no good news but thanks for enlightenment. I think I dump all casings and have a new try.
Maybe it was the casing layer, I used normal flower soil/vermiculite, since I have no access to peat moss like in USA. I used this type of casing layer for the first time, for all other cubensis grows I used coco coir.
I cooked the soil / vermiculite mixture for about 5 minutes a pot and did not sterilize it in the pressure cooker. Never had problems with this procedure.
What would you recommend for casing layer preparation?
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enlightenment
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Re: My first panaeolus grow - failed? [Re: Shrms]
#23763876 - 10/23/16 10:46 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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It looks like we found the weak point. You should pasteurize the casing layer.
Maybe the casing layer was also too thick and got colonized by mold. Pans are doing well with a thin casing layer.
Edited by enlightenment (10/23/16 10:51 AM)
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Panarchist
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Re: My first panaeolus grow - failed? [Re: Shrms]
#23765058 - 10/23/16 07:01 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shrms said:
2: I used the birdseed / straw spawn to inoculate my substrate, consisting of fresh horse manure, vermiculite, straw and gypsum (3:1:1:tsp, sterilized in pressure cooker). Growing in my incubator @84° for 3 weeks it looked like this:
Does this look normal?
i don't think that looks right at all. your colonized substrate should be nearly as white as the colonized grainspawn. these jars look infected to me. did you combine your spawn with your substrate and then colonize it inside those jars? if so, i would think that would be problematic as well. manure substrates need some space to breathe. they will suffocate being cooped up in a jars like that. most people use trays or a monotub. and if you had them in an actual incubator that will inhibit gas exchange even further. and the use of fresh instead aged horse manure is also something to be avoided.
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noppie
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Re: My first panaeolus grow - failed? [Re: Panarchist]
#23766634 - 10/24/16 12:20 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Why didn't you use coco coir for pans? I'm not expert but I thought it's okay to use coco coir. Am I wrong?
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enlightenment
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Re: My first panaeolus grow - failed? [Re: noppie]
#23766652 - 10/24/16 12:29 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Manure based substrates work good for Panaeolus. I don't grow pans often but I successfully used this tek some time ago.
Coir only would give poor results IMO.
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Shrms
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Re: My first panaeolus grow - failed? [Re: Panarchist]
#23766704 - 10/24/16 12:38 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Panarchist said:
did you combine your spawn with your substrate and then colonize it inside those jars? if so, I would think that would be problematic as well. manure substrates need some space to breathe
Exactly, I formed small pockets inside the substrate and filled in the spawn.
But very good point, i made the jars one day before my 3-week trip to USA so i gave the incubator to my cousin.
He sent me a photo after 9 days:
Looks healthy IMHO at this time.
The jars have been in the closed incubator for 13 more days and after my vacation it looked like on the picture you quoted above. Here some more:
Is it possible that they get infected after colonizing well? Or is the strange appearance a consequence of missing gas exchange?
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noppie
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Re: My first panaeolus grow - failed? [Re: enlightenment]
#23766781 - 10/24/16 01:08 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
enlightenment said: Manure based substrates work good for Panaeolus. I don't grow pans often but I successfully used this tek some time ago.
Coir only would give poor results IMO.
I'm planning to case hpoo/CVG/straw mix. 50% manure based. What you think? Any advice?
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Panarchist
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Re: My first panaeolus grow - failed? [Re: Shrms]
#23766953 - 10/24/16 02:11 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shrms said:
Quote:
Panarchist said:
did you combine your spawn with your substrate and then colonize it inside those jars? if so, I would think that would be problematic as well. manure substrates need some space to breathe
Exactly, I formed small pockets inside the substrate and filled in the spawn.
But very good point, i made the jars one day before my 3-week trip to USA so i gave the incubator to my cousin.
He sent me a photo after 9 days:
Looks healthy IMHO at this time.
The jars have been in the closed incubator for 13 more days and after my vacation it looked like on the picture you quoted above. Here some more:
Is it possible that they get infected after colonizing well? Or is the strange appearance a consequence of missing gas exchange?
yeah, the jar doesn't look too bad at 9 days but the infection must have been fairly well developed at that point and just hadn't fully revealed itself. i think the lack of gas exchange and the fact that you sterilized your substrate are your main problems at that point in the process. i notice that there was discoloration on your spawn too. that could be infection but if you did the agar work correctly that's probably just bruising from being exposed to temperatures that are lower than what the mycelium prefers. try and keep it above 70F/21C for best results and don't put it in incubator you're better off heating the room that it is in. next time around, i think you would do better if you mix your spawn with your substrate and then put that in trays, monotubs will work also but it will require some dialing in to get the optimal conditions. i have been using clear pyrex baking dishes because they are rigid and you can see through them. then just put some aluminum foil over the top that you poke holes in for GE or a resealable bag with holes poked in it will work too. if you use a 1:2 ratio of spawn to substrate you should see full visible colonization in around 7 days. then just give it 3-5 days more for the substrate to consolidate so that it goes into fruiting mode. then you just gotta case it and put in your fruiting chamber.
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Edited by Panarchist (10/24/16 02:13 PM)
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Panarchist
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Re: My first panaeolus grow - failed? [Re: noppie]
#23766969 - 10/24/16 02:14 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
noppie said: I'm planning to case hpoo/CVG/straw mix. 50% manure based. What you think? Any advice?
that should work fine.
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Shrms
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Re: My first panaeolus grow - failed? [Re: Panarchist]
#23767119 - 10/24/16 03:02 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Panarchist said:
yeah, the jar doesn't look too bad at 9 days but the infection must have been fairly well developed at that point and just hadn't fully revealed itself. i think the lack of gas exchange and the fact that you sterilized your substrate are your main problems at that point in the process. i notice that there was discoloration on your spawn too. that could be infection but if you did the agar work correctly that's probably just bruising from being exposed to temperatures that are lower than what the mycelium prefers. try and keep it above 70F/21C for best results and don't put it in incubator you're better off heating the room that it is in.
You are right, there was some blue discoloration in my jars but I thought it is just bruising. Temperature in my incubator was 82° at all time, but I did not open it for gas exchange that often.
Quote:
Panarchist said:
next time around, i think you would do better if you mix your spawn with your substrate and then put that in trays, monotubs will work also but it will require some dialing in to get the optimal conditions. i have been using clear pyrex baking dishes because they are rigid and you can see through them. then just put some aluminum foil over the top that you poke holes in for GE or a resealable bag with holes poked in it will work too. if you use a 1:2 ratio of spawn to substrate you should see full visible colonization in around 7 days. then just give it 3-5 days more for the substrate to consolidate so that it goes into fruiting mode. then you just gotta case it and put in your fruiting chamber
Okay convinced, next time I am going to pasteurize my substrate and mix it together with my spawn as you told me. I have read about this method from time to time, but thought it is easier to start using jars just like my cubensis growings (saw that method working well for pans in some teks).
Which type of spawn would you recommend? For all cubensis cultivation I used rye, but I heard that bird seed works better for panaeolus. Can I also use rye just as well? And what about the straw, is it necessary or can I go without?
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Panarchist
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Re: My first panaeolus grow - failed? [Re: Shrms]
#23767265 - 10/24/16 03:46 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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from what i have seen in other people's grows it seems like most of the grains normally used for cubensis will work fine for panaeolus species. if you are already familiar with using rye it should work just fine but it never hurts to experiment and see what else works. i have been using WBR(whole brown rice) and the pan mycelium seems to like it too. and i can't say for certain if adding straw to your grainspawn would be good or not. i was actually wondering the same thing myself. i would think that it probably wouldn't make much difference but it could be worth trying it out to get a better idea.
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bodhisatta
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Re: My first panaeolus grow - failed? [Re: Panarchist]
#23767560 - 10/24/16 05:16 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21168958
you could use something like this with suitable panaeolus substrate. they're usually inoculated with liquid culture though. because they are spawn and substrate all in one they're hard to colonize with just spores or an agar wedge but it has been done.
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Shrms
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Re: My first panaeolus grow - failed? [Re: Panarchist]
#23769634 - 10/25/16 11:04 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Panarchist said: next time around, i think you would do better if you mix your spawn with your substrate and then put that in trays, monotubs will work also but it will require some dialing in to get the optimal conditions. i have been using clear pyrex baking dishes because they are rigid and you can see through them. then just put some aluminum foil over the top that you poke holes in for GE or a resealable bag with holes poked in it will work too. if you use a 1:2 ratio of spawn to substrate you should see full visible colonization in around 7 days. then just give it 3-5 days more for the substrate to consolidate so that it goes into fruiting mode. then you just gotta case it and put in your fruiting chamber.
Is the method you described called bulking? Does anyone know a tek or tutorial where this method is described a little bit more detailed (for panaelous strains in combination with dung)? Could not find much information on that but I want to try it for the next attempt
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bodhisatta
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Re: My first panaeolus grow - failed? [Re: Shrms]
#23769649 - 10/25/16 11:10 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Links in my signature. The methods for pans are similar to cubensis you use use slightly different substrate.
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Panarchist
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Re: My first panaeolus grow - failed? [Re: Shrms]
#23771840 - 10/25/16 11:10 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shrms said:
Is the method you described called bulking? Does anyone know a tek or tutorial where this method is described a little bit more detailed (for panaelous strains in combination with dung)? Could not find much information on that but I want to try it for the next attempt
if you're putting it in trays i don't think that would be referred to as bulking but i could be wrong. i think the term 'bulk' applies more to monotubs. and the suggestions made in my comment were based on observations from a bunch of different grows so i can't think of one that covers all those aspects completely but this recent growlog gives a good basic reference for this method:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23165991/fpart/all/vc/1
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Shrms
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Re: My first panaeolus grow - failed? [Re: Shrms]
#23793921 - 11/02/16 08:18 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Thanks so far guys
I read a lot in the last days and I am going to try a new one from scratch as described in your links / posts.
I dumped 2 trays (there was no visible sign of contamination in the crumbled substrate) and gave 2 of them a chance for a second flush, just wanted to see whats happening.
I removed the entire casing layer of tray 1, put it into the incubator for 2 days (mycelium recovering) and cased it again. This time with a mix of coco coir / vermiculite. I wanted to see if the casing layer material has any impact on the growing. Especially because I used flower soil (first time ever) which was fertilized and that was maybe a bad idea. The tray is doing well, casing layer is colonized now and hopefully the first pins will show soon.
Tray 2 was misted very intense and put back into the fc. When I came back home from a short trip (4 days later), there was a second flush and the mushrooms looked better than they did on first flush and there were no dark spots on the caps. Some of the fruit bodies growed like a u-turn back to the ground, never saw that before... maybe a lighting problem!?
Unfortunately a contamination developed on the casing layer in the left corner of the tray:
Do I have to dump the complete tray or are the fruit bodies ready for use? When I growed first time in 2009 a lot of people recommended to dump everything because of toxins thay may be in the mushrooms of contaminated trays. Is this also the gold standard in 2016 or are there new perceptions?
Another question, do you think a fruitbody of this flush is worth to clone and start the new grow with this genetics? They are not really tall (tallest about 2 inch). I Have no experience with cloning mushrooms but it seems to be easy.
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Greg
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Re: My first panaeolus grow - failed? [Re: Shrms]
#23794189 - 11/02/16 10:36 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Unless the mold is growing directly on the fruit bodies themselves, pick and eat 'em. I say go for a clone too if you don't mind sacrificing a piece of a mushroom.
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Panarchist
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Re: My first panaeolus grow - failed? [Re: Shrms]
#23795951 - 11/02/16 09:19 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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glad to see your making some progress. the more you learn the better your results will be. next time try to use a casing mix that is non-nutritive. a peat/verm combination seems to work best. in America there is a premade soil called jiffy mix that some use for this purpose. and give your substrate a few days to consolidate then you shouldn't have a problem with the mycelium overlaying the casing layer. and i would think that the bent growth on those fruits is a reaction to the infection rather than a lighting issue. and like Greg said, you fruits should be fine to consume as long as there is no mold growing on them but it may be advisable to make a tea out of them so that the boiling water will neutralize any unseen pathogens that may be present.
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Shrms
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Re: My first panaeolus grows [Re: Panarchist]
#23939716 - 12/19/16 04:53 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hey guys, it is time for some new projects
Thanks for all good support so far. The Shrooms from the last casings were used in a tea as you suggested and wow... it worked damn good
Now after a little more research I have a try at the "Bottle Tek" bodhisatta proposed earlier in this thread and spawning to trays, according this tek (Panarchist's suggestion)
I inoculated the jar 5 days ago with liquid culture of pan. tropicalis. It is a mixture of hpoo, vermiculite, BRF and gypsum with a top layer of pure dry vermiculite. I did only one jar for testing, because it was my first liquid culture syringe ever and I did not want to ruin the hole bunch.
You can see some mycelium growing in the substrate, I wonder how it is doing the next days.
Also I made two trays 5 days ago,WBS spawned to a substrate (1:2) consisting of hpoo,vermiculite,gypsum (tray 1). For tray 2 I added some straw pellets to see if it makes any difference. Both substrates were pasteurized in a bag for one hour.
Tray 1 (hpoo:vermiculite:gypsum, 10:2:0.5)
Tray 2 (hpoo:straw pellets:vermiculite:gypsum, 10:3:2:0.5)
The trays were in the incubator (80°) for 5 days now, what do you think of the progress? The surface is looking a little bit dry to me, but on the sides and bottom there are plenty of water drops, also the aluminum foil is little bit moist. Do I have to mist or just wait until full colonization and apply the casing layer?
Overall it looks good to me, I think normally trays need about 10 days for colonization, at half time 50% are colonized here.
Edited by Shrms (12/19/16 10:07 AM)
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Shrms
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Registered: 06/18/16
Posts: 42
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
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Re: My first panaeolus attempts [Re: Shrms]
#23942953 - 12/20/16 10:20 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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No opinions about this
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Panarchist
Cyanescendant
Registered: 04/02/16
Posts: 432
Loc: Copeland
Last seen: 10 months, 2 days
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Re: My first panaeolus attempts [Re: Shrms]
#23946087 - 12/21/16 01:04 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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hey, sorry about the delayed response. been too busy lately with the holidays. you seem to be on track with your methods. nothing i see personally looks like it really needs changing. that mycelium just doesn't look right though. it seems to be colonizing alright but that color is not how it should look. if it doesn't smell bad you might as well keep letting it do it's thing but be vigilant you may have some infection taking hold. if there's moisture on the foil i would think your hydration levels are alright so you shouldn't need to mist until you add the casing layer and then just enough to get it moist but not oversaturated and that should be enough to get you through a first flush. and i've seen conflicting opinions on whether it's best to case and fruit at full colonization or let it consolidate for a few days first so i can't say what works best so just be aware of your options and do what makes the most sense to you and see how it turns out.
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The Mycologist
Explorer
Registered: 05/06/16
Posts: 3,024
Last seen: 1 month, 7 days
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Re: My first panaeolus grow - failed? [Re: Greg]
#23946099 - 12/21/16 01:08 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
enlightenment said:
maybe you can see it better now. I am pretty sure that it is mold.
ahhhhh, greg I guess you missed this
-------------------- "That you are here—that life exists, and identity; That the powerful play goes on, and you will contribute a verse.” ― Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass
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