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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Stuck Between Science and Spirituality [Re: sprinkles]
    #23757932 - 10/21/16 12:30 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

It is indeed better to be safe than sorry and that is why we should all work diligently on both our material preparations for the coming tribulations and also the salvation of our immortal Souls in preparation for the transition to infinity and eternity.

:bowdown: :om: :god: :allah:


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InvisibleLeviticus969
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Re: Stuck Between Science and Spirituality [Re: Moonshoe]
    #23758045 - 10/21/16 01:13 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Science and the reason anything exists is because of the Creator. Science can be used for good but mostly nowadays it's used for evil. Controlling the masses, surveillance, weapons of war, hiding the truth from the populace, making stupid drugs that numb people and mask their symptoms yet don't fix the cause, etc.

Science in itself is a religion that takes faith.... And many scientist used lab rats to study human behavior... If you wanna believe you're on the same level as rats and monkeys then....

Anyways, I was just watching this video last night... Pretty cool.



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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Stuck Between Science and Spirituality [Re: sprinkles] * 1
    #23758161 - 10/21/16 02:03 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Ever read the greeks?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physis

Find a static point, which you write and ascribe to, and a stream you dip into for particular observations. All science begins with the relation and variations and principles of being and becoming, and like the greeks show. Both science and pre-science/protoscience studies "nature", with the implicit meaning of that term somewhat varying. Western science is naturally pretty rigorous in its conception but there are terms that precede the particular slant of a disciplined scientist, that can be taken from, in more general ways.

Observation and consistency of approach can be considered the terms of meditation. That doesn't mean you are going to be coming to people with your data, looking for validation, that way as a rule, but you can more or less do the same thing as scientists proceeding to work between flow of things and staticity, (being and becoming, arising and ceasing.)

Sometimes you have to break down the principles, that are too formalized, and as long as you don't get confused by what your intentions are, it can be perfectly alright. Don't look to authority, look to experience. That is what all ways of seeking say. So meditation can be to you scientific, without the particularly externalized need to confirm or validate. You can find that consistently inwardly, in the directness of again, being and becoming, and arising and ceasing.

Yoic practice, is sometimes called "science" when it comes to translation into western values. For example, "right knowledge", or pramana in the Yoga Sutras, can concern a pretty inticrate system of knowledge, based on logic, and beginning with observation, and including reliable testament, but it is considered a fluctuation (a mind state), among priorities that go beyond knowledge. Yogas-Citta-Vrtti-Nirodha - yoga is cessation of the fluctuations of the mind. Though there is integrity, it is going to be a little different than the modern western procedure, which finds truth, static representation as things everyone can see, and confirm, that latter point being spelled out. Pramana is considered in the yoga sutras, a fluctuating mind state, if a "non-detrimental" one. It is not the basis, or not the static point, for yoga in other words, whereas knowledge in a particular conception, is basic to western science.

You can read about pramana in the first 10 or so of Patanjali's yoga sutras. There are better and worse translations. But maybe the system may help you learn to classify and understand and it may help you ground the priorities of meditative practice and a study of consciousness that both precedes representationalism, and goes beyond it.

Hope that maybe this information is useful. Try a google search for "pramana".


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Stuck Between Science and Spirituality [Re: Lucis]
    #23758355 - 10/21/16 03:28 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

what is the danger of science?

check this out:
Quote:


"The main point of Laing's attack was that science, as it is practiced today, has no way of dealing with consciousness, or with experience, values, ethics, or anything referring to quality. "This situation derives from something that happened in European consciousness at the time of Galileo and Giordano Bruno", Laing began his argument. "These two men epitomize two paradigms - Bruno, who was tortured and burned for saying that there were infinite worlds; and Galileo, who said that the scientific method was to study this world as if there were no consciousness and no living creatures in it. Galileo made the statement that only quantifiable phenomena were admitted to the domain of science. Galileo said: "Whatever cannot be measured and quantified is not scientific"; and in post-Galilean science this came to mean: "What cannot be measured and  quantified is not real."  This has been the most profound corruption from the Greek view of nature as physis, which is alive, always in transformation, and not divorced from us. Galileo's programme offers us a dead world: Out go sight, sound, taste, touch, and smell, and along with them have since gone esthetic and ethical sensibility, values, quality, soul, consciousness, spirit. Experience as such is cast out of the realm of scientific discourse. Hardly anything has changed our world more during the past four hundred years than Galileo's audacious program. We had to destroy the world in theory before we could destroy it in practice."
(Uncommon Wisdom: Conversations with remarkable people, Fritjof Capra, page 139)




How true is this?! Today also there is great worry and confusion about 'consciousness' in science, eg physics, and neuroscience etc ('spirit' is taboo).

Experience is devalued. But our essential being is experience

what is the danger of spirituality?

When 'invisible' ideas, mythical characters, gods, spirits are literalized. We can see in history that when they are is when terrible things will happen---sacrifice of animals, humans. Sacrifice of parts of ones own body, even mutilation of babies and children, as is the case in Judaism with 'circumcision'


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Stuck Between Science and Spirituality [Re: zzripz]
    #23758372 - 10/21/16 03:35 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

What matters is state of consciousness. 

Spirituality is the experience of an elevated state of consciousness.

Science can offer us methods of achieving elevated states of consciousness  (drugs, biofeedback etc ) and it can validate existing spiritual methods of attaining elevated states of consciousness  (the science proving the benefits of yoga and meditation).

Science as knowledge can never replace the direct experience of elevated states of consciousness.

The cultivation and experiencing of those states is what we call spirituality.

A lifetime of studying and practicing science can never equal or replace  a single moment of spiritual experience, any more then a lifetime of studying sexuality can ever equal a single moment of making love.


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Edited by Moonshoe (10/21/16 04:25 PM)


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Invisible100_the_cat
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Re: Stuck Between Science and Spirituality [Re: Moonshoe]
    #23758440 - 10/21/16 04:04 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Science and spirituality are viewing reality through different cognitive functions (or combinations of functions)

If you're a Te type, you're gonna be a science person

If you're a Ti type, you're gonna be a pseudoscience person

Spiritual experiences themselves are an intuition thing (Ni: mystical experience, I guess Ne would be stuff that happens outside you like seeing ghosts in your environment)

You can't use science to debunk pseudoscience, that's like debunking English with Chinese. They're different cognitive territories that can't communicate with each other. Pseudoscience doesn't give a shit about proof because it's subjective to begin with and has no problem with that

You can't use pseudoscience to "prove" anything objectively, because objective proof only matters ("exists") in Te land

You can't use either thinking function to experience the supernatural

I'm a Ti person who happily left science behind


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Stuck Between Science and Spirituality [Re: 100_the_cat]
    #23758507 - 10/21/16 04:33 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

What is the origin of these types you are describing ?

Like what psychometric system are you referring to ?

Also, let not confuse pseudoscience with spirituality.

Pseudoscience refers to false science, scientific sounding ideas that don't stand up to scrutiny.

Spirituality on the other hand is something essential to the human condition having to do with the experience of transcendent states of consciousness.


It doesn't need to, and usually doesn't try to, pass as science, and science generally verifies it benefits.

Examples of Pseudoscience include phrenology, orgone energy and Dr. Emoto's water crystallization studies.

Examples of spirituality include yoga, meditation and astral projection.


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Offlinesprinkles
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Re: Stuck Between Science and Spirituality [Re: Moonshoe]
    #23758513 - 10/21/16 04:36 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

yeah but you cant take any material possessions with you.


which leads me to say i just discovered that no where in the bible does the word rapture appear.  It makes it really REALLY hard to believe in truth when people claim and say something is truth only to find out later they were lying.  WTF.  words may as well not have meaning anymore. 

plus also PPL=SHT


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Stuck Between Science and Spirituality [Re: sprinkles] * 1
    #23758605 - 10/21/16 05:05 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

The vast majority of what you have been taught about Christianity or the bible is not biblical.

Mainstream Christianity as commonly understood has very little relation to what is actually in the bible.

This situation persists because very few Christians ever read any of the bible, much less the whole thing.

If you want to understand Christianity, try to forget everything you have ever been taught or think you know because most of that is lies or mistakes inherited from other people who were lied to or mistaken.

Then, read the bible.

Even then you will still be mislead by dishonest translations.

For example, the idea of hell is a lie.

In the bible where the word hell appears, it is a translation of one of three words (Sheol, Hades or Gehenna) and none of those words means what people think of as hell.

Hell as a place of eternal torture for sinners and non believers is an absolute fabrication and a blasphemous lie.

Most of the occurrences of hell in the bible are translations of Hades or Sheol, both of which refer to a generic land of the dead where all dead people go regardless of religion, belief or moral conduct.

These words refer to an afterlife where all dead people go , good or bad. 

Hades / Sheol are in no way places of torture or torment.

In a few places the word translated as hell is Gehenna.

Gehenna is also not a place of eternal torture. Instead Gehenna means purgatory, a place where some people must experience temporary suffering to cleanse their misdeeds.

The conventional "Christian" idea of hell as a fiery place of Neverending torture for anyone who doesn't accept Christ as their savior is an absolute blasphemous lie.

This is just one example of how virtually everything most people think of as Christianity is completely invalid from a scriptural perspective, and also an example of how much manipulation and misunderstanding there is in Christian doctrine.

This is why you must not accept what you have been told as truth but instead do your own research and question everything.

Don't listen to pastors or preachers, read the bible yourself, and also educate yourself on the history of how the bible has been edited and manipulated for political reasons, particularly during the council of Nicea.

Be aware that many books of the bible were cut out during that period and that those "apocryphal" works may be much closer to the truth than what was left in.


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InvisibleLeviticus969
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Re: Stuck Between Science and Spirituality [Re: Moonshoe]
    #23758847 - 10/21/16 06:47 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
The vast majority of what you have been taught about Christianity or the bible is not biblical.

Mainstream Christianity as commonly understood has very little relation to what is actually in the bible.

This situation persists because very few Christians ever read any of the bible, much less the whole thing.

If you want to understand Christianity, try to forget everything you have ever been taught or think you know because most of that is lies or mistakes inherited from other people who were lied to or mistaken.

Then, read the bible.

Even then you will still be mislead by dishonest translations.

For example, the idea of hell is a lie.

In the bible where the word hell appears, it is a translation of one of three words (Sheol, Hades or Gehenna) and none of those words means what people think of as hell.

Hell as a place of eternal torture for sinners and non believers is an absolute fabrication and a blasphemous lie.

Most of the occurrences of hell in the bible are translations of Hades or Sheol, both of which refer to a generic land of the dead where all dead people go regardless of religion, belief or moral conduct.

These words refer to an afterlife where all dead people go , good or bad. 

Hades / Sheol are in no way places of torture or torment.

In a few places the word translated as hell is Gehenna.

Gehenna is also not a place of eternal torture. Instead Gehenna means purgatory, a place where some people must experience temporary suffering to cleanse their misdeeds.

The conventional "Christian" idea of hell as a fiery place of Neverending torture for anyone who doesn't accept Christ as their savior is an absolute blasphemous lie.

This is just one example of how virtually everything most people think of as Christianity is completely invalid from a scriptural perspective, and also an example of how much manipulation and misunderstanding there is in Christian doctrine.

This is why you must not accept what you have been told as truth but instead do your own research and question everything.

Don't listen to pastors or preachers, read the bible yourself, and also educate yourself on the history of how the bible has been edited and manipulated for political reasons, particularly during the council of Nicea.

Be aware that many books of the bible were cut out during that period and that those "apocryphal" works may be much closer to the truth than what was left in.




Truth :thatsinteresting:


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Offlinesprinkles
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Re: Stuck Between Science and Spirituality [Re: Moonshoe]
    #23759789 - 10/22/16 01:27 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

That is not what Jesus said about hell, and he talks about hell a lot.  I know hades isnt hell tho.  Have you read the bible?  I'm doing it now and have been for weeks.  There's a lot of things so far that dont make sense and arent what people have been saying, and it angers me because I want to know the truth, and people who quote scripture start filling in blanks and making up shit or outright lying just really piss me off.  I think most of these preachers do it for profit.  shaaaaaame


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Stuck Between Science and Spirituality [Re: sprinkles]
    #23760599 - 10/22/16 11:03 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Yes , I have been reading the bible all my life, and have read it in its entirety from cover to cover, word for word.


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OfflineLucisM
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Re: Stuck Between Science and Spirituality [Re: Moonshoe] * 1
    #23761008 - 10/22/16 01:44 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sprinkles said:
deepak chopra will put it all together for you.




I have a dilemma, I don't want to immerse myself in any spiritual text to deeply, even though I know the Buddhist literature I have been reading recently is wonderful, I want to experience God on my own, without to many outsides influences.  I just feel like if God is some great thing, then why cant I write my own spiritual text in my soul?  Why must I rely on the other people to help clarify things for me, if God is great, then God will have to come and talk to me on its own, and show me it loves me, and should have no problem talking to me without the middleman.

I feel like this is why many religious people feel debased after having followed a faith for numerous years, with no real change being evident, because they chose to form their relationship with the deity they served through a middleman (pastor, shaman, holy man), rather than demand the most high to talk with them in person.  Mother Teresa said she felt like God wasn't listening after devoting her life to her version of deity, when you read about stuff like that it makes you wonder that either A. This is all a huge pile of rubish, or B. they approached the subject wrong, I favor option B, because I have experienced enough strange things to know that there's something going on with spirituality.

If I have kids I don't tell one of them to form a relationship with me through their older sibling, that would be wrong, I should show that child that I am there for it by having a one on one relationship with it, this forms a proper bond and trust, which is paramount to proper relationships.

Is it so much to ask the same of God? To want that one on one relationship in such an intimate way?  To not want a middleman to help me figure things out?  I am your son, your creation, here I am, you're my mother, my father, my all, so answer me, I demand it because I would do anything I had to do to change my life to your love, I am willing, I am able, I am humble, speak to me.  I get angry and feel like it's not in a negative way, but in a proper way, because I feel like God has made promises, and promises are meant to be kept, so I am only asking for fulfillment on my end, and if I need to change some things, which I am human so am sure I will be changing some things my whole life in order to continue growing, then I will change them. 

I can have patience, because some lessons are only learned through patiently waiting, and thinking about the issues at hand, but don't forget I am human, and will doubt from time to time, but I think getting through those periods of doubt, strengthen the bond between God and myself.






Quote:

Moonshoe said:
Also "spirit science" is an interesting and entertaining YouTube series. You might want to check it out.





Spirit science is not for me, I have seen some of those vids years ago, and there's some truth in there, but overall I just don't vibe well with some of what is said.  I think like you said MS, that I am bit more grounded than that, maybe not though, I don't know what I would call myself, eccentric mystic perhaps.




Quote:

Moonshoe said:
But I would suggest starting by reading the Dhammapadda, the Tao Teh Ching, the Emerald Tablet of Hermes Trismegistus, the Kybalion, and the Bhagavad Gita.





I am familiar with The Emerald Tablets of Thoth, but the others I have only flirted with briefly.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Stuck Between Science and Spirituality [Re: Lucis]
    #23761232 - 10/22/16 03:12 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I really recommend you don't bother with any Reading and instead just focus that time and energy on actually meditating.

All you need to do is sit down cross legged, straight back, eyes closed and focus all your attention on your inhalation through the nose then exhale through the mouth focusing all your attention on the exhalation .

It's that simple. You just focus all your attention on your breathing.

In through the mouth, out through the nose.

That's it!

And if you maintain this practice with discipline you will attain enlightenment.

Every hour spent on reading is infinitely better spent on practice.

You could read the best spiritual books for your entire life and never attain enlightenment.


It's like this - imagine spending years reading every book about weightlifting.  At the end of those years of reading you won't be able to lift a single pound more than you could before you started.

If a good book takes ten hours to read, that's ten hours better spent meditating.


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InvisibleLeviticus969
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Re: Stuck Between Science and Spirituality [Re: Lucis]
    #23761268 - 10/22/16 03:29 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I have a dilemma, I don't want to immerse myself in any spiritual text to deeply, even though I know the Buddhist literature I have been reading recently is wonderful, I want to experience God on my own, without to many outsides influences.  I just feel like if God is some great thing, then why cant I write my own spiritual text in my soul?  Why must I rely on the other people to help clarify things for me, if God is great, then God will have to come and talk to me on its own, and show me it loves me, and should have no problem talking to me without the middleman.

I feel like this is why many religious people feel debased after having followed a faith for numerous years, with no real change being evident, because they chose to form their relationship with the deity they served through a middleman (pastor, shaman, holy man), rather than demand the most high to talk with them in person.  Mother Teresa said she felt like God wasn't listening after devoting her life to her version of deity, when you read about stuff like that it makes you wonder that either A. This is all a huge pile of rubish, or B. they approached the subject wrong, I favor option B, because I have experienced enough strange things to know that there's something going on with spirituality.

If I have kids I don't tell one of them to form a relationship with me through their older sibling, that would be wrong, I should show that child that I am there for it by having a one on one relationship with it, this forms a proper bond and trust, which is paramount to proper relationships.

Is it so much to ask the same of God? To want that one on one relationship in such an intimate way?  To not want a middleman to help me figure things out?  I am your son, your creation, here I am, you're my mother, my father, my all, so answer me, I demand it because I would do anything I had to do to change my life to your love, I am willing, I am able, I am humble, speak to me.  I get angry and feel like it's not in a negative way, but in a proper way, because I feel like God has made promises, and promises are meant to be kept, so I am only asking for fulfillment on my end, and if I need to change some things, which I am human so am sure I will be changing some things my whole life in order to continue growing, then I will change them.

I can have patience, because some lessons are only learned through patiently waiting, and thinking about the issues at hand, but don't forget I am human, and will doubt from time to time, but I think getting through those periods of doubt, strengthen the bond between God and myself.






Yeah I used to be the same as you. Not wanting any outside influences to determine my beliefs. And it's totally possible as long as you have a good judge of character. This could be extremely hard to do though when you're constantly bombarded with information through the media, internet, music, movies, etc. on top of that you don't know who's agenda you're actually believing. Yes, there's a hidden agenda that wants you to think a certain way to enslave the masses. Many people fall victim to this. Most movies are based off of either the new or old testament. You probably don't know it but you're being taught religion in movies.

Anyways, as far as reading the texts. I find that if whatever I'm reading sounds rubbish than I just read it for fun but if I find it useful than I'll absorb it into my daily life.
You need the experience in order to accept or deny scripture. Also, I've come across quite a few people who have had different interpretations and beliefs according to their readings so you see it all comes down to the individual.

Personally, I wish I would've read the bible a long long time ago when my grandma told me to. It would've saved me a lot of confusion, energy, and grief.


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Offlinesprinkles
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Re: Stuck Between Science and Spirituality [Re: Lucis]
    #23762625 - 10/22/16 10:48 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

God speaks more than anyone you now.  Its up to people to listen.  He gave us two ears and one mouth for a reason, we need to listen twice as much as we speak.


as far as the middleman goes, you cant learn without experiencing.  Our conscious mind is only made of things that have been repeated to us.  That is knowing.

Unless it is infused knowledge the way we learn things is through the experiences of others and ourselves.  To not listen to others thoughts or opinions would limit us only to learning through our own experiences, and that would make for some very VERY hard lessons and evolution would be extremely slow.  BTW that's what mentors are for.  I will accept learning in any form it comes, any way I can get it.  I dont care through what means.


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OfflineLucisM
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Re: Stuck Between Science and Spirituality [Re: sprinkles]
    #23762805 - 10/22/16 11:42 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sprinkles said:
To not listen to others thoughts or opinions would limit us only to learning through our own experiences





I am asking for God to be my mentor, not some earthly being, that might be stupid, but I demand it.

I never said I completely abstain from reading spiritual text, or not listen to others opinions on such matters, I have learned a good bit from some of the members that post here, and in the regular world I am always trying to talk to people about spiritual matters to see if there's something there I need to hear, and then apply to my life.

If God is present in all life, then I should be able to gain the same insight the texts offers, just from interacting with all of God's creation, verse is written in the fabric of our being, I think people looking outside of themselves for the text, rather than inside themselves, create confusion in the mind.

We have a more intimate relationship with God then we realize.  We have lost this connection because of there being so many outside sources stimulating us, all we have to do is have reverence for nature, love towards all living things on this planet, and the answers will come forth from creation, because the lessons which are written in our beings, are written in ever living thing.



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Edited by Lucis (10/23/16 12:11 AM)


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Invisiblelittlespider
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Re: Stuck Between Science and Spirituality [Re: Moonshoe]
    #23762868 - 10/23/16 12:06 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
Deepak Chopra is great as far as I am concerned.

But I would suggest starting by reading the Dhammapadda, the Tao Teh Ching, the Emerald Tablet of Hermes Trismegistus, the Kybalion, and the Bhagavad Gita.



Some Fritjof Capra first
Oh zzripz bet me to it :smile:
David Bohm is worth a look too


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Edited by littlespider (10/23/16 12:15 AM)


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Stuck Between Science and Spirituality [Re: Lucis]
    #23763303 - 10/23/16 06:18 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

change 'God' to Goddess

don't take either literally as they are metaphors. But understand critically what each myth/story is saying and how they're radically different from each other, and what this means for our sense of reality

IE the 'God' myth is coming from a solar myth which identifies 'God' with light and 'darkness' with threat, ignorance, and even evil
Obviously 'solar' means sun. And it can be seen that when the metaphor of sun is taken literally for 'God' then there happened/s a duality between light and dark, and light is associated with the masculine and 'God' and 'spirit' and darkness is associated with the feminine, and the physical body, emotions, and nature

But when the mythos is lunar based, lunar meaning Moon, we can see that unlike the sum, when moon is used as metaphor there is BOTh dark and light in playful every changing dynamic. And thus there is no dualistic confrontation between darkness and light, but rather intelligent awareness that light and dark always are together, and you cannot not only NOT have one without the other, you cannot know one without the other

Example see this what is being typed as 'dark' and the ground it's being typed on as 'light'. Say that the ground was dark, how you could you read the words, and understand the meaning of what's being said. Or say the text was as light as the background, could you read it?

Yet in the 'God' myths they promise you to get rid of darkness, and 'evil' and 'death' for ever and ever and ever. Which is of course absurd and makes no sense

This doesn't mean evil is good and should continue, but rather that when dynamic reality, and nature, is not understood is when the dualistic mindset wants never-ending war with itself which causes the destruction of everything! This is what I am seeing happening in the world.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Registered: 05/28/04
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Re: Stuck Between Science and Spirituality [Re: zzripz]
    #23763559 - 10/23/16 08:44 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Very well said , I never thought of that before.


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