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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineBrian Jones
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Putin pledges to violate missile treaty
    #23754617 - 10/20/16 11:47 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Vladimir Putin has pledged to violate the missile treaty signed by Ronald Reagan and Machail Gorbachev that limits each side to a specified number of ground based nuclear missiles designed to travel 300 to 3400 miles.

What should our response be? Economic sanctions have not swayed him.


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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflineCrumist
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Re: Putin pledges to violate missile treaty [Re: Brian Jones] * 2
    #23755935 - 10/20/16 07:51 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Have you got a link? My heart and stomach are to the floor trying to sift through "Putin" and "disarmament" hits.

I see 2 possibilities:
1. I can not be objective thanks to the new Russophobic prism that has been applied to all English media. Russia is only trying to play catch up with a very sinister United States. Renewed Cold War begins with me bleating like a sheep.
2. Russia under Putin is deliberately antagonizing the United States and global stability in general. The global community (most importantly China) will stand together and sanction Putin out of power to be replaced by some harmless puppet.


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'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Putin pledges to violate missile treaty [Re: Crumist]
    #23756845 - 10/21/16 02:50 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Embarrassingly, I never learned how to do links, and when I asked people they just say" do this, but I need the "for Dummies" step by step version, and my computer is rather fucked up. At any rate, it's the same as always; Just google the key words and you will be right there.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Putin pledges to violate missile treaty [Re: Brian Jones]
    #23756937 - 10/21/16 04:00 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Politically, I don't think we a want a confrontation with Putin but given his temperament, I don't think anything less than a strength against strength  showdown will influence him. The Russian people want a strong boss (as crazy as it sounds many of them are yearning for Stalin) They lived like shit but they were one of the 2 World superpowers and they miss that feeling of being hot shit. Both sides hoped that Capitalist (free???) Russia would be a huge improvement. The reality was not so much. They don't want to admit weakness, and we don't want to admit our 50 year nation building exercise was a failure. Reagan et al thought if they tear down that wall, everyone will be eating happy meals. Nope.

    So after the Russian people get rid of Gorbachev and Yeltsyn they go right back to a strong boss KGB thug, And Putin will be there forever, whether through real or fake elections. When he's gone there will be another one, unless they have a revolution.

    It doesn't have to be bloody. They did it before.  USSR elected Androp (reformer), but he died pretty quickly (hopefully natural causes), and then Cherenynko who was a step back, but he was an older man. I remember telling my students that despite this step back I thought the USSR was going to reform. For once I was right, and later Gorbachev was elected. And every one thought this was fucking great. But it didn't last, and the miracle economy never emerged. So it was a gangster economy run by ex- KGB and other younger gangsters. And old Russian officers selling all the plutonium on the "free" market from all the far off bases.

    I digress, but don't expect Putin to just back off.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin pledges to violate missile treaty [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #23772082 - 10/26/16 01:06 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Vladimir Putin has pledged to violate the missile treaty signed by Ronald Reagan and Machail Gorbachev that limits each side to a specified number of ground based nuclear missiles designed to travel 300 to 3400 miles.

What should our response be?



Or maybe the question should be what caused this response from Putin?

Vladimir Putin warns Americans are in 'impending and grave danger'

Quote:

VLADIMIR Putin has warned "we are in grave danger" as he accused the United States of lying over its nuclear capabilities and revealed Russia continues to develop new generation warfare.

The Russian president issued the chilling warning to a group of journalists as he attempted to explain the reasons behind his country’s actions in recent months.

He said: “Major global conflicts have been avoided in the past few decades, due to the geostrategic balance of power, which used to exist.

“The two super-nuclear powers essentially agreed to stop producing both offensive weaponry, as well as defensive weaponry.

Mr Putin revealed how Russia has gone on to develop new weapons in response to continuing American developments.

He accused the US of rejecting Russian deals to cease weapon production and insists Russia can pinpoint when the US will build a new missile that will directly threaten his country.

Mr Putin said: “We told them about the reactionary measures we were going to take. And this is what we did. And I assure you - that today, we have had every success in that area.

“No matter what we said to our American partners to curb the production of weaponry they refused to cooperate with us, they rejected out offers, and continue to do their own thing.




:shrug:


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineCrumist
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Re: Putin pledges to violate missile treaty [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #23774236 - 10/26/16 06:28 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Disarmament has been the word on the street for the past 2 decades, it really sucks to see the winds changing. And I agree that there is value at looking at Putin's reasoning for this action. That the US has been unilaterally striking down Russian proposals for disarmament is at least as large a load of bullshit as US's proposed missile defense base in Poland "aimed at Iran"


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'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704


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InvisiblePatrickKn
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Re: Putin pledges to violate missile treaty [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #23775059 - 10/26/16 10:34 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Economic sanctions have not swayed him.



Economic sanctions don't sway countries with resources. They empower them.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Putin pledges to violate missile treaty [Re: PatrickKn]
    #23775533 - 10/27/16 02:45 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Putin just chickened out on refueling his fleet at Spain, on their way to Syria, because there was a major U.S. (or maybe NATO IDK) presence in the region.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflineShroom_Goddess
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Re: Putin pledges to violate missile treaty [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #23775799 - 10/27/16 07:35 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Dude Putin is one of the strongest, smartest, most strategic world leaders of this day if not #1


--------------------
-Its 1984 in 2016-
Hunter was right.. The American Dream is dead.


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OfflineCrumist
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Re: Putin pledges to violate missile treaty [Re: PatrickKn]
    #23776033 - 10/27/16 09:34 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Sanctions nearly destroyed Putin, but we backed off. They need to be re-applied. Russia is guilty of crimes against humanity; and no, they really aren't comparable to the actions of the United States until you go back to VietNam


--------------------
'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Putin pledges to violate missile treaty [Re: Crumist]
    #23776249 - 10/27/16 10:36 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Crumist said:
Sanctions nearly destroyed Putin, but we backed off. They need to be re-applied.



I hadn't heard we lifted any sanctions.  I also hadn't heard sanctions nearly destroyed Putin.  Do you have a link?

Russia countered with their own sanctions that is hurting European business, who once had a huge market in Russia.  Now Russians are being forced to produce their own goods, which is helping put their people to work.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisiblePatrickKn
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Re: Putin pledges to violate missile treaty [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #23776779 - 10/27/16 01:31 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Putin rearmed and remilitarized Russia while under sanctions, and it's not as if he was going anywhere had the sanctions been completely successful.

If you think sanctions are a feasible deterrent to aggressive actions, it is not in Russia's case and largely never has been.

You can sanction an island if the island has no other source of resources afterwards. Sanctioning a country like Russia only ensures it's self sufficiently down the road, and Russia already has a history of large scale warfare without heavy reliance on international trade. Russia is one of the countries most capable of resisting sanctions from the West and it's arguably cemented Putin's position in the past couple years.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Putin pledges to violate missile treaty [Re: PatrickKn]
    #23779173 - 10/28/16 04:23 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

This is the question that I don't know the answer to. Would sanctions put more coercion on Russia or the EU. Russia is big and has resources, but the EU combined is big and has resource. I don't know how it works with the member states, and who has resources, and how compensation works. The EU is probably a more complicated collective than we have ever tried to analyze.

      I have said before that sanctions don't seem to work against Putin; maybe they aren't economically coercive, or maybe it's his political personality. I have said before that this guy doesn't back down unless there is a gun in his face.  Putin is old school USSR/KGB. I think that means he would never initiate an ICBM attack against the U.S. Those guys were ruthless, but they weren't irrational (unlike the Islamic militant crazies). So I'm thinking  our commanders will push him to certain extent, but they don't won't to get in a repeated push and shove, that could escalate from tactical to strategic.

      The USSR has one aircraft carrier, that is in constant need of repair, so it seems like they are more geared up for local action, not international.

      This might be meaningless, but another strategic concern. Sweden and Russia have a lot of icebreakers. We have  one, it's 40-50 years old, and we have no plans to build another. There is no way of knowing but Sweden tends toward semi-neutrality. If you're that close to Russia it makes sense. Finland went belly-up long ago and the USSR let them have social freedom but the USSR could operate their military units at will there. Finlandization drove Reagan crazy but he never did shit about it.

    The point I'm making is that, whenever or whatever the importance is, (probably oil or minerals) Russia will control the Arctic, and we ceded it to them, at least physically.  Maybe we think our airpower could knock them out. I'm no expert on military matters.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflineShroom_Goddess
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Re: Putin pledges to violate missile treaty [Re: Brian Jones]
    #23781854 - 10/29/16 05:23 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Russophobia spun by false Western media


--------------------
-Its 1984 in 2016-
Hunter was right.. The American Dream is dead.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Putin pledges to violate missile treaty [Re: Shroom_Goddess]
    #23781897 - 10/29/16 06:24 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

well sprout a brainstem miss 137 posts. I'm not saying he's worse, than ours. The naivete of people on here  reeks of I just got through junior high and highschool. he has the  capalities to blow up the earth 500 to 1000 times. he mosly dodn't want but to I wouldn't push him and we have  to  him deal with or else.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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