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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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World War II is NOT the reason US Debt/GDP went down * 1
    #23748827 - 10/18/16 12:38 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I don't want to derail another thread that is about Universal Basic Income, so I'm transferring the discussion to this new thread.  Here is where the argument left off:

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

night_shift said:
Dude. The current USA debt is how many trillions? I can't even be bothered to wonder about this stuff any more. I mean, to me anybody who thinks this amount of debt can and will be cleared is delusional



We've reduced this level of debt before:



How did we do it?  We raised taxes on the rich.  Easy peasy if we can convince voters like qman and peyote to agree to restoring former tax rates that worked on the super rich.




"How did we do it?"

We won the largest war in human history, do you see another world war with the US being the last man standing?




Qman (or anyone else) - please tell us how winning a war got us out of debt.  I think you'll soon see how wrong that is as we discuss it...


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineqman
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Re: World War II is NOT the reason US Debt/GDP went down [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23749018 - 10/18/16 01:50 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Why would you deny the changes that took place post WW2 created an incredible economic boom?  No one makes that argument.

Hiking tax rates was NOT the main reason the US paid down the debt, economic growth, inflation and social change did that task.

There was pent-up demand that was building for years, we don't have that issue today.  There was massive infrastructure building that needed to take place, we don't have that issue today.

A large amount of the debt is held outside of the US today, that wasn't the case post WW2.


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OfflineCrumist
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Re: World War II is NOT the reason US Debt/GDP went down [Re: qman]
    #23749044 - 10/18/16 01:58 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

The second world war was a *factor* in the reduction of debt/GDP. So was the return on all that deficit spending throughout the 30s up until mobilization. Falcon, you must admit that the global destruction wrought by WWII was pretty beneficial for US businesses, especially agriculture and basic industry. The wartime economy was readily retooled from making tanks to steel to rebuild scorched central Europe.

BTW, I think debt/GDP is a strange variable to discuss. Why not separate the two?


--------------------
'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: World War II is NOT the reason US Debt/GDP went down [Re: qman] * 2
    #23749088 - 10/18/16 02:12 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Why would you deny the changes that took place post WW2 created an incredible economic boom?  No one makes that argument.



I don't deny it.  The New Deal was an absolutely vital factor to the post war boom.

Quote:

qman said:
Hiking tax rates was NOT the main reason the US paid down the debt, economic growth, inflation and social change did that task.



Agreed, those all contributed.  Now how did WWII contribute?

Quote:

qman said:
There was pent-up demand that was building for years, we don't have that issue today.



Are you kidding?  Do you seriously think people have everything they want?  There is plenty of pent-up demand today; people just need the money to meet that demand.

Quote:

qman said:
There was massive infrastructure building that needed to take place, we don't have that issue today.



Are you kidding?  Our infrastructure is crumbling today and there are MORE than enough projects that need to get done.  We just need the money to do it.

Quote:

qman said:
A large amount of the debt is held outside of the US today, that wasn't the case post WW2.



Ya, so?


None of your arguments explain how WWII contributed to reducing the debt.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: World War II is NOT the reason US Debt/GDP went down [Re: Crumist] * 1
    #23749106 - 10/18/16 02:17 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Crumist said:
Falcon, you must admit that the global destruction wrought by WWII was pretty beneficial for US businesses, especially agriculture and basic industry.



It was beneficial for about 5 years.  It had no impact after 1950 as the following chart clearly shows:



Quote:

Crumist said:
BTW, I think debt/GDP is a strange variable to discuss. Why not separate the two?



Because debt on its own is completely meaningless.  Is $1 trillion a lot of debt?  It depends on your GDP.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineqman
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Re: World War II is NOT the reason US Debt/GDP went down [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23749132 - 10/18/16 02:30 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Why would you deny the changes that took place post WW2 created an incredible economic boom?  No one makes that argument.



I don't deny it.  The New Deal was an absolutely vital factor to the post war boom.

Quote:

qman said:
Hiking tax rates was NOT the main reason the US paid down the debt, economic growth, inflation and social change did that task.



Agreed, those all contributed.  Now how did WWII contribute?

Quote:

qman said:
There was pent-up demand that was building for years, we don't have that issue today.



Are you kidding?  Do you seriously think people have everything they want?  There is plenty of pent-up demand today; people just need the money to meet that demand.

Quote:

qman said:
There was massive infrastructure building that needed to take place, we don't have that issue today.



Are you kidding?  Our infrastructure is crumbling today and there are MORE than enough projects that need to get done.  We just need the money to do it.

Quote:

qman said:
A large amount of the debt is held outside of the US today, that wasn't the case post WW2.



Ya, so?


None of your arguments explain how WWII contributed to reducing the debt.




"people just need the money to meet that demand"

:lol:  That's a good one, many people had the money during WW2 but couldn't get the product because there was a SUPPLY issue, that's entirely different than today.  That's why it's called pent-up demand, not people just wanting more shit they can't afford.

"Ya so?"

Isn't it quite obvious?  When the government retires bonds held outside of the US, that money is NOT likely to reenter the US economy like it did post WW2.

"our infrastructure"

Isn't like it was post WW2, we didn't even have highways yet, that's not the case today. The key for infrastructure spending is getting a huge return on investment, post WW2 infrastructure spending offered an excellent return.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: World War II is NOT the reason US Debt/GDP went down [Re: qman] * 1
    #23749170 - 10/18/16 02:46 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
people just need the money to meet that demand



many people had the money during WW2 but couldn't get the product because there was a SUPPLY issue, that's entirely different than today.



People had money at the end of the Great Depression? And if they did, how long did that pent up demand last?  30 years???

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
A large amount of the debt is held outside of the US today, that wasn't the case post WW2.



Ya so?



Isn't it quite obvious?  When the government retires bonds held outside of the US, that money is NOT likely to reenter the US economy like it did post WW2.



I don't get how another world war would change the situation today?  The question is how did the war contribute to the post WWII boom?

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Our infrastructure is crumbling today and there are MORE than enough projects that need to get done.  We just need the money to do it.



Isn't like it was post WW2, we didn't even have highways yet, that's not the case today. The key for infrastructure spending is getting a huge return on investment, post WW2 infrastructure spending offered an excellent return.



There are way more than enough infrastructure projects that need to get done today, including fixing some of the old projects that were done nearly 100 years ago.  Things like completely overhauling public transportation, that would have a huge return on investment.  We just need a President with the will to move forward with them.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineCrumist
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Re: World War II is NOT the reason US Debt/GDP went down [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23750068 - 10/18/16 07:52 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

We have a president ready and willing to invest in infrastructure. He just spent all his political capital on the ACA and reaction to the Great Recession before Dems lost Congress and we learned he's a bit petty and a poor compromiser.

Congress is and shall be the issue, and I think Hillary is strong where Obama was weak (cracking heads, trading horses, and getting shit done)

Also, don't you feel you are painting with broad strokes here? It's pretty hard to argue that WWII *wasn't* a factor in debt/GDP shrinkage or that the E. hemisphere had entirely recovered by 1950. Especially with a single graph.
That FDR's prewar policies, or Eisenhower's taxes had *greater impact* is a more modest and reasonable goal.

Besides, a modern conventional war will NOT be good for GDP or debt. You can be assured of major issues on the homefront if we ever have it real consideration.
Even if it were, who the fuck wants war for the sake of the economy? You sick bastards


--------------------
'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: World War II is NOT the reason US Debt/GDP went down [Re: Crumist] * 2
    #23750721 - 10/18/16 11:08 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Crumist said:
It's pretty hard to argue that WWII *wasn't* a factor in debt/GDP shrinkage or that the E. hemisphere had entirely recovered by 1950. Especially with a single graph.



That's exactly what I'm arguing with a single graph.  If you have other reasons besides a trade surplus for how WWII helped shrink debt/GDP, I'm very interested in hearing about it.

Quote:

Crumist said:
That FDR's prewar policies, or Eisenhower's taxes had *greater impact* is a more modest and reasonable goal.



A much greater impact.  FDR's New Deal policies kept the economy strong until Reagan tore everything apart with his trickle down economics.

Quote:

Crumist said:
Besides, a modern conventional war will NOT be good for GDP or debt. You can be assured of major issues on the homefront if we ever have it real consideration.
Even if it were, who the fuck wants war for the sake of the economy? You sick bastards



I'm the one arguing against war.  WWII did get us out of the Great Depression, but it really wasn't the war that did that.  It was the massive stimulus spending that occurred (which just so happened to go to the war).


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineCrumist
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Re: World War II is NOT the reason US Debt/GDP went down [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23751658 - 10/19/16 10:53 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Crumist said:
It's pretty hard to argue that WWII *wasn't* a factor in debt/GDP shrinkage or that the E. hemisphere had entirely recovered by 1950. Especially with a single graph.



That's exactly what I'm arguing with a single graph.  If you have other reasons besides a trade surplus for how WWII helped shrink debt/GDP, I'm very interested in hearing about it.



Trade surplus, the US gov't flirting with fascism, entrance of women into the workplace, the end of formal colonialism, formation of world bank and UN, US military dominance, the GI bill.
All potential factors related to WWII


--------------------
'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: World War II is NOT the reason US Debt/GDP went down [Re: Crumist]
    #23751931 - 10/19/16 12:44 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Crumist said:
Trade surplus, the US gov't flirting with fascism, entrance of women into the workplace, the end of formal colonialism, formation of world bank and UN, US military dominance, the GI bill.
All potential factors related to WWII



- The trade surplus only lasted a brief 5 years, not 30 as my chart shows
- I have no idea why you think fascism (if it existed) reduced Debt/GDP
- Women workforce participation didn't really grow until the '60s; it had nothing to do with WWII

- How did the world bank and UN reduce our debt/GDP?
- Do you seriously think our military dominance and the GI bill REDUCED our debt/GDP?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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