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Offlinefilyep
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Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks?
    #23747822 - 10/18/16 02:31 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Hi guys I have just done a few shiitake blocks and I think I may have put too much wheat bran in. I'm not sure where I got my formula from but I think it might have been for oysters.

I scaled it down and used volume rather than weight because moisture content of my woodchips would vary.

So I got  woodchips  88%
          Wheat bran 8%
          Gypsum    4%

This is all measured by volume which I won't put down because it's in metric and it might make your heads explode. :P

So I did two block of these one I have already inoculated with 16% of grain spawn and the other I am still to do. I was thinking of using less grain spawn since I have so much supplementation.

So I have seen other post saying to add around 1/8 to 1/4 to a 6lb block of sawdust and my block is at least half that with 1/2 cup of bran in it.

Will it be ok or should I expect mutated fruits. Also I have no idea of the strain I'm using.

Cheers


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OfflineFerather
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: filyep]
    #23748944 - 10/18/16 01:28 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Mutated? No only if its some weird sugar rich grain. 100% grain is stable, so no mutation.
No need for Gypsum, will only use the carbon, 99% of the calcium will be waste.

Think you will find up to 25% bran is considered normal.


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Offlinefilyep
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: Ferather]
    #23749620 - 10/18/16 05:36 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I was just worried since other posts I've read said that over supplementation can cause mutated fruits. Even over spawning was considered as an over supplementation. I am using fine wood chips as oppose to saw dust so that might help.


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Offlineanthiawe
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: filyep]
    #23749804 - 10/18/16 06:42 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

25% bran is not for shiitake. you should aim for 5% at most.


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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: filyep]
    #23750605 - 10/18/16 10:33 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

If your sterilization is correct, you can supplement up to 20%. So 8 is ok, no mutants.


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Offlinefilyep
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: frog48]
    #23750674 - 10/18/16 10:55 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

How does everyone measure there ingredients?

I do % dry volume because moisture content of sawdust/woodchips can vary.


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OfflineGr0wer
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: anthiawe]
    #23750726 - 10/18/16 11:09 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

anthiawe said:
25% bran is not for shiitake. you should aim for 5% at most.



False. You can supplement 20%



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Offlinefilyep
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: Gr0wer]
    #23750771 - 10/18/16 11:29 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Wow that shiitake block has now become my goal. :smile:

How'd you whip that one up? What strain as well?


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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: filyep]
    #23751127 - 10/19/16 04:46 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14208593
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14802309#14802309

why is the mutant debate for shiitake and over-supplementing such a prevalent issue on the shroomery? so right now there is 5%, 8%, and 20% from this thread alone. how much of this is strain dependent?


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Offlinefilyep
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: anthiawe]
    #23751169 - 10/19/16 05:27 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Yes I read those and thus the reason for this post.

I have giving them lots of spawn and supplementation with bran. I used popcorn so that might not be as nutritious as other grains. I'm not sure of my strain so I guess the proof will be in the pudding.


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Offlinefilyep
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: filyep]
    #23751175 - 10/19/16 05:34 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Just to clarify I'm not saying 8% bran (my measurement by volume) is over supplementing just that compared to one poster from one of the links that used 1/2 a cup of bran per block got mutants(block larger than mine and I used 1/2 a cup of bran). 

Confused? Good. :smile:


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OfflineCharly
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: filyep]
    #23751606 - 10/19/16 10:28 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

What many people don't realize is that you could grow shiitake on 100% mixed sawdust. But it would take a lot time. You add supplements to speed up the incubation. After 20 days the supplements are gone. So:

80% hardwood, mixed fine & coarse
10% Grain
10% Bran

I still don't understand why people add gypsum. There is no biological reason for it.

Sterilize
1% Spawn
Seal bag

Depending on stain. 12 to 20 days at air temp 22c and 90 to 110 days at 16 to 19c. >>> drop to 15c and take bag off to fruit.

Voila.


Edited by Charly (10/19/16 12:37 PM)


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OfflineFerather
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: Charly]
    #23752172 - 10/19/16 02:23 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Charly said:
I still don't understand why people add gypsum. There is no biological reason for it.




Could not agree more. Helps with Ph and a minor carbon source, 98-99% waste.
If you lower the Ph too much, you can slow down growth greatly.

A fertilizer or rich additive would be better.
Such as 4%: Tea, Alfalfa or Straw.


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Growing mushrooms, general guide and information (Ferather's Journal), https://ibb.co/rG3rML2

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27857366#27857366

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OfflineQuadman
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: Ferather]
    #23752410 - 10/19/16 03:59 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ferather said:
Quote:

Charly said:
I still don't understand why people add gypsum. There is no biological reason for it.





If you lower the Ph too much, you can slow down growth greatly.





Gypsum should raise or keep pH stable. I believe it help keep the grains loose and prevents clumping.


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Offlinedrake89
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: Charly]
    #23752417 - 10/19/16 04:02 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Charly said:
What many people don't realize is that you could grow shiitake on 100% mixed sawdust. But it would take a lot time. You add supplements to speed up the incubation. After 20 days the supplements are gone. So:

80% hardwood, mixed fine & coarse
10% Grain
10% Bran

I still don't understand why people add gypsum. There is no biological reason for it.

Sterilize
1% Spawn
Seal bag

Depending on stain. 12 to 20 days at air temp 22c and 90 to 110 days at 16 to 19c. >>> drop to 15c and take bag off to fruit.

Voila.




grains aren't as good.  just stick with bran


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OfflineGr0wer
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: drake89]
    #23753413 - 10/19/16 09:57 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

With no bran vs 20% bran you get 1/2 the yield with the same spawn rate. And 8% bran by volume is like 3% by weight. A 5 gal pail full of bran is only 9 lbs without compression, while i regularly put 30 lbs of pellets or grains in one pail.

and charly, welcome to the shroomery but you have a long way to go. Your days are way off, how about 50-60 days incubation at low 70s, cold shock, smack, chamber then birth 2-3 days later. after 20 days supplements are most definitely not gone, and they do not speed up incubation from what I've witnessed, the blocks will brown much better and faster with bran, i can tell you that much.


Edited by Gr0wer (10/19/16 10:01 PM)


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OfflineCharly
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: Gr0wer]
    #23753924 - 10/20/16 03:06 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Supplements are only used to speed up the colonization of mycelium. A this point growth is only on the surface of particles and the mycelium accumulates no nutrition.
The next phase of growth is decomposing of the sawdust to build up a depot for fructification. Heat is the enemy here. At air temp 22c each ton of substrate generates 350 watt/h. This might lead to 10c higher temp at core. This puts a block at risk. Better a lower air temp and a slower decomposition rate/lower heat generation.

Also, a grower wants a huge first flush. I know no grower in Europe that does more the 2 flushes. Many only 1. Nonetheless yield is around 24%. This can be done by a longer incubation/repening phase.

A properly grown block will start fruiting with even the slightest touch and drop of temperature.


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Offlinefrog48
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: Charly]
    #23753932 - 10/20/16 03:15 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Hell, Charley seems to know what he's talking about. I agree, confirm. No bran, no yield though


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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: frog48]
    #23753965 - 10/20/16 04:10 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

so over supplemented shiitakes causing mutant fruits is a myth? or?


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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: anthiawe]
    #23754043 - 10/20/16 05:58 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I never saw any mutants and we supplement up to 20%. Yields are around 20 %, about 500 grams per block. May be the mutant story is related to strain 75, I run 3782 from mycelia and I never had any problems.


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OfflineCharly
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: frog48]
    #23754059 - 10/20/16 06:25 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

20% supplements should indeed never be a problem, IF temperature is kept relatively low and the substratee mix has good structure for CO2 and O2 exchange.

Often at 20% bran the structure becomes to dense.


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OfflineGr0wer
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: Charly]
    #23755269 - 10/20/16 03:32 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Suppliments are absolutely not just used to speed up colonization. And as i noted earler ive done side by side tests with supplemented and unsupplemented and colonization speed is equal. They increase nurtients available for fruit formation.


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OfflineCharly
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: Gr0wer]
    #23759817 - 10/22/16 01:49 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

OK, some trace elements of oil (in grain and bran) is needed for healthy fruit formation, but 99.9% of fruit comes from lignicellulose nutrients that enzymes have produced for the mycelium to absorb for storage.

In any case temperature, moisture and substrate structure are more important that what exactly the supplements are. Supplements are needed for fast colonization, but is at the same time the number one reason for excessive heat.

Golden rules: Less supplement is better than too much, lower temperature is better than too high.

I guess you can add to that the amount of spawn added. I read here that many growers toss 10% or more in a bag. That is asking for trouble. The vast majority of professional growers add 0.5 to 1% spawn.


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Offlinefilyep
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: Charly]
    #23759831 - 10/22/16 02:02 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Do commercial growers use that low spawn rate to make their spawn go further?

Also regarding heat would that only be a problem if we are using large substrate volumes?

I would imagine someone doing shiitake with a 500ml (half qt) jar would not have this problem.


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OfflineCharly
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: filyep]
    #23759890 - 10/22/16 03:08 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Part of the reason is of course that most growers buy their spawn and is expensive. But the most important is that the more spawn you add to the substrate the more heat a block generates in the incubation stage.

I have seen a core temperature that was 12C higher than ambient air with 20% supplement and 5% spawn. Block was 7L (around 3.5kg).

500ml spawn is way to much. Why do you think you need so much?

Heat is the number one killer for all mushroom strains.


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Offlinefilyep
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: Charly]
    #23759912 - 10/22/16 03:30 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Sorry I meant someone doing a 500ml grow like a pf tek style grow wouldn't have that much of a problem because there is not as much bio mass.


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OfflineFerather
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: Gr0wer]
    #23759998 - 10/22/16 05:03 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Gr0wer said:
Suppliments are absolutely not just used to speed up colonization. And as i noted earler ive done side by side tests with supplemented and unsupplemented and colonization speed is equal. They increase nurtients available for fruit formation.




Depends what you are adding, and to what. Else I agree, baseline you enrich substrates for yield not speed.
The term supplemented should be changed commonly to enriching or fertilizing.


--------------------
                   

Growing mushrooms, general guide and information (Ferather's Journal), https://ibb.co/rG3rML2

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27857366#27857366

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OfflineGr0wer
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: Charly]
    #23760618 - 10/22/16 11:08 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Charly said:
OK, some trace elements of oil (in grain and bran) is needed for healthy fruit formation, but 99.9% of fruit comes from lignicellulose nutrients that enzymes have produced for the mycelium to absorb for storage.





Then why does 20% bran vs none make a 100-120% yield increase?


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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: Gr0wer]
    #23760773 - 10/22/16 12:08 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Charly said:
99.9% of fruit comes from lignicellulose nutrients that enzymes have produced for the mycelium to absorb for storage.




No, any digestible energy and nutrition source will be consumed and used, or stored. Based on genetics or 3rd party activity.


Quote:

Gr0wer said:
Then why does 20% bran vs none make a 100-120% yield increase?



Because you increase the energy and nutritional ratio per physical gram.
Plus the original statement is completely inaccurate.


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Growing mushrooms, general guide and information (Ferather's Journal), https://ibb.co/rG3rML2

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27857366#27857366

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OfflineCharly
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: Ferather]
    #23763009 - 10/23/16 01:20 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

While one would never grow Shiitake without supplements, it can be done. And at a similar yield. It just takes forever. I have seen it. 7 liters mixed size oak sawdust - 3.4kg. 42 weeks. Total yield in three flushes was 29%. Temperature 18c.


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OfflineFerather
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: Charly]
    #23763214 - 10/23/16 04:34 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I'm not arguing with you, because you are part right. It depends on the situation.
Its just not the aim for the general community, where total yield is.

Complex sources are slower to digest but richer in total.


--------------------
                   

Growing mushrooms, general guide and information (Ferather's Journal), https://ibb.co/rG3rML2

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27857366#27857366

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OfflineCharly
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: Ferather]
    #23763299 - 10/23/16 06:11 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Yes. Just interesting for our understanding of the many biologic processes that happen in fungi production. After all we are manipulating nature with a fairly heavy hand.

Another area where I have seen interesting trials is sterilization. Heat above 60c starts reducing available nutrients.

Proper sterilization runs at 121c for 20 min. Mainly to kill endospores. One grower I know "sterilizes" at 107c for 90 min. His yield is higher identical substrate at 121c 20 min, without infection etc.


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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: Charly]
    #23763350 - 10/23/16 06:57 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I see you have been researching, thats very good. The difference in timing is due to the preparation of grains.
If you cold soak grain, you will need to cook for longer, due to increased endospore count.

I disagree with any no cook, not clean, style grain preparation.


--------------------
                   

Growing mushrooms, general guide and information (Ferather's Journal), https://ibb.co/rG3rML2

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27857366#27857366

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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: Ferather]
    #23763543 - 10/23/16 08:37 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

This is the thread ive been looking for :dancer:


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Invisibleflyontoast
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: Charly]
    #23767614 - 10/24/16 05:35 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Charly said:
I still don't understand why people add gypsum. There is no biological reason for it.
Voila.




Is this only true for Shiitake or all mushrooms? I feel like every book I have read says to add gypsum (or at least to all straw formulas?).
Does it not add to the nutrition or taste of the mushrooms?


--------------------
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Agaricus Bitorquis, Agaricus Augustus, Agaricus blazei/subrufescens, Stropharia Rugoso-annulata, Clitocybe Nuda (blewits), and any species or other genus that you think work outdoors.
Also, any commercially viable Pleurotus, cold or hot strains.
Thanks for the Q&A, trades, and all the posters & teachers that have come before us  :skol:


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