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Charly
Stranger
Registered: 06/11/16
Posts: 11
Last seen: 5 years, 3 days
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: frog48]
#23754059 - 10/20/16 06:25 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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20% supplements should indeed never be a problem, IF temperature is kept relatively low and the substratee mix has good structure for CO2 and O2 exchange.
Often at 20% bran the structure becomes to dense.
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Gr0wer
always improving



Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 6,056
Loc: El Paso, TX
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: Charly]
#23755269 - 10/20/16 03:32 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Suppliments are absolutely not just used to speed up colonization. And as i noted earler ive done side by side tests with supplemented and unsupplemented and colonization speed is equal. They increase nurtients available for fruit formation.
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Charly
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Registered: 06/11/16
Posts: 11
Last seen: 5 years, 3 days
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: Gr0wer]
#23759817 - 10/22/16 01:49 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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OK, some trace elements of oil (in grain and bran) is needed for healthy fruit formation, but 99.9% of fruit comes from lignicellulose nutrients that enzymes have produced for the mycelium to absorb for storage.
In any case temperature, moisture and substrate structure are more important that what exactly the supplements are. Supplements are needed for fast colonization, but is at the same time the number one reason for excessive heat.
Golden rules: Less supplement is better than too much, lower temperature is better than too high.
I guess you can add to that the amount of spawn added. I read here that many growers toss 10% or more in a bag. That is asking for trouble. The vast majority of professional growers add 0.5 to 1% spawn.
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filyep
Dr.



Registered: 07/12/16
Posts: 131
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: Charly]
#23759831 - 10/22/16 02:02 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Do commercial growers use that low spawn rate to make their spawn go further?
Also regarding heat would that only be a problem if we are using large substrate volumes?
I would imagine someone doing shiitake with a 500ml (half qt) jar would not have this problem.
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Charly
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Registered: 06/11/16
Posts: 11
Last seen: 5 years, 3 days
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: filyep]
#23759890 - 10/22/16 03:08 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Part of the reason is of course that most growers buy their spawn and is expensive. But the most important is that the more spawn you add to the substrate the more heat a block generates in the incubation stage.
I have seen a core temperature that was 12C higher than ambient air with 20% supplement and 5% spawn. Block was 7L (around 3.5kg).
500ml spawn is way to much. Why do you think you need so much?
Heat is the number one killer for all mushroom strains.
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filyep
Dr.



Registered: 07/12/16
Posts: 131
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: Charly]
#23759912 - 10/22/16 03:30 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Sorry I meant someone doing a 500ml grow like a pf tek style grow wouldn't have that much of a problem because there is not as much bio mass.
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: Gr0wer]
#23759998 - 10/22/16 05:03 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Gr0wer said: Suppliments are absolutely not just used to speed up colonization. And as i noted earler ive done side by side tests with supplemented and unsupplemented and colonization speed is equal. They increase nurtients available for fruit formation.
Depends what you are adding, and to what. Else I agree, baseline you enrich substrates for yield not speed. The term supplemented should be changed commonly to enriching or fertilizing.
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Gr0wer
always improving



Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 6,056
Loc: El Paso, TX
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: Charly]
#23760618 - 10/22/16 11:08 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Charly said: OK, some trace elements of oil (in grain and bran) is needed for healthy fruit formation, but 99.9% of fruit comes from lignicellulose nutrients that enzymes have produced for the mycelium to absorb for storage.
Then why does 20% bran vs none make a 100-120% yield increase?
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: Gr0wer]
#23760773 - 10/22/16 12:08 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Charly said: 99.9% of fruit comes from lignicellulose nutrients that enzymes have produced for the mycelium to absorb for storage.
No, any digestible energy and nutrition source will be consumed and used, or stored. Based on genetics or 3rd party activity.
Quote:
Gr0wer said: Then why does 20% bran vs none make a 100-120% yield increase?
Because you increase the energy and nutritional ratio per physical gram. Plus the original statement is completely inaccurate.
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Charly
Stranger
Registered: 06/11/16
Posts: 11
Last seen: 5 years, 3 days
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: Ferather]
#23763009 - 10/23/16 01:20 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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While one would never grow Shiitake without supplements, it can be done. And at a similar yield. It just takes forever. I have seen it. 7 liters mixed size oak sawdust - 3.4kg. 42 weeks. Total yield in three flushes was 29%. Temperature 18c.
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: Charly]
#23763214 - 10/23/16 04:34 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'm not arguing with you, because you are part right. It depends on the situation. Its just not the aim for the general community, where total yield is.
Complex sources are slower to digest but richer in total.
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Charly
Stranger
Registered: 06/11/16
Posts: 11
Last seen: 5 years, 3 days
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: Ferather]
#23763299 - 10/23/16 06:11 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yes. Just interesting for our understanding of the many biologic processes that happen in fungi production. After all we are manipulating nature with a fairly heavy hand.
Another area where I have seen interesting trials is sterilization. Heat above 60c starts reducing available nutrients.
Proper sterilization runs at 121c for 20 min. Mainly to kill endospores. One grower I know "sterilizes" at 107c for 90 min. His yield is higher identical substrate at 121c 20 min, without infection etc.
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: Charly]
#23763350 - 10/23/16 06:57 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I see you have been researching, thats very good. The difference in timing is due to the preparation of grains. If you cold soak grain, you will need to cook for longer, due to increased endospore count.
I disagree with any no cook, not clean, style grain preparation.
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Nobler Hino
a dojo and a forge?!


Registered: 08/29/15
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Deep Ellum
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: Ferather]
#23763543 - 10/23/16 08:37 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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This is the thread ive been looking for
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   "The sacred mushroom takes me by the hand and brings me to the world where everything is known. It is they, the sacred mushrooms, that speak in a way I can understand. I ask them and they answer me.” – Maria Sabina
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flyontoast
Farming food; farming time


Registered: 08/20/16
Posts: 258
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Re: Have I over supplemented my Shiitake blocks? [Re: Charly]
#23767614 - 10/24/16 05:35 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Charly said: I still don't understand why people add gypsum. There is no biological reason for it. Voila.
Is this only true for Shiitake or all mushrooms? I feel like every book I have read says to add gypsum (or at least to all straw formulas?). Does it not add to the nutrition or taste of the mushrooms?
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My trade list Looking for strong terrestrial fruiters for an outdoor beds experiment: Agaricus Bitorquis, Agaricus Augustus, Agaricus blazei/subrufescens, Stropharia Rugoso-annulata, Clitocybe Nuda (blewits), and any species or other genus that you think work outdoors. Also, any commercially viable Pleurotus, cold or hot strains. Thanks for the Q&A, trades, and all the posters & teachers that have come before us
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