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Offlinenuentoter
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Re: Mysterious hallucination-causing illness seemingly spread by touch hits US hospital [Re: Coolwhip GA]
    #23748070 - 10/18/16 07:05 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Microscopic air transferable neurotoxin?


--------------------

The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know.  - @entheolove

"I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for"  - Georgia O'Keefe

I think the word is vagina


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Invisibleopenmind
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Re: Mysterious hallucination-causing illness seemingly spread by touch hits US hospital [Re: rider420] * 2
    #23749313 - 10/18/16 03:38 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

rider420 said:
Albert Hofmann discovered LSD by trans-durmal experince, he touched a tiny amount in the lab, check out his book my problem child.

Now, little by little I could begin to enjoy the unprecedented colors and plays of shapes that persisted behind my closed eyes. Kaleidoscopic, fantastic images surged in on me, alternating, variegated, opening and then closing themselves in circles and spirals, exploding in colored fountains, rearranging and hybridizing themselves in constant flux......







That's only speculation, it's never been proven that Hofmann actually got LSD into his system on that day (and I don't know how it'd ever be proven)....Parts of Hofmann's account from what happened that day don't actually line up and fit with the timeline of an acid trip. And it's been shown that LSD does not absorb through the skin with ease.


Dr. David Nichols (chemist and pharmacologist, professor of medicinal chemistry and molecular pharmacology at Purdue University), now retired but one of the leading/recent researchers in studies with psychedelics and LSD, has a hypothesis that Hofmann didn't get any LSD into his system that day...but rather he thinks that Hofmann had a spontaneous mystical experience, which Hofmann was prone to and had experienced at times as a child....And this ultimately led Hofmann to intentionally ingesting the first dose a few days later on the 19th.

When Nichol's explained his hypothesis to Albert Hofmann, Hofmann replied, "It's entirely possible."



I've posted about this here before, I'll just copy and paste an old post of mine about this topic, Nichol's hypothesis is below>>>



Quote:

openmind said:

I'm one who believes, or is at least totally open to the idea, that Albert may have not accidentally dosed himself with anything on April 16th 1943, before intentionally taking that 250mcg a few days later on the 19th what we now know as bicycle day....but rather, I think Albert may have had a spontaneous mystical experience on the 16th, which led to him suspecting the activity of LSD-25 and ultimately dosing himself and having the first LSD trip on the 19th.


This particular part from Hofmann's account of what occurred on April 16th never made sense to me......

"I perceived an uninterrupted stream of fantastic pictures, extraordinary shapes with intense, kaleidoscopic play of colors. After some two hours this condition faded away."


......considering even a relatively low dose of LSD will be pronounced for longer than 2 hours, especially a dose that's sufficient enough to produce "an uninterrupted stream of fantastic pictures, extraordinary shapes with intense, kaleidoscopic play of colors" ....That part never added up or made sense to me, that doesn't line up with the timeline of an LSD trip, with either a low or high dose.





So I always wondered what was up with that....Well, a year or two ago I saw a talk by David Nichols (chemist and pharmacologist, professor of medicinal chemistry and molecular pharmacology at Purdue University...IIRC Nichols is the one who actually synthesized the LSD that is used in the current MAPS studies...and I think the MDMA as well), he brings up this aspect of Hofmann's report of what happened that day (April 16th). I was very glad to finally see this addressed (and in our time, who better to do so than Nichols).  He thinks Hofmann may have very well had a spontaneous mystical experience of sorts on April 16th (which Hofmann had experienced before during childhood as well), and that Hofmann did not accidently get some into his system on April 16th....And when Dr. David Nichols explained his hypothesis to Hofmann, Hofmann's response was  "It's entirely possible."





I can't find the video, but here is the text/transcript of Nichols' hypothesis from that Presentation>>>>>>>>>>>>>>







Since we're just a slight bit past the 60th anniversary of the discovery of LSD, I thought I would have a little audience participation fun, and give you a little insight into how the scientific process works. Because, often times in this community, "scientist" has somewhat of a pejorative connotation. I want to show you how we're not so different, and do a little experiment.

You know the way science works. We make observations, we develop or formulate a hypothesis that is consistent with those observations, and then we attempt to carry out experiments to test the hypothesis. I don't think we'll be able to carry out the experiments to test the hypothesis, but what I want to do is develop a hypothesis today that I think you'll find very interesting. But the first thing we need to know is what kind of a database we're working with. What I'd like you to do is raise your hand if you have read Albert Hofmann's account of the discovery of LSD.

[nearly everyone in the conference hall raises their hand]


Ah, just as I suspected. So we have a good database, and probably an educated database.

What I want to do now is another experiment. I want you to raise your hand and hold it in the air as long as I am stating things that you hold to be true, and when I say something you believe not to be true, then put your hand down.

So, the first thing I'm going to say, if you believe it to be true, raise your hand, and keep it up there until I say something you disagree with.

On April 16, 1943, when Albert Hofmann accidentally ingested LSD, he ingested at least 25 micrograms. Now keep your hand up until I say something you disagree with.

[most people in the audience raise their hands]

On that same date in 1943, Albert Hofmann ingested at least 50 micrograms of LSD.

[a few people put their hands down]

On that same date in 1943, Albert Hofmann ingested at least 75 micrograms.

[several more people put their hands down]

And then again, on that date in 1943, Albert Hofmann ingested at least 100 micrograms.

[more people put their hands down]

On that same date, Albert Hofmann ingested 150 micrograms.

[only a few people still have their hands still up]

Well I think I've already proved the point. I think there's a consensus that Albert Hofmann must have ingested at least 50 to 75 micrograms, and there are people in here who believe he must have ingested 100 or 150 micrograms. Now we've estimated, with this educated database, approximately how much LSD he must have accidentally gotten inside himself.

Now, we'll do the same thing again. In April 1943, after his accidental ingestion, how many people believe that Albert Hofmann would have experienced the effects of LSD for at least 10 hours, based on that dose?

[Several people put their hands up]

Now if we believe he took LSD, and if we believe he took 50 to 75 micrograms -- that's the context -- how many people believe the effects should have lasted at least 8 hours. [many more hands go up] How many believe the effects would have lasted at least 6 hours? [more hands go up] How believe the effects would have lasted at least four hours? [nearly all hands are up at this point]

Now, how many people believe that the effects of a 50-75 microgram dose of LSD would only have lasted two hours? [nearly all hands go down]

We read from his account:
"I perceived an uninterrupted stream of fantastic pictures, extraordinary shapes with intense, kaleidoscopic play of colors. After some two hours (emphasis added) this condition faded away." (Hofmann, 1983).

Well now, that was a conundrum for me. I read that and I thought, "gee I'm a scientist, and this doesn't make sense with what I know." And for most of you, I think, that doesn't make sense either. So, the question: how can we formulate a hypothesis consistent with this observation? We need to consider a few things.

We know that Albert originally synthesized LSD in 1938 as part of an ambitious program to make a number of lysergamides. LSD-25 was only the 25th in the series. I actually don't know how many of those compounds he made, but let's assume he only made 30. So we had up to 30 in the series. He may have made many more actually, but at least say 30. And they were all tested; he sent the pharmacology department LSD-25, 24, 23... and so forth. They then say, "LSD-25: not interesting." The assays of that day really didn't provide much information; they were very unsophisticated. But five years later, Albert has a hunch that the pharmacology department missed something on this 25th in the series.

Now that's kind of peculiar. I'm familiar with the drug industry, and I've actually started a small company myself. Imagine you're a musician, and you've created this musical piece. It's really wonderful; it's one of the best pieces you've ever written; you play it for people, they think it's great. And this one artist comes down. He's very creative but he has no musical talent at all, really tone deaf, he listens to your music and he says, "Man that sucks. You missed something. There's something missing." Now you as a musician are probably going to have some sort of a gut reaction to that. And even though the pharmacologist at Sandoz was probably a friend of Albert's, can you imagine this chemist coming down the hall and saying, "You know, I made this compound five years ago, out of this whole series, and there's this one compound, LSD-25, that you said was uninteresting... but you must have missed something. I just have this 'peculiar presentiment,' this strange hunch that you missed something." You're going to look at Albert and say, "You know, really, I'm an expert in pharmacology Albert. We tested it very well."

The Germans and the Swiss are very precise chemists, and pharmacologists, and scientists. There wouldn't have been any question about this being somehow mis-analyzed the first time.

This is another interesting point. Why the 25th? We know that only the 25th in the series was active. Any other compound that he made -- and I've made many of them, we've tested many of them -- none of the others approach LSD, either in its sophistication or in its potency. Only the 25th. And this is unusual. In pharmacology often you have a regular series. If we think of things like DOB, and DOI, there's a kind of regular progression. They all fit into a kind of subgenus. And LSD doesn't. We don't call the other members of the series Albert made as LSD something or other, but if we had LSD-23, 24 and 26, they would all be one-tenth the activity of LSD-25. Peculiar presentiment indeed!

As I've said, Swiss and German chemists have a reputation -- today and back then -- for being absolutely meticulous. If we had gone into Albert's lab at Sandoz in 1943, we would probably have found everything in its place, organized in an obsessively neat manner. No dirty glassware, no trash on the floor, meticulous. How in the world did a meticulous Swiss chemist get 50 to 75 micrograms or more of LSD into his body? We don't know.



Another fact: I've made LSD in my lab on many occasions for research purposes, possibly in not so meticulous a manner as Albert Hofmann. Nothing ever happened. I had several graduate students who made LSD as an intermediate for projects. No accidental ingestion of LSD ever occurred. A technician in my lab makes it routinely because we use it as a drug to train our rats. He's learned by experience that he never gets high, nothing ever happens. And yesterday I was talking to Nick Sand, and Nick said, "I made a solution of LSD in DMSO…" -- DMSO (dimethyl sulfoxide) is a chemical that greatly enhances absorption of other chemicals through the skin -- he says, "…I painted it on my skin. Nothing happened." A concentrated solution and nothing happened! How did this very meticulous Swiss chemist get the LSD into his body? I don't know.

The other fact we need to think about is when Albert was a child, he had a spontaneous mystical experience. Now depending on whether you're a psychologist or a psychiatrist or whatever, we could say that Albert had a predisposition to altered states of consciousness.

So what facts do we know? I'm going to formulate a hypothesis. He took a dose that by your consensus should have lasted certainly more than two hours, but it only lasted two hours. He was a meticulous chemist -- a Swiss chemist. Anyone I know who's worked with LSD -- and Nick Sand painted a solution of it on his arm -- didn't get high. This doesn't make sense. And what is this peculiar presentiment? Why the 25th in the series? Inexplicable! And, he was predisposed to altered states of consciousness.

The only hypothesis I can come up with that's consistent with all of these facts is that on April 16, 1943, Albert Hofmann did not get LSD in his body at all. He had a spontaneous mystical experience!

Now if I were working in the lab with a new chemical, and I started having kaleidoscopic visions of wonderful colors and patterns, my first thought wouldn't be that I was having a spontaneous experience. My first thought would be, "What was that new chemical I was working with? I need to tell Sasha about it." [laughter]

I think that's what happened, that's the hypothesis. We can't test that hypothesis, but when I saw Albert in Basel a couple years ago, I presented that particular hypothesis to him and said, "What do you think?" He said, "It's entirely possible."



So, that's our little experiment, and I think most of you really didn't think seriously about the discovery of LSD, but it puts a different light on it.

Now one aside to that we could then bring up is this. If the force that caused him to have this peculiar presentiment -- and very peculiar it is -- is the same force that induced him to have this mystical experience, which caused him to focus on this chemical, we can hope it might happen again.


https://www.erowid.org/general/conferences/conference_mindstates4_nichols.shtml












-OM


.


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InvisiblePanzerCubed
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Re: Mysterious hallucination-causing illness seemingly spread by touch hits US hospital [Re: openmind]
    #23751369 - 10/19/16 08:34 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Could be ergot poisoning, maybe some organic rye bread or homemade rye bread or possibly a fungi of the genera Penicillium and Aspergillus also produce ergot alkaloids, notably some isolates of the human pathogen Aspergillus fumigatus, and have been isolated from plants in the family Convolvulaceae, of which morning glory is best known.

Just a theory :pipesmoke::takingnotes:


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Trade List - updated 16/10/15/


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OfflineThe Mycologist
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Re: Mysterious hallucination-causing illness seemingly spread by touch hits US hospital [Re: PanzerCubed]
    #23751437 - 10/19/16 09:09 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

These don't sound like small dose hallucinations. This is pretty wild, I agree with whoever said zombies


--------------------
"That you are here—that life exists, and identity;
That the powerful play goes on, and you will contribute a verse.”
― Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass
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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Mysterious hallucination-causing illness seemingly spread by touch hits US hospital [Re: The Mycologist]
    #23751600 - 10/19/16 10:26 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

...on April 16, 1943, Albert Hofmann did not get LSD in his body at all. He had a spontaneous mystical experience!




I've seen this, in books on genius and spiritism; inventors find their happy place and talk to a muse.

There's also a spiritual explanation for causing visions by means of a touch.

But, there is a very conventional way, for a meticulous person to dose himself, and to mis-report that, so as to avoid notoriety.

I think Hofmann was legitimately interested in altered states, but did not want to be associated with polarizing stereotypes.


Edited by durian_2008 (10/19/16 11:40 AM)


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Offline44teddyb
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Re: Mysterious hallucination-causing illness seemingly spread by touch hits US hospital [Re: my3rdeye] * 1
    #23766733 - 10/24/16 12:46 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

For one thing i'll tell you from experience that LSD will be absorbed through your skin. Last time i ever deal with that shit with no gloves on :vibin: :whippedcreamhead:


--------------------
I dont do drugs I AM drugs:mushroom2: -Salvador Dali

I loved when Bush came out and said, 'We are losing the war against drugs.'
You know what that implies? There's a war being fought, and the people on drugs are winning it. - Bill Hicks


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Invisible404
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Re: Mysterious hallucination-causing illness seemingly spread by touch hits US hospital [Re: BrotherManBill]
    #23766915 - 10/24/16 01:57 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

BrotherManBill said:
Quote:

my3rdeye said:
LSD wont go thru your skin, no one is going leave that around in quantity. Nbome? What drug could you absorb thru your skin that causes hallucination? If they were poisoned they probably consumed it, I would check what they ate/drank and rule that out first. Could have been ricin or anthrax or just mass hysteria or some new zombie virus. I would say it's unlikely weaponized hallucinogens were released by pranksters, Russian agents maybe, but kids/idiots who bought some powder off the internet? I don't know, that seems unlikely to me.



LSD can and will be absorbed through the skin, but it is unlikely that it could have been transferred to the people who came in contact with this woman. That is unless she had an insane amount of crystal, which is highly doubtful.

Scopolamine could be the culprit, but again it seems unlikely that she would have been exposed to it unless it was done purposefully.




LSD does not absorb through the skin. it's a myth.

Quote:

"I've made LSD in my lab on many occasions for research purposes, possibly in not so meticulous a manner as Albert Hofmann. Nothing ever happened. I had several graduate students who made LSD as an intermediate for projects. No accidental ingestion of LSD ever occurred. A technician in my lab makes it routinely because we use it as a drug to train our rats. He's learned by experience that he never gets high, nothing ever happens. And yesterday I was talking to Nick Sand, and Nick said, "I made a solution of LSD in DMSO…" DMSO (dimethyl sulfoxide) is a chemical that greatly enhances absorption of other chemicals through the skin -- he says, "…I painted it on my skin. Nothing happened." A concentrated solution and nothing happened! How did this very meticulous Swiss chemist get the LSD into his body? I don't know. " The other point we need to think about is that when Albert was a child, he had what he called a spontaneous mystical experience. Now depending on whether you're a psychologist or a psychiatrist or whatever, we could say that Albert had a predisposition to altered states of consciousness.



-Dr. David Nichols

The mind is pretty powerful, if you think lsd can be absorbed through the skin, it may happen through the power of placebo.

here's more evidence against LSD's absorption through the skin.
Quote:

Tim Scully said, "Did you ever get dosed through your skin in the lab". Donnie Shackelford replied, "No, I have accidentally dosed myself while laying sheets, I either touched my eye, or mouth. But the answer to your question is no, you cannot be dosed through the skin. I never wore gloves in any procedure unless lye is used and it isn’t in this procedure. I learned the hard way dropping a flask with 20g of LSD in it. I was extremely upset. I’ve had it all over my hands many, many times. I was there when Dr. Nichols basically called bullshit on the good doctor at Mindstates 60th anniversary".




edit- i see others have also pushed some of this data :thumbup:


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Invisibleobaku
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Re: Mysterious hallucination-causing illness seemingly spread by touch hits US hospital [Re: 404]
    #23769131 - 10/25/16 07:05 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Back in the sixties there was a group called the Merry Pranksters who claimed that they mixed LSD with DMSO and put it on the door handles of police cars.  DMSO is absorbed through the skin and can carry other chemicals with it.  Maybe this was just an urban legend, but I thought it sounded pretty interesting.


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The master's gone herb gathering, somewhere on the mountain, cloud-hidden, whereabouts unknown.


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Invisibleopenmind
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Re: Mysterious hallucination-causing illness seemingly spread by touch hits US hospital [Re: 44teddyb] * 1
    #23770069 - 10/25/16 01:39 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

44teddyb said:
For one thing i'll tell you from experience that LSD will be absorbed through your skin. Last time i ever deal with that shit with no gloves on :vibin: :whippedcreamhead:





Quote:

obaku said:
Back in the sixties there was a group called the Merry Pranksters who claimed that they mixed LSD with DMSO and put it on the door handles of police cars.  DMSO is absorbed through the skin and can carry other chemicals with it.  Maybe this was just an urban legend, but I thought it sounded pretty interesting.







"I've made LSD in my lab on many occasions for research purposes, possibly in not so meticulous a manner as Albert Hofmann. Nothing ever happened. I had several graduate students who made LSD as an intermediate for projects. No accidental ingestion of LSD ever occurred. A technician in my lab makes it routinely because we use it as a drug to train our rats. He's learned by experience that he never gets high, nothing ever happens. And yesterday I was talking to Nick Sand, and Nick said, "I made a solution of LSD in DMSO…" DMSO (dimethyl sulfoxide) is a chemical that greatly enhances absorption of other chemicals through the skin -- he says, "…I painted it on my skin. Nothing happened." A concentrated solution and nothing happened! "


-Dr. David Nichols (The guy who synthesized the LSD for the current MAPS studies)






"Did you ever get dosed through your skin in the lab". Donnie Shackelford replied, "No, I have accidentally dosed myself while laying sheets, I either touched my eye, or mouth. But the answer to your question is no, you cannot be dosed through the skin. I never wore gloves in any procedure unless lye is used and it isn’t in this procedure. I learned the hard way dropping a flask with 20g of LSD in it. I was extremely upset. I’ve had it all over my hands many, many times. I was there when Dr. Nichols basically called bullshit on the good doctor at Mindstates 60th anniversary".










-OM


.


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Invisible404
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Re: Mysterious hallucination-causing illness seemingly spread by touch hits US hospital [Re: openmind] * 1
    #23770219 - 10/25/16 02:24 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I literally just posted that lol


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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Mysterious hallucination-causing illness seemingly spread by touch hits US hospital [Re: 404]
    #23774599 - 10/26/16 08:10 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

-> I have never used LSD, in my life.

Quote:

A technician in my lab makes it routinely because we use it as a drug to train our rats.




How would the rats be dosed.

What effect was it supposed to have on the rats, if not on people?


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Invisibleopenmind
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Re: Mysterious hallucination-causing illness seemingly spread by touch hits US hospital [Re: durian_2008]
    #23776863 - 10/27/16 02:03 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

durian_2008 said:
Quote:

A technician in my lab makes it routinely because we use it as a drug to train our rats.




How would the rats be dosed.

What effect was it supposed to have on the rats, if not on people?







The rats are used in studies, for drug discrimination .



This sorta explains it in a nutshell>>>>


Quote:

By carefully providing food rewards we can train animals to undergo behaviors when presented to a stimulus. We call this 'operant conditioning'. The stimulus can be a light, a sound or, in this case a drug. We essentially teach the rat that 'when we inject you with this drug and you hit a certain lever a certain number of times you will get a treat'. This takes a long time but eventually you get a rat who, every time you inject them with an active substance (and not say the vehicle without the drug) will very reliably hit a lever.

You can then take these trained rats (with a lot of experimental and ethical considerations) and inject them with a similar or different drug, any drug where you want to see how similar the rat 'thinks' it is to the first drug. They will then hit the reward lever more or less depending on how similar they 'think' it is.






In this video, DR. Nichols explains how the rats were used in the LSD studies>>>>

Start watching at 14:00 minutes into the video, which is where he begins to talk about using the rats in drug discrimination.











-OM


.


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Offlinenuentoter
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Re: Mysterious hallucination-causing illness seemingly spread by touch hits US hospital [Re: openmind]
    #23777140 - 10/27/16 03:18 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

has anyone seen any kind of follow up to this?


--------------------

The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know.  - @entheolove

"I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for"  - Georgia O'Keefe

I think the word is vagina


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