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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Universal basic income
    #23742348 - 10/16/16 12:14 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I wanted to start this thread because I'd like to learn from you guys some more about the UBI dynamic.  What I know is this:

Quote:

A basic income (also called unconditional basic income, Citizen's Income, basic income guarantee, universal basic income or universal demogrant) is a form of social security in which all citizens or residents of a country regularly receive an unconditional sum of money, either from a government or some other public institution, in addition to any income received from elsewhere.

An unconditional income transfer of less than the poverty line is sometimes referred to as a partial basic income.

Basic income systems that are financed by the profits of publicly owned enterprises (often called social dividend or citizen's dividend) are major components in many proposed models of market socialism. Basic income schemes have also been promoted within the context of capitalist systems, where they would be financed through various forms of taxation.

Similar proposals for "capital grants provided at the age of majority" date to Thomas Paine's Agrarian Justice of 1795, there paired with asset-based egalitarianism. The phrase "social dividend" was commonly used as a synonym for basic income in the English-speaking world before 1986, after which the phrase "basic income" gained widespread currency. Prominent advocates of the concept include Philippe Van Parijs, Ailsa McKay, André Gorz, Hillel Steiner, Peter Vallentyne, and Guy Standing.

(from Wikipedia)




Now, some people argue that in 10-20 years, automation will have eliminated millions of jobs, never to return.  Some solution along the lines of the UBI will have to be enacted.  There is also the argument that we could look at right now, and realize that 50% of the American population cannot come up with $400 cash in an emergency today.  A basic income would be an essential portion of income for such citizens.  However, I am aware that a basic income of only $10,000 per citizen would cost about $3.2 trillion.  So if we were going to do this, we'd have to work some kinks out (bigtime), and we'd also have not to mind the fact that we've adopted the policy of Norway.

Lots of hurdles, but I'd love to get any and all feedback.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23743911 - 10/16/16 08:59 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I believe that until everyone has everything they want (or until the planet runs out of resources to provide it), I don't see the need for work going away.  How close are we to having everyone stay at home and having everything they've ever wanted provided for them?  We're not anywhere near that, and I don't see it happening for hundreds of years, if not longer.  And if it ever does ever happen, then there is really no need for a basic income - everything can simply be provided by automation.

My initial thoughts anyway.  Maybe I'll change my mind with further discussion.  :shrug:


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23743962 - 10/16/16 09:29 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I believe that a universal basic income is necessary to compensate the people for the loss of their birthright that happened when land became enclosed.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: viktor]
    #23744098 - 10/16/16 10:30 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

The idea that humans or any species has some sort of birthright to land is beyond absurd.


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: Enlil]
    #23744389 - 10/17/16 02:55 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Why?


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: viktor] * 1
    #23744538 - 10/17/16 05:33 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

UniversaL bASIC iNCOME:

Here's what we get:  One entitled class that runs everything;

A giant peon class who gets the 'universal basic income'

The idea is also known as State Capitalism or State Socialism.

Fuck that shit.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: viktor] * 2
    #23744640 - 10/17/16 06:48 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Because since the beginning of time, every species has taken what they can take based on their needs and their ability to fight off competitors for it.  "Rights" are just a social construct created by one species caught in an evolutionary half-step that gives us just enough extra processing power to be aware of our own mortality but not quite enough for us to accept it.


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OfflineEzuma
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #23745591 - 10/17/16 01:15 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I'm for universal basic income but not in every context, and not as a means to replace work but as a replacement for the welfare system (so by basic I mean very basic, as in not enough money to own land a car, a home etc, just enough to account for food and modest rented accommodations. IE, enough to keep temporarily unemployed people from becoming a nuisance as permanently unemployable bums, helping out disabled types a little more, but not creating an unemployable under-class with an incentive to not work. People would still work to attain more comfort more freedom and more self respect, and those that don't represent a minority of the species who should imo be allowed to live but not to breed.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: Ezuma]
    #23747662 - 10/18/16 12:04 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Why not let 'em buy a car? Car manufacturers are happy, make a few bucks, maybe Detroit makes a few bucks, maybe some dude ends up with a job. Let em have a phone, too. Feed some kid in china. Plus a marketing exec needs a new yacht, right? A flu shot will probably keep them from wasting ER money at some point. Let them have a taste of the nice things a job can buy. Maybe they'll decide that living for free in effectively a slum isn't worth it.

Or maybe they will decide that it is, in which case, at least they have enough money to not mess with my nice society. I'm willing to part with a few cases of beer a year.

As we get more productive, the masses can get more freebies, cause stuff will be cheaper. That should keep them from rioting. Bread and circuses. Now it's Xbox and beer. Weed and Netflix. Eventually, I'll just make them some soylent green and VR that works to all your senses. It'll be awesome. You would literally have the choice to drop out of society and live completely in a little video world. Maybe some will do it. We already don't have enough jobs, this is a great way to free some up.

Everyone says that it would be terrible if people dropped out of society, because then they are not helping. That was true for most of history, including Rome. then we discovered fertilizer and penicillin. Now we have more people than we know what to do with. Sure, birth rates are slowing down, but that's kind of slow. War doesn't work, counter intuitively. A society where you are free to spend your entire life looking at a screen and getting another food delivery in your free studio in the complex a bit up the highway from the city is a society where the modern threat of overpopulation is no longer a thing. I'm willing to pay a few extra bucks to not have you clogging up my commute to school and work, I'm willing to cough up a few extra bucks to keep you under a roof, and I'm willing to pay a couple bucks to keep the screen on and the food deliveries on time. That way, I can save a couple bucks on tax-covered hospital funding for people that want a warm bed. I can save a couple bucks paying for the drunk to get picked up by the cops. Best of all, they'll be out of the way.

Oh, and don't forget to give them some soma. Make it illegal but available and not enforced in the complexes. That will give them their daily thrill while keeping it relatively peaceful, as long as you keep some agents in the supply chains. Plus, relaxing with a full belly and a blunt in front of the TV for the night is great!

Personally, I'd come up with a way to build a super-chair that acts as a bed and is totally ergonomic. With that VR, I think people would be happy in an old re purposed prison building. Maybe throw some paint on the walls, brighten the place up. Give em a workout area, optional of course. Some of the younger folks that want to make a few extra bucks on top of their basic income can go farm some food for the place. Maybe clean, fix things, run the on-site water treatment plant. Ya know, basically keep costs down.

EDIT: I guess the overall point is: Yeah, some people are super lazy. Some people will do this. I won't, I like what I do. Thing is, I'd rather not deal with a boss/employee/student that doesn't want to be there. I'd rather deal with people that are actually interested, and pay a premium to keep the people that aren't in a hamster wheel somewhere.


Edited by Kryptos (10/18/16 12:08 AM)


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OfflineCrumist
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #23748419 - 10/18/16 09:50 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

The thing that confuses me about UBI is where the heck does it come from?

From profits from nationalized industry? It doesn't make sense for nationalized industry to operate
in a fashion to generate profit, but granting that:
Where does the profit come from then? From people who are paying 2x too much for their nationalized utilities?
Is the UBI raised from taxes? But robots do all the jobs, what will there be to tax? Are the people who own all
the robots (and the gov't) going to be okay with being the only people making a net contribution to the UBI?

I give the idea credit as it seems to cut down on wasteful consumption and might be among the few models for
a truly sustainable economy. But it strikes me the wrong way morally.


--------------------
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Re: Universal basic income *DELETED* [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23748468 - 10/18/16 10:15 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by night_shift

Reason for deletion: [delete]


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: night_shift] * 1
    #23748573 - 10/18/16 10:53 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

night_shift said:
Dude. The current USA debt is how many trillions? I can't even be bothered to wonder about this stuff any more. I mean, to me anybody who thinks this amount of debt can and will be cleared is delusional



We've reduced this level of debt before:



How did we do it?  We raised taxes on the rich.  Easy peasy if we can convince voters like qman and peyote to agree to restoring former tax rates that worked on the super rich.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: night_shift] * 1
    #23748587 - 10/18/16 10:57 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

night_shift said:
I have a couple of issues with universal basic income and the first one is precisely this: that if it is implemented it will be implemented in a way that will not change the power dynamics for the good of the people. I may be wrong about this, I don't know enough. But this is, essentially, the question of how (and even why) power is going to be redistributed.




Well, it seems the ownership class would remain intact.  That is, the small elite that owns just about everything will retain their ownership, or, down the line, their offspring or confidants will.  The idea is that, in a jobless economy, there has to be some way for the non-working middle- and lower-classes to be compensated in order to survive.  The power most likely won't be redistributed, but a basic income for the rest of the citizenry would be the way to provide a balance.  Incidentally, many people (including a few in this sub) feel that there won't be economic redistribution of any kind, and we will slowly slip into dystopia.

Quote:

My second issue is, in the imaginable world where people are not forced to work for their survival, what do we do to counter degeneration - and I'm not joking here, just one generation of people who feel "wow, I can finally rest and enjoy myself now" is enough for the next generation to be completely clueless about where their salad comes from. So this is the question of how to have all the freedom to choose not to work at all but to have all the work done too.




This is a very good point -- what do we do with everyone?  It appears almost certain that in as little as twenty years, at least half of the jobs will be gone forever, due to technological advancement (AI and automation).  We'll have to organize society around something other than employment.  Anyone's guess about how this will go down is as good as anyone else's.  The work will be done by sophisticated machines, which will, as I said, be owned by the same elite that owns all the property now.  There will simply be much less work to be done, since everything can be supplied by non-human "labor."  It will be the dream of centuries to have a situation like this, but we are totally unprepared for it and the transition, it appears likely, will not be a smooth one.  We'll dip into high unemployment for years before anyone in the public sector brings any of this up, probably, all the while saying we'll "create more jobs" when the final inability to do that is the crux of the issue.  A bot that can work around the clock with no breaks, do everything perfectly and take no pay will be more attractive than the alternative for just about every employer.  That is why something like the UBI is so crucial.  We'll see what happens.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23748607 - 10/18/16 11:06 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

night_shift said:
Dude. The current USA debt is how many trillions? I can't even be bothered to wonder about this stuff any more. I mean, to me anybody who thinks this amount of debt can and will be cleared is delusional



We've reduced this level of debt before:



How did we do it?  We raised taxes on the rich.  Easy peasy if we can convince voters like qman and peyote to agree to restoring former tax rates that worked on the super rich.




"How did we do it?"

We won the largest war in human history, do you see another world war with the US being the last man standing?


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23748617 - 10/18/16 11:09 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

From a historical context the purpose this kind of policy has been used for in the past is to create a dependant helpless class who can then be killed via starvation when their benefits are taken away. Lenin did this type of thing in the early USSR days. He was very pleased when the "useless eaters" as he called them were all dead so he could get the economy going again without the drag on it. Don't be deluded, this is a plot to kill poor people.


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OfflineCrumist
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: Ellis Dee] * 2
    #23748637 - 10/18/16 11:19 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

If you kill the poor people, someone is going to have to take their place and clean the toilets.


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: Crumist]
    #23748653 - 10/18/16 11:28 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Crumist said:
If you kill the poor people, someone is going to have to take their place and clean the toilets.



The "useless eaters" don't clean toilets. They don't do anything really except sit around watching cable tv and eating cheetos. Janitors and people who have menial jobs would retain their menial jobs. Its just the useless eaters who consume and have no usefulness that will be slain. Thats the point Lenin got to.


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Re: Universal basic income *DELETED* [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23748857 - 10/18/16 12:51 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by night_shift

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Invisiblenight_shift
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Re: Universal basic income *DELETED* [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23748863 - 10/18/16 12:55 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by night_shift

Reason for deletion: [delete]


Edited by night_shift (10/18/16 12:56 PM)


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OfflineSpanishfly
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: Kryptos]
    #23748873 - 10/18/16 01:00 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Why not let 'em buy a car?




Nazi philosophy - called the Volkswagen.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: night_shift]
    #23748876 - 10/18/16 01:01 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

The graph is our debt/GDP ratio over time.

The blue and red represents the political party of the President during that time.


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Re: Universal basic income *DELETED* [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23748909 - 10/18/16 01:15 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: night_shift] * 1
    #23748937 - 10/18/16 01:25 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

night_shift said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
We've reduced this level of debt before:




Reduced isn't the same as cleared.



It's not, but we could have cleared it if Reagan hadn't reversed the downward trend with his tax cuts for the super rich.


--------------------
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OfflineEzuma
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: Kryptos]
    #23748953 - 10/18/16 01:32 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Why not let 'em buy a car? Car manufacturers are happy, make a few bucks, maybe Detroit makes a few bucks, maybe some dude ends up with a job. Let em have a phone, too. Feed some kid in china. Plus a marketing exec needs a new yacht, right? A flu shot will probably keep them from wasting ER money at some point. Let them have a taste of the nice things a job can buy. Maybe they'll decide that living for free in effectively a slum isn't worth it.




cars are old-hat, really in urban environments most people don't need one. Expensive for the government to upkeep roads and services, where increased public transit could make cars unnecessary in cities. Imo that's the way to go at least in major urban centres, in the countryside you have a point, cars are pretty vital.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: night_shift]
    #23749136 - 10/18/16 02:32 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

night_shift said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Well, it seems the ownership class would remain intact.  That is, the small elite that owns just about everything will retain their ownership, or, down the line, their offspring or confidants will.




Yes, this is what I have a problem with. The only reason I like the universal basic income idea is for its potential to redistribute power; I am not interested in it in case it doesn't do this, and it seems it only has chances in parts of the world that are mature enough to implement it without redistributing power. So the bottom line is it sounds very good but it basically is the same old same old.




Yeah, I don't see ownership being transferred anytime soon.  The UBI would redistribute money, but not power.  I don't know about an economic revolution being "same old same old" but you have a point, for sure.

Quote:

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
The idea is that, in a jobless economy, there has to be some way for the non-working middle- and lower-classes to be compensated in order to survive.  The power most likely won't be redistributed, but a basic income for the rest of the citizenry would be the way to provide a balance.  Incidentally, many people (including a few in this sub) feel that there won't be economic redistribution of any kind, and we will slowly slip into dystopia.




Dystopia is as impossible as utopia. I think the most reasonable point of view would acknowledge that things change and the most reasonable position would be to stay open to change. Technically, this is what's been going on. The fucked up part, at least according to me, is that I wish for a re-distribution of power yet this depends on those holding the power and guess whether they want to let go or not. So I think the avrage person is fucked either way and they get fucked in more complex ways as time goes by; in the end, the situation gets so fucked up that the person is willing to say "fuck this shit and just give me the gun" and this is what happens.




I dunno, I think our evolution to a dystopia is more likely than one to a utopia.  A utopia requires unlimited resources, an infinite supply of everything.  Dystopia only requires the rich jettisoning everyone else without something like a UBI.

The average person definitely does get fucked, and, as you say, in increasingly complex ways.  Violence tends to be where things go, historically.  Once again, if the mass of people isn't content to be subordinate to an elite class, it's a problem, because while wealth can be redistributed, it's quite unlikely that the actual mechanisms of power will be anytime soon in the West.

Quote:

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
It appears almost certain that in as little as twenty years, at least half of the jobs will be gone forever, due to technological advancement (AI and automation).  We'll have to organize society around something other than employment.  Anyone's guess about how this will go down is as good as anyone else's.  The work will be done by sophisticated machines, which will, as I said, be owned by the same elite that owns all the property now.  There will simply be much less work to be done, since everything can be supplied by non-human "labor."  It will be the dream of centuries to have a situation like this, but we are totally unprepared for it and the transition, it appears likely, will not be a smooth one.




I think we're already there. The current answer to this is providing "services". Lovely.




You're right.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #23804424 - 11/05/16 07:04 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Interesting article from yahoo news:

Quote:

Elon Musk: Robots will take your jobs, government will have to pay your wage


Computers, intelligent machines, and robots seem like the workforce of the future. And as more and more jobs are replaced by technology, people will have less work to do and ultimately will be sustained by payments from the government, predicts Elon Musk , the iconic Silicon Valley futurist who is the founder and CEO of SolarCity (SCTY), Tesla (TSLA), and SpaceX.

According to Musk, there really won't be any other options.

"There is a pretty good chance we end up with a universal basic income, or something like that, due to automation," says Musk to CNBC. "Yeah, I am not sure what else one would do. I think that is what would happen."

In a country with universal basic income, each individual gets a regular check from the government. Switzerland considered instituting a universal basic income of 2,500 Swiss francs ($2578) a month this summer. Voters ultimately rejected the plan , but it sparked a broad, global conversation.

Also this summer, President Obama addressed the idea of a universal basic income in an interview with the Director of MIT's Media Lab, Joi Ito, and Scott Dadich, editor in chief of WIRED: "Whether a universal income is the right model — is it gonna be accepted by a broad base of people? — that's a debate that we'll be having over the next 10 or 20 years."

While society is slowly mulling over the idea of a basic human income, technology is rapidly changing the global workforce.

For example, in the future, semi-trailer trucks will be able to drive themselves. And though that won't become the status quo for a while, it will mean that there won't be a need for quite as many truck drivers, says Musk.

Some drivers will transition to fleet operators, responsible for monitoring the status of a fleet of trucks, not any one individual truck. If a truck appears to be having issues, then the fleet operator would come in remotely and solve the problem.

"Actually, it's probably a more interesting job than just driving one [truck]," says Musk.

It's likely those truck drivers who no longer have a job might see the situation differently.

But the optimistic Musk sees increased automation as an overall benefit to society, even an opportunity.

"People will have time to do other things, more complex things, more interesting things," says Musk. "Certainly more leisure time."

A long horizon of leisure time may sound good, but it can also be an intimating prospect. For many, having a job and someplace to be each day is grounding and gives purpose to life.

Indeed, Musk himself is driven by his professional ambitions. He hasn't needed to work to pay his bills for well over a decade. In 2002, Musk sold PayPal , the online payments company he co-founded, to eBay in a deal that put $165 million in his pocket. Instead of kicking back, he has launched multiple companies and is trying to get to Mars.

Even though Musk's ambition may be more outsized than most, many Americans would probably also want to continue doing some kind of work. Binge watching Netflix is only enjoyable for so long.


https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/elon-musk-robots-jobs-government-181956572.html




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OfflineTipote
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #23805919 - 11/06/16 09:51 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

i feel like Musk is right and this is an inevitable development.

People 60 years ago thought we would be working much less in the present day but we work more for less.

I see the source of conflict - it is hard to transition from the protestant structure of capitalism.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: Tipote]
    #23806146 - 11/06/16 11:11 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Yes indeed, and it's going to be rocky re-orienting modern society around some locus other than employment, which is really what all this makes necessary.  I anticipate great turbulence, since once again we will probably not take intelligent measures until it is too late.


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OfflineTipote
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23806199 - 11/06/16 11:24 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

i think it will be resisted in a big way, there is an incentive in keeping people in unnecessary work - keeps them too busy for other stuff.

In moments when I have been more activist and going to demos etc, it is always difficult to fit in with a full time job.


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Re: Universal basic income [Re: Tipote]
    #23806305 - 11/06/16 11:54 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Great point. :thumbup:


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23811033 - 11/07/16 08:43 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Didn't they have a system in like, 17th century UK where unemployed/debtors would be forced to just break rocks for no reason but to keep them busy, and paid with food and shelter?

As for:
Quote:

Ezuma said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Why not let 'em buy a car? Car manufacturers are happy, make a few bucks, maybe Detroit makes a few bucks, maybe some dude ends up with a job. Let em have a phone, too. Feed some kid in china. Plus a marketing exec needs a new yacht, right? A flu shot will probably keep them from wasting ER money at some point. Let them have a taste of the nice things a job can buy. Maybe they'll decide that living for free in effectively a slum isn't worth it.




cars are old-hat, really in urban environments most people don't need one. Expensive for the government to upkeep roads and services, where increased public transit could make cars unnecessary in cities. Imo that's the way to go at least in major urban centres, in the countryside you have a point, cars are pretty vital.




Quote:

Spanishfly said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Why not let 'em buy a car?




Nazi philosophy - called the Volkswagen.





The car in this case is a metaphor for literally any good. As long as you buy iPhones, an apple exec gets to buy a new yacht and some poor kid in China gets to eat. As long as you buy a laptop, a Sony (or whatever) exec gets a new yacht and a poor kid in Taiwan gets to eat. As long as you buy a car, Detroit house prices stay above 4 figures. As long as you buy a gallon of milk, some dairy cow doesn't become a burger.

The point is, adding money to the bottom lubricates the whole system the whole way up. Money is the one of the few things where gravity doesn't apply normally.


Edited by Kryptos (11/07/16 08:50 PM)


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OfflineCrumist
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: Kryptos]
    #23811162 - 11/07/16 09:39 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Wait, they made prisoners break rocks for no reason? I thought they were doing some kind of quarry work or producing gravel.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: Crumist]
    #23842816 - 11/17/16 05:54 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

http://bigthink.com/natalie-shoemaker/canada-testing-a-system-where-it-gives-its-poorest-citizens-1320-a-month?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#link_time=1479241883

Quote:

Ontario is poised to become a testing ground for basic income in 2017 as part of a pilot program. Hugh Segal is the special advisor to the Canadian province and a former senator. He believes a supplemental income of $1,320 a month could provide a viable path to poverty abatement—effectively replacing welfare programs and a system he described as “seriously demeaning” in a paper discussing this basic income pilot project.

Segal suggests this pilot project would provide real evidence to whether basic income is the solution to poverty many governments have been seeking. It would answer many of the burning questions and concerns regarding such a system:

Can basic income policies provide a more efficient, less intrusive, and less stigmatizing way of delivering income support for those now living in poverty?
Can those policies also encourage work, relieve financial and time poverty, and reduce economic marginalization?
Can a basic income reduce cost pressures in other areas of government spending, such as healthcare?
Can a basic income strengthen the incentive to work, by responsibly helping those who are working but still living below the poverty line?
In the United States, welfare programs are the staple of big government—a Republican nightmare. Paul Ryan has indicated he wants to phase-out these entitlement programs, however, he’s also concerned about solving the poverty issue in America. If Ontario’s proposed three-year project provides compelling evidence that basic income could do both, we may have a bi-partisan solution.

Segal is a conservative. In his view, welfare programs help alleviate some of the symptoms of poverty, but provide no long-term program to get people out.

“Testing a basic income is a humane and useful way to measure how so many of the costs of poverty (in terms of productivity, health, policing, and other community costs, to name only a few) might be diminished, while poverty itself is reduced and work is encouraged,” Segal says in the report.

A guaranteed income would provide a floor no one would fall beneath and citizens would receive it regardless of employment status. Conservatives like it because it provides an elegant solution that could replace the welfare state and the left love it because it provides a greater social architecture.

However, many question how giving people free money could fix many of our socio-economic issues. But we won’t know if we don’t try—if we don’t do the research to find a solution, which is what Segal suggests.

"There cannot be, nor should there be, any guarantees about what results a pilot might generate,” Segal writes. “The objective behind this endeavor should be to generate an evidence-base for policy development, without bias or pre-determined conclusion."

This test of basic income won’t be the first. Researchers and governments across the globe have started implementing similar tests to see what happens when you give people no-strings-attached cash. Finland, the Dutch city of Utricht, and Kenya all have plans to create programs to test this system. Segal believes a program in Ontario could add to this growing body of research.

"This Ontario initiative takes place at a time when other jurisdictions, in Canada and abroad, are working in different ways toward a Basic Income approach to better reduce poverty,” he wrote. “The opportunity to learn from and engage with these other initiatives should not be overlooked, nor should approaches being tested elsewhere be necessarily re-tested here."

A study in Manitoba, Canada done back in the 1970s provides us with an idea of what a community receiving basic income would look like. Many believe people would stop working, and become lazy. They would be half right, some people did stop working in Manitoba. But when you look at the data a little closer, we begin to see how poverty starts at an early age and how basic income could help them get out.

Allow me to explain: People in the town received a set income of $9,000 a year (by today's standards) from the government. Evelyn Forget, an economist and professor at the University of Manitoba, who looked over the data from the study says there was a 9% reduction in working hours among two main groups of citizens.

Here’s the kicker: New mothers were using their additional income to extend their maternity leaves and spend more time with their infants, and teenage boys were using that income to stay in school.

“When we interviewed people, we discovered that prior to the experiment, a lot of people from low-income families, a lot of boys in particular, were under a fair amount of family pressure to become self-supporting when they turned 16 and leave school. When Mincome came along, those families decided that they could afford to keep their sons in high school just a little bit longer,” Forget told PRI in an interview.

Poverty affects all of us in some way (at some point 3 in 5 Americans experience it personally in their lifetime). All of us pay for its upkeep through taxes and can see how it wears down the institutions within our local communities. Basic income could be the solution. We have some data; we need more in order to make the proper call.

Ontario’s experiment will show what would happen if people between the age of 18 to 65, living below the poverty line, received a monthly income of $1,320 ($1,820 if they are disabled). Would they be better able to save and find work?

“There’s no magic bullet,” said Jennefer Laidley of the Income Security Advocacy Centre. “So it’s key that government is now exploring various solutions — reforming existing social assistance programs, improving the quality of work, and considering basic income.”




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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: Kryptos]
    #23843045 - 11/17/16 06:50 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

You guys wanna support me whilst I play golf? Pass this:lol:

***there is no fucking way I'd work if this was law


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23843088 - 11/17/16 07:02 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

It would be law because there were no jobs, and you wouldn't be working in any case.


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OfflineCrumist
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23843243 - 11/17/16 07:48 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Is UBI only ever intended to work after we hit some kind of "post-scarcity" world with 100% automation?

Makes it sound far further off than it first seemed


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'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: Crumist]
    #23843255 - 11/17/16 07:54 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crumist said:
Is UBI only ever intended to work after we hit some kind of "post-scarcity" world with 100% automation?

Makes it sound far further off than it first seemed




Well I think if automation reaches a certain threshold, and GDP remains high, it could be doable (and/or necessary).  Not all of the jobs will go away at the same time.  But who really knows.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: hostileuniverse] * 1
    #23844334 - 11/18/16 07:02 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I would argue (from my pretty comfortable position as a grad student in the US) that we do live in a post scarcity society. I don't remember the last time I spent a night hungry without spending my food money on beer, and I don't remember a day when I couldn't find beer within 20 minutes (after I got a fake/turned 21).

I also haven't seen many gas/water/power shortages that were not advertised via hurricane, same with shelter shortages. Heck, I once was feeling particularly lazy after crashing on a friend's couch, and Had a toothbrush, toothpaste, and deodorant *delivered*. Even though the store was like, 500 feet away.

Some of this may not apply to people living in the town of Bumfuck, Nowhere (population: three tumbleweeds, Trump supporters, based on county election results) but I definitely live in a post scarcity state.

I'm sure the CEOs of big companies disagree. Solid gold yachts are surprisingly scarce, what with gold being a terrible material for making boats and they all sink right away.

Anyway, my point is that productivity has exploded in the last 70 years, to the tune of 300-400%. Normally, this would mean that people work less, but for some reason, people on average now work more and just get paid less.

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
You guys wanna support me whilst I play golf? Pass this:lol:

***there is no fucking way I'd work if this was law




Yeah, I'd still work, cause I've lived like this, and I like having disposable income. I'll even laugh at your lazy welfare queen ass every time I see you. All two times, because honestly, I would much rather just pay some money to ship every lazy fuck like you that works only to punch a time clock and get out to some giant concrete box, where you get free food, a toilet, an internet connection, and a VR headset. Hell, I'll even pay for you to get an ounce of weed every month to keep you happy, and more importantly, out of my fucking way.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23845561 - 11/18/16 03:20 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
You guys wanna support me whilst I play golf? Pass this:lol:

***there is no fucking way I'd work if this was law



you're basically as lame-duck as one can get. :lol:

golf? why not create something?


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