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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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The graph is our debt/GDP ratio over time.
The blue and red represents the political party of the President during that time.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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night_shift
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Post deleted by night_shift
Reason for deletion: [delete]
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: night_shift] 1
#23748937 - 10/18/16 01:25 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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night_shift said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: We've reduced this level of debt before:
Reduced isn't the same as cleared.
It's not, but we could have cleared it if Reagan hadn't reversed the downward trend with his tax cuts for the super rich.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Ezuma
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: Kryptos]
#23748953 - 10/18/16 01:32 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Kryptos said: Why not let 'em buy a car? Car manufacturers are happy, make a few bucks, maybe Detroit makes a few bucks, maybe some dude ends up with a job. Let em have a phone, too. Feed some kid in china. Plus a marketing exec needs a new yacht, right? A flu shot will probably keep them from wasting ER money at some point. Let them have a taste of the nice things a job can buy. Maybe they'll decide that living for free in effectively a slum isn't worth it.
cars are old-hat, really in urban environments most people don't need one. Expensive for the government to upkeep roads and services, where increased public transit could make cars unnecessary in cities. Imo that's the way to go at least in major urban centres, in the countryside you have a point, cars are pretty vital.
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DividedQuantum
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Registered: 12/06/13
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Quote:
night_shift said:
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DividedQuantum said: Well, it seems the ownership class would remain intact. That is, the small elite that owns just about everything will retain their ownership, or, down the line, their offspring or confidants will.
Yes, this is what I have a problem with. The only reason I like the universal basic income idea is for its potential to redistribute power; I am not interested in it in case it doesn't do this, and it seems it only has chances in parts of the world that are mature enough to implement it without redistributing power. So the bottom line is it sounds very good but it basically is the same old same old.
Yeah, I don't see ownership being transferred anytime soon. The UBI would redistribute money, but not power. I don't know about an economic revolution being "same old same old" but you have a point, for sure.
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DividedQuantum said: The idea is that, in a jobless economy, there has to be some way for the non-working middle- and lower-classes to be compensated in order to survive. The power most likely won't be redistributed, but a basic income for the rest of the citizenry would be the way to provide a balance. Incidentally, many people (including a few in this sub) feel that there won't be economic redistribution of any kind, and we will slowly slip into dystopia.
Dystopia is as impossible as utopia. I think the most reasonable point of view would acknowledge that things change and the most reasonable position would be to stay open to change. Technically, this is what's been going on. The fucked up part, at least according to me, is that I wish for a re-distribution of power yet this depends on those holding the power and guess whether they want to let go or not. So I think the avrage person is fucked either way and they get fucked in more complex ways as time goes by; in the end, the situation gets so fucked up that the person is willing to say "fuck this shit and just give me the gun" and this is what happens.
I dunno, I think our evolution to a dystopia is more likely than one to a utopia. A utopia requires unlimited resources, an infinite supply of everything. Dystopia only requires the rich jettisoning everyone else without something like a UBI.
The average person definitely does get fucked, and, as you say, in increasingly complex ways. Violence tends to be where things go, historically. Once again, if the mass of people isn't content to be subordinate to an elite class, it's a problem, because while wealth can be redistributed, it's quite unlikely that the actual mechanisms of power will be anytime soon in the West.
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DividedQuantum said: It appears almost certain that in as little as twenty years, at least half of the jobs will be gone forever, due to technological advancement (AI and automation). We'll have to organize society around something other than employment. Anyone's guess about how this will go down is as good as anyone else's. The work will be done by sophisticated machines, which will, as I said, be owned by the same elite that owns all the property now. There will simply be much less work to be done, since everything can be supplied by non-human "labor." It will be the dream of centuries to have a situation like this, but we are totally unprepared for it and the transition, it appears likely, will not be a smooth one.
I think we're already there. The current answer to this is providing "services". Lovely.
You're right.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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DividedQuantum
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Interesting article from yahoo news:
Quote:
Elon Musk: Robots will take your jobs, government will have to pay your wage
Computers, intelligent machines, and robots seem like the workforce of the future. And as more and more jobs are replaced by technology, people will have less work to do and ultimately will be sustained by payments from the government, predicts Elon Musk , the iconic Silicon Valley futurist who is the founder and CEO of SolarCity (SCTY), Tesla (TSLA), and SpaceX.
According to Musk, there really won't be any other options.
"There is a pretty good chance we end up with a universal basic income, or something like that, due to automation," says Musk to CNBC. "Yeah, I am not sure what else one would do. I think that is what would happen."
In a country with universal basic income, each individual gets a regular check from the government. Switzerland considered instituting a universal basic income of 2,500 Swiss francs ($2578) a month this summer. Voters ultimately rejected the plan , but it sparked a broad, global conversation.
Also this summer, President Obama addressed the idea of a universal basic income in an interview with the Director of MIT's Media Lab, Joi Ito, and Scott Dadich, editor in chief of WIRED: "Whether a universal income is the right model — is it gonna be accepted by a broad base of people? — that's a debate that we'll be having over the next 10 or 20 years."
While society is slowly mulling over the idea of a basic human income, technology is rapidly changing the global workforce.
For example, in the future, semi-trailer trucks will be able to drive themselves. And though that won't become the status quo for a while, it will mean that there won't be a need for quite as many truck drivers, says Musk.
Some drivers will transition to fleet operators, responsible for monitoring the status of a fleet of trucks, not any one individual truck. If a truck appears to be having issues, then the fleet operator would come in remotely and solve the problem.
"Actually, it's probably a more interesting job than just driving one [truck]," says Musk.
It's likely those truck drivers who no longer have a job might see the situation differently.
But the optimistic Musk sees increased automation as an overall benefit to society, even an opportunity.
"People will have time to do other things, more complex things, more interesting things," says Musk. "Certainly more leisure time."
A long horizon of leisure time may sound good, but it can also be an intimating prospect. For many, having a job and someplace to be each day is grounding and gives purpose to life.
Indeed, Musk himself is driven by his professional ambitions. He hasn't needed to work to pay his bills for well over a decade. In 2002, Musk sold PayPal , the online payments company he co-founded, to eBay in a deal that put $165 million in his pocket. Instead of kicking back, he has launched multiple companies and is trying to get to Mars.
Even though Musk's ambition may be more outsized than most, many Americans would probably also want to continue doing some kind of work. Binge watching Netflix is only enjoyable for so long.
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/elon-musk-robots-jobs-government-181956572.html
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Tipote
petty crook and transvestite


Registered: 10/28/11
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i feel like Musk is right and this is an inevitable development.
People 60 years ago thought we would be working much less in the present day but we work more for less.
I see the source of conflict - it is hard to transition from the protestant structure of capitalism.
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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength
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DividedQuantum
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: Tipote]
#23806146 - 11/06/16 11:11 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yes indeed, and it's going to be rocky re-orienting modern society around some locus other than employment, which is really what all this makes necessary. I anticipate great turbulence, since once again we will probably not take intelligent measures until it is too late.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Tipote
petty crook and transvestite


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i think it will be resisted in a big way, there is an incentive in keeping people in unnecessary work - keeps them too busy for other stuff.
In moments when I have been more activist and going to demos etc, it is always difficult to fit in with a full time job.
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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength
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DividedQuantum
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: Tipote]
#23806305 - 11/06/16 11:54 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Great point.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Kryptos
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Didn't they have a system in like, 17th century UK where unemployed/debtors would be forced to just break rocks for no reason but to keep them busy, and paid with food and shelter?
As for:
Quote:
Ezuma said:
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Kryptos said: Why not let 'em buy a car? Car manufacturers are happy, make a few bucks, maybe Detroit makes a few bucks, maybe some dude ends up with a job. Let em have a phone, too. Feed some kid in china. Plus a marketing exec needs a new yacht, right? A flu shot will probably keep them from wasting ER money at some point. Let them have a taste of the nice things a job can buy. Maybe they'll decide that living for free in effectively a slum isn't worth it.
cars are old-hat, really in urban environments most people don't need one. Expensive for the government to upkeep roads and services, where increased public transit could make cars unnecessary in cities. Imo that's the way to go at least in major urban centres, in the countryside you have a point, cars are pretty vital.
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Spanishfly said:
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Kryptos said: Why not let 'em buy a car?
Nazi philosophy - called the Volkswagen.
The car in this case is a metaphor for literally any good. As long as you buy iPhones, an apple exec gets to buy a new yacht and some poor kid in China gets to eat. As long as you buy a laptop, a Sony (or whatever) exec gets a new yacht and a poor kid in Taiwan gets to eat. As long as you buy a car, Detroit house prices stay above 4 figures. As long as you buy a gallon of milk, some dairy cow doesn't become a burger.
The point is, adding money to the bottom lubricates the whole system the whole way up. Money is the one of the few things where gravity doesn't apply normally.
Edited by Kryptos (11/07/16 08:50 PM)
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Crumist
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: Kryptos]
#23811162 - 11/07/16 09:39 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Wait, they made prisoners break rocks for no reason? I thought they were doing some kind of quarry work or producing gravel.
-------------------- 'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704
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Kryptos
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: Crumist]
#23842816 - 11/17/16 05:54 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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http://bigthink.com/natalie-shoemaker/canada-testing-a-system-where-it-gives-its-poorest-citizens-1320-a-month?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#link_time=1479241883
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Ontario is poised to become a testing ground for basic income in 2017 as part of a pilot program. Hugh Segal is the special advisor to the Canadian province and a former senator. He believes a supplemental income of $1,320 a month could provide a viable path to poverty abatement—effectively replacing welfare programs and a system he described as “seriously demeaning” in a paper discussing this basic income pilot project.
Segal suggests this pilot project would provide real evidence to whether basic income is the solution to poverty many governments have been seeking. It would answer many of the burning questions and concerns regarding such a system:
Can basic income policies provide a more efficient, less intrusive, and less stigmatizing way of delivering income support for those now living in poverty? Can those policies also encourage work, relieve financial and time poverty, and reduce economic marginalization? Can a basic income reduce cost pressures in other areas of government spending, such as healthcare? Can a basic income strengthen the incentive to work, by responsibly helping those who are working but still living below the poverty line? In the United States, welfare programs are the staple of big government—a Republican nightmare. Paul Ryan has indicated he wants to phase-out these entitlement programs, however, he’s also concerned about solving the poverty issue in America. If Ontario’s proposed three-year project provides compelling evidence that basic income could do both, we may have a bi-partisan solution.
Segal is a conservative. In his view, welfare programs help alleviate some of the symptoms of poverty, but provide no long-term program to get people out.
“Testing a basic income is a humane and useful way to measure how so many of the costs of poverty (in terms of productivity, health, policing, and other community costs, to name only a few) might be diminished, while poverty itself is reduced and work is encouraged,” Segal says in the report.
A guaranteed income would provide a floor no one would fall beneath and citizens would receive it regardless of employment status. Conservatives like it because it provides an elegant solution that could replace the welfare state and the left love it because it provides a greater social architecture.
However, many question how giving people free money could fix many of our socio-economic issues. But we won’t know if we don’t try—if we don’t do the research to find a solution, which is what Segal suggests.
"There cannot be, nor should there be, any guarantees about what results a pilot might generate,” Segal writes. “The objective behind this endeavor should be to generate an evidence-base for policy development, without bias or pre-determined conclusion."
This test of basic income won’t be the first. Researchers and governments across the globe have started implementing similar tests to see what happens when you give people no-strings-attached cash. Finland, the Dutch city of Utricht, and Kenya all have plans to create programs to test this system. Segal believes a program in Ontario could add to this growing body of research.
"This Ontario initiative takes place at a time when other jurisdictions, in Canada and abroad, are working in different ways toward a Basic Income approach to better reduce poverty,” he wrote. “The opportunity to learn from and engage with these other initiatives should not be overlooked, nor should approaches being tested elsewhere be necessarily re-tested here."
A study in Manitoba, Canada done back in the 1970s provides us with an idea of what a community receiving basic income would look like. Many believe people would stop working, and become lazy. They would be half right, some people did stop working in Manitoba. But when you look at the data a little closer, we begin to see how poverty starts at an early age and how basic income could help them get out.
Allow me to explain: People in the town received a set income of $9,000 a year (by today's standards) from the government. Evelyn Forget, an economist and professor at the University of Manitoba, who looked over the data from the study says there was a 9% reduction in working hours among two main groups of citizens.
Here’s the kicker: New mothers were using their additional income to extend their maternity leaves and spend more time with their infants, and teenage boys were using that income to stay in school.
“When we interviewed people, we discovered that prior to the experiment, a lot of people from low-income families, a lot of boys in particular, were under a fair amount of family pressure to become self-supporting when they turned 16 and leave school. When Mincome came along, those families decided that they could afford to keep their sons in high school just a little bit longer,” Forget told PRI in an interview.
Poverty affects all of us in some way (at some point 3 in 5 Americans experience it personally in their lifetime). All of us pay for its upkeep through taxes and can see how it wears down the institutions within our local communities. Basic income could be the solution. We have some data; we need more in order to make the proper call.
Ontario’s experiment will show what would happen if people between the age of 18 to 65, living below the poverty line, received a monthly income of $1,320 ($1,820 if they are disabled). Would they be better able to save and find work?
“There’s no magic bullet,” said Jennefer Laidley of the Income Security Advocacy Centre. “So it’s key that government is now exploring various solutions — reforming existing social assistance programs, improving the quality of work, and considering basic income.”
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hostileuniverse
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: Kryptos]
#23843045 - 11/17/16 06:50 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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You guys wanna support me whilst I play golf? Pass this
***there is no fucking way I'd work if this was law
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DividedQuantum
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It would be law because there were no jobs, and you wouldn't be working in any case.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Crumist
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Is UBI only ever intended to work after we hit some kind of "post-scarcity" world with 100% automation?
Makes it sound far further off than it first seemed
-------------------- 'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704
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DividedQuantum
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Re: Universal basic income [Re: Crumist]
#23843255 - 11/17/16 07:54 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Crumist said: Is UBI only ever intended to work after we hit some kind of "post-scarcity" world with 100% automation?
Makes it sound far further off than it first seemed
Well I think if automation reaches a certain threshold, and GDP remains high, it could be doable (and/or necessary). Not all of the jobs will go away at the same time. But who really knows.
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Kryptos
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I would argue (from my pretty comfortable position as a grad student in the US) that we do live in a post scarcity society. I don't remember the last time I spent a night hungry without spending my food money on beer, and I don't remember a day when I couldn't find beer within 20 minutes (after I got a fake/turned 21).
I also haven't seen many gas/water/power shortages that were not advertised via hurricane, same with shelter shortages. Heck, I once was feeling particularly lazy after crashing on a friend's couch, and Had a toothbrush, toothpaste, and deodorant *delivered*. Even though the store was like, 500 feet away.
Some of this may not apply to people living in the town of Bumfuck, Nowhere (population: three tumbleweeds, Trump supporters, based on county election results) but I definitely live in a post scarcity state.
I'm sure the CEOs of big companies disagree. Solid gold yachts are surprisingly scarce, what with gold being a terrible material for making boats and they all sink right away.
Anyway, my point is that productivity has exploded in the last 70 years, to the tune of 300-400%. Normally, this would mean that people work less, but for some reason, people on average now work more and just get paid less.
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hostileuniverse said: You guys wanna support me whilst I play golf? Pass this
***there is no fucking way I'd work if this was law
Yeah, I'd still work, cause I've lived like this, and I like having disposable income. I'll even laugh at your lazy welfare queen ass every time I see you. All two times, because honestly, I would much rather just pay some money to ship every lazy fuck like you that works only to punch a time clock and get out to some giant concrete box, where you get free food, a toilet, an internet connection, and a VR headset. Hell, I'll even pay for you to get an ounce of weed every month to keep you happy, and more importantly, out of my fucking way.
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


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Quote:
hostileuniverse said: You guys wanna support me whilst I play golf? Pass this
***there is no fucking way I'd work if this was law
you're basically as lame-duck as one can get. 
golf? why not create something?
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