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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
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Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep
#23741899 - 10/16/16 09:53 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Here is The Ratio Method with millet. Was just wondering if anybody happened to know a good ratio to use for standard WBS or other grains.
Can't believe I've never seen a tek like this, always hated waiting overnight for grains to soak, and the messes that can be created when simmering/straining/drying.
Seems like a great noob method.
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Terpfreak
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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23741946 - 10/16/16 10:06 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Isn't the point of soaking and simmering to kill anything that has been made vulnerable by the soak?
Skipping that is okay? I don't doubt you, just confused.
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Psilosopherr
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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: Terpfreak]
#23741964 - 10/16/16 10:12 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'm brand new to the idea but people seem to have success with it. I thought the same thing as you.
The soaking/simmering to kill endospores seems like it may have been made up to explain methodology
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azur
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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23741970 - 10/16/16 10:14 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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The soaking is to germinate bacterial endospores so that they can be more easily killed during the pc cycle. The simmering is to add moisture.
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azur
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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: azur]
#23741981 - 10/16/16 10:17 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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And while some grains may be low in endospore count, others may be high. You won't know until you get fucked in the ass. Therefore, I always recommend soaking as a precaution and I always will soak. You might get away without soaking 1,000 times, but the one time you didn't soak and should have, you'll be wishing you did.
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cronicr



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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: azur] 2
#23741996 - 10/16/16 10:23 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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We soak to hydrate...that's it.
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azur
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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: cronicr]
#23742012 - 10/16/16 10:29 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Then why do you simmer cron? Why does rr say soaking for endospores in his videos? Why does Paul stamets say the same?
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ChristaphonZ


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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: azur]
#23742066 - 10/16/16 10:48 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Soak to germinate endospores. Simmer to get right amount of water content. PC to kill all germinated spores.
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bodhisatta 
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Registered: 04/30/13
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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: azur] 2
#23742071 - 10/16/16 10:50 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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staments is a well known say whatever he feels like, half of everything he's ever spoke is bullshit. not to detract from his work but... the guy is fucking looney.
and RR has been wrong many times. he isn't a biologist.
Bacteria increases their populations. soaking only makes more endospores.
yes endospores form more rapidly when nutrition depletes or conditions are harsh. but that doesn't mean they don't form at all times. some subset of the bacterial population is forming spores at any given time.
also the pressure cooker kills endospores, there's no need to germinate them, or get them ready for pressure cooking... that's some old hand old info. it is true that a higher CFU load is harder to sterilize but the endospores we have in grains are easily destroyed by a pressure cooker
they validate pressurecookers/autoclaves with much harder more resilient endospores than the ones found in grain

this is out of beer wort still full of nutrition, YET bacteria still from endospores. if conditions were to get harsh you would see something like 99.9% of the bacteria forming spores. but before conditions ever get harsh a large portion still forms spores, the bacteria are always trying to increase their survival and numbers, they've been around way longer than anything else on the planet. their survival strategy doesn't mandate they only make more endospores when things are really shitty, no they make endospores all the fucking time. and soaking only makes more of them than you start with.
here's some more clostridium from barely grains
 some forming spores, some spores already present, some of the clostridium rods just chilling out.
the population of spores will always increase under any conditions until you get to the conditions where killing starts.
so soak away all you want because you heard RR say but you're only making your CFUs higher. unless your soak water is over 170F that is
Edited by bodhisatta (10/16/16 10:57 AM)
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azur
God of Fuck



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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: bodhisatta]
#23742104 - 10/16/16 11:00 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't want to butt heads. Too much real stuff to do. Here is an interesting thread, which you are part of. https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22612598/fpart/all
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: azur]
#23742133 - 10/16/16 11:08 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't simmer AZ. ..but reality is endospores simply need to be hydrated not germinated.
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cronicr



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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: cronicr]
#23742165 - 10/16/16 11:18 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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People started soaking grain because the old measuring method caused alot of busted grains..simmering will serve two purposes one being to up the moisture content two being to steam dry...once an endospores germinated it's not an endospores and if we simply germinated endospores to make it easy to kill we would simply be able to steam grains like pf jars.
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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Terpfreak
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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: cronicr]
#23742182 - 10/16/16 11:23 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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So only simmer no soak? Thanks to everyone who shared info
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: Terpfreak]
#23742197 - 10/16/16 11:25 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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With small grains like millet and wbs I only soak no simmer...or I use fooman method so one or the other..that wasn't much help was it RR changed his tune about endospores years ago btw.
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ChristaphonZ


Registered: 09/10/16
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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: cronicr]
#23742198 - 10/16/16 11:26 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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When I soak it is only 12 hours and I soak coffee and gypsum into the grain. I feed our cattle in the winter sprouted oats or barely. We soak before we put them in trays as they sprout a lot quicker. (5 days from sprout to feed) Soaking adds a lot of water or in my case coffee and gypsum.
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cronicr



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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: ChristaphonZ]
#23742203 - 10/16/16 11:27 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't remember the math off the top of my head but i think around 40% moisture by weight is what ya want..dont take my word on that though
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azur
God of Fuck



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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: cronicr]
#23742237 - 10/16/16 11:41 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I have the numbers around here somewhere. Let me look
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mushboy
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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: cronicr]
#23742242 - 10/16/16 11:43 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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whenever i prep WBS(i only use WBS) i just soak the shit for 24hrs.
ive read the no soak no simmer stuff but whats the rush?
a batch of jars in my pc takes 2ish hours to cook. and another 4-6 to cool. so in a normal day of being awake thats like 2 batches a day at most.
im not hating on the 'time saving' so much as i do not understand the point to no soak/no simmer.
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Terpfreak
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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: mushboy]
#23742266 - 10/16/16 11:50 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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For me personally, I have chronic pain, so anything I don't have to do as a 110 pound chick is a godsend. (Straining the giant colanders fucking hurts).
But i agree, If soaking and simmering doesn't create problems, might as well keep doing it.
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cronicr



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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: Terpfreak]
#23742274 - 10/16/16 11:53 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Soaking and simmering wbs can be problematic...be careful.
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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azur
God of Fuck



Registered: 04/21/12
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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: cronicr]
#23742286 - 10/16/16 11:54 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Terpfreak
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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: azur]
#23742288 - 10/16/16 11:56 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ill look up info. -screams internally- idk what do
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: Terpfreak]
#23742429 - 10/16/16 12:39 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Terpfreak
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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: bodhisatta]
#23742432 - 10/16/16 12:42 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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My brain hurts but thanks Bodhi
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: Terpfreak]
#23742434 - 10/16/16 12:44 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yeah I'm screaming internally over here myself. Anybody with 100 posts is aware of this endospore germination concept. How can we not question this concept when the author of the ratio method claims to have consistent success? Why are we insisting on taking extra steps just in case when a simpler process may work just as well? I'm all about efficiency lately, shaving a day off of prep is quite the bonus.
It sounds like this method has a history I'm unaware of though? Are burst grains actually a problem or is it a preference thing?
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Mycolorado
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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23742444 - 10/16/16 12:47 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Can't believe I've never seen a tek like this, always hated waiting overnight for grains to soak, and the messes that can be created when simmering
This is the way I've done it for years. I started a thread on it as an easy jar prep but nobody seemed interested. Here: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23545185/page/3
Edited by Mycolorado (10/16/16 12:51 PM)
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Terpfreak
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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23742448 - 10/16/16 12:49 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I know the burst grains in my WBS are the last to "colonize" They're hollow aren't they?
Also the method Bodhi presented says to hydrate but not soak. Which I presume means simmer no soak- You can hydrate grains without bursting them, and what I've read from many posters is that you want to scoop out the burst grains that float to the top.
Even still, these are two separate issues.
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: Terpfreak]
#23742463 - 10/16/16 12:53 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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yeah I suppose you're right, simmer with no soak is just as good/fast. I still have to read that thread more carefully it did look interesting.
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Mycolorado
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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23742495 - 10/16/16 01:06 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Or just do some testing to find out how long to boil a certain type of grain or seed. I recently started just boiling rye for 20 min, draining and then PC for 90. Here are some 4 day old g2g jars done this way.
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nobody83
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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: Mycolorado]
#23742523 - 10/16/16 01:15 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Preference...
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Terpfreak
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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: Mycolorado]
#23742541 - 10/16/16 01:20 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thats what i do with wbs but with a 12 hour presoak.
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: Terpfreak] 1
#23742553 - 10/16/16 01:24 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Terpfreak said: My brain hurts but thanks Bodhi 
the bacteria makes sure it's population has many phenotypes floating around some being early spore forming and some late spore forming.
as soon as endospores germinate the population of vegetative bacteria goes up which is a trigger for spore formation.
clostridium (spore forming and in grain) has a doubling time of about 10 minutes
bacillus can be like 30-60 minutes
so if you soak for say a short 6 hours even you have made so many new bacteria that even if a small proportion of them decide to make a spore(which takes perhaps an hour in most species) you've created a dickload more spores and even bacteria than you originally started with.
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ChristaphonZ


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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: bodhisatta]
#23742624 - 10/16/16 01:48 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Cronicr, what problem's are you referring to? Am I apparently unaware of some danger? Curious if you had something happen to you that just has not happened to me yet.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: ChristaphonZ]
#23742630 - 10/16/16 01:49 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Moisture content going off
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Wicked Burn


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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: Mycolorado]
#23742657 - 10/16/16 01:58 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mycolorado said: Or just do some testing to find out how long to boil a certain type of grain or seed. I recently started just boiling rye for 20 min, draining and then PC for 90. Here are some 4 day old g2g jars done this way.

So you're not soaking or using gypsum? Just boil for 20 minutes and PC. Looks like it worked fine to me.
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Mycolorado
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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: Wicked Burn] 1
#23742676 - 10/16/16 02:05 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yeah, I add a tsp of gyp to each jar and give a shake before PCing. It's working just right. One note, I start the timer when the water is at a rolling boil.
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Terpfreak
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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: Mycolorado]
#23742701 - 10/16/16 02:12 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thanks bodhi you da best. Five shrooms for you.
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dankington
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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: Terpfreak] 1
#23743003 - 10/16/16 03:55 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I use FooMan's WBS prep  I think most people that use WBS a lot have some variation on this that works for them.
Grains are ready to rock in a few hours.
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cronicr



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Re: Anybody try the ratio method with WBS? aka, no soak no simmer grain prep [Re: ChristaphonZ]
#23743351 - 10/16/16 05:59 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
ChristaphonZ said: Cronicr, what problem's are you referring to? Am I apparently unaware of some danger? Curious if you had something happen to you that just has not happened to me yet.
Ya can't treat wbs like rye...a quick simmer after a soak can be ok but you can also burst alot of grain...starchy grain makes shitty spawn.things like rye or wheat however can handle a boil.
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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