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OfflineSleepyE
DMT is metaphysical
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Why are psychedelic trips more visually aesthetic than dreams? * 1
    #23741792 - 10/16/16 09:06 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

This has always been a topic that fascinates me.

Ive been very curious about why my visions on DMT and other powerful psychedelics are so much more visually aesthetic than my dreams

With my dreams very little energy is spent by my mind making the visual components of my dream complex or beautiful in any admirable way. Nothing that i experience in my dreams makes me gasp in astonishment at how beautiful and complex its form is.
its just collections of basic images that i see in my normal day life what i experience and see when im at work for example.

Of course there are some exceptions. Some people can in rare circumstances dream of some pretty complex and beautiful things but it really isn't typical or common.
And thats what i wanted to touch upon with psychedelics.
For some strange reason the psychedelic visions are almost the opposite.
All im seeing is visual aesthetics, the typical experience with this is an infinite sea of masterful form and complexity and movement/flow.( These are the attributes that i assign to the word "aesthetic" so my point is a little clearer for you.)
In my closed eye visions i dont just see patterns, i will see buildings like palaces which have clear architecture and detailed design. They often look like hogwarts-esque palaces decked out with insanely complex patterning and designs around it which flows perfect aesthetically.

Very rarely would i see something in my trip that i would describe as not particularly aesthetic or complicated.
Im trying to figure out if you should consider a psychedelic trip a more complex experience than a dream or even what you see in waking life.

A few months ago i was reading this debunking blog about how all the news floating around the media on how LSD causes an increase in brain activity and causes the brain to "light up like a christmas tree" was deliberate disinformation intended to raise public interest in psychedelics when the studies finding showed "the exact opposite."
http://www.bernardokastrup.com/2016/04/the-lsd-study-youre-being-subtly.html
The study apparently showed a decrease in brain activity when on psilocybin which apparently was more in-tune with Aldous Huxley theory on psychedelics and the mind from what i have read.

So apparently the scientists who did the study responded to his debunking and confirmed that the news reporters "messed up on the reporting and misreported the findings and that it was unfortunate".
I believe the creator of the debunking article was arguing that this might give credit to the idea that decreased brain activity gives way to more complex experiences.
The scientists involved with the study objected to his ideas saying you cant define what a "more complex" experience means and disagreed that psychedelic states were a more complicated experience.

I personally think it is more complex than normal experience and i'll give my reasoning for it.

If i were to use a 3d modelling program as an analogy to describe this then you can say that higher poly count (how many triangles the object is composed of) is more complex and takes more power to render than an object with a lower poly count.
now when i smoked DMT and looked at my room a lot of the time objects would start tessellating and increasing in poly count while changing form and coming to life and dancing (oscilloscopes in my room would look like alien technology.)

So before DMT my sober mind was just processing my room, and after DMT it is processing my room + making the objects more complex poly-wise and animates them.
So logically speaking in an experiential sense the DMT augmented room im looking at is a more complex experience to behold i think.


The debunker also had a comment section where people gave some interesting questions that he responded too.

heres an example
Quote:


Very interesting article, thank you. It made me think about the whole Imperial paper. The only problem I see is that you are assuming that a trip is an 'increased experience'. I would disagree. I'm not sure if you are aware of the 'gate-theory' of hallucinogens (LSD, in this case). This is where, via their action on serotonin receptors, they block the thalamic circuitry, which usually blocks 'unnecessary stimuli'. Therefore, this leads to an increased stimulus entering the brain, which translates to what you say an 'increased 'experience'. However, what this shows is that we have less efficient control systems in the brain, which requires less energy and activity (shown by this study). Therefore, this could be categorised as a decreased experience. Please let me know what your views on this are :smile:

Quote:

Hi. I'm not assuming anything, I am just highlighting what materialism, as a metaphysics, states: according to it, certain types of brain activity _constitute_ experience. As such, under materialism, an increase in experiential intensity/breadth _is_ an increase in that type of brain activity. So when there is a significant delta in experiential intensity/breadth without any increase in any type of brain activity anywhere in the brain, it becomes more difficult to defend materialism.

Your filter hypothesis is OK but, under materialism, it doesn't change the above. If you take out inhibitory processes, other processes should still become more active for no longer being inhibited. If more stimuli are entering the brain and being experienced, under materialism those extra experiences still _are_ certain types of brain activity that, therefore, must be observed to increase.









Its all very interesting to me, unfortunately i dont really have the knowledge required to make an informed decision so i guess im still operating on my "intuition" something that most believe is not trust worthy. :S

but ill just leave this here and maybe get some more opinions on this stuff.


--------------------
My Drawingzz
Draw DMT!

Trip Report: SHROOMS DMT---- My Youtube Psychedelic Channel


Edited by SleepyE (10/16/16 09:21 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Why are psychedelic trips more visually aesthetic than dreams? [Re: SleepyE]
    #23742046 - 10/16/16 10:42 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I think the Magnetoencephalography (MEG) used in this report was too primitive (only 300 points are tested) and the filters used in it for alpha, beta, delta, and theta wave phenomena cancel out the "chritmas tree" specifics of the LSD/mushroom enhanced activity which takes in all the sensation and ideations and keeps those specific things in suspension to produce trails and echoes mixed back into life in the moment.

The enhanced experience engages far more than 300 specific points every passing instant, and the activity follows nature which is not a blanket theta or alpha etc. type wave; it is totally the opposite category, those MEG filters should be removed to allow the noise to get through.

This science needs more data, more good data, the approach is right (encephalography in 2 dimensions) but the resolution is too low (begin with 100times as many points), and the MEG filter erroneously assumes that what is not alpha beta delta theta is meaningless which is the opposite of the true issue.

so I think this debunkery is premature.


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InvisibleLeviticus969
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Re: Why are psychedelic trips more visually aesthetic than dreams? [Re: SleepyE]
    #23742599 - 10/16/16 01:40 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Well it's like you said... It's pretty rare to get an extremely complex aesthetically pretty dream. Not many experience it but the few that do can probably say it's pretty amazing. On the level of tripping out on some bomb psychedelics I might add. I've seen some extremely crazy shit. beautiful beyond imagination. I was wondering how in the world my mind was doing all that in my sleep. On top of that I've had the ability to fly through my dreamscapes... You know how dreams feel real as it is and you have no way to distinguish reality from a dream sometimes well yeah just imagine flying through this shit thinking it's the real thing. pretty gnarly.

I used to get these dreams literally every night.... Lately my dreams aren't as cool anymore and I feel it's because of the way I've been acting... (unworthy). Dreams are a gift from God, imo, an indication that you're doing something really right in your life.

As far as Psychedelics go, I've had cubes that give me stupid to less than nothing visuals. boring and uninspiring and I've had cubes that just blew me away.... Seeing complex creatures and fractals. colors everywhere. crazy out of this world shit that an average human being can not even begin to comprehend let alone try to explain.

So yeah i really feel as if they both have the potential to be pretty crazy.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Why are psychedelic trips more visually aesthetic than dreams? [Re: Leviticus969]
    #23742656 - 10/16/16 01:58 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

One of my real world physical activities is rollerblading.... somehow that translates as flying when I am in a dream, it may start as sliding around in some shoes and then 'easy' jump running down staircases without touching the treads, then outright flying through hallways and scenery. aside from exhilarating these dreams are pretty detailed.


often it is mixed in with some adventure or class or meeting or challenge etc.

luckily I do not fly or try to fly when inebriated on psychedelics.


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OfflineSleepyE
DMT is metaphysical
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Re: Why are psychedelic trips more visually aesthetic than dreams? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23743189 - 10/16/16 05:05 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:


so I think this debunkery is premature.



i appreciate your thoughts.
I often find myself desperately looking for information that might help explain things i feel are unexplainable by what materialism suggests is possible of reality. I have stopped trying to accurately explain what was so impossible about my experience because it cannot be expressed properly, i dont have the vocabulary to do so.

but im glad my experience has allowed me to keep my mind open to a more abstract interpretation of what is possible of reality.

All of the details of this stuff are pretty much in another language to me so im jealous you can assimilate the information quickly and coherently.
But alas i am young and have a lot of book learning to do if i want to understand what fascinates me :blush:

EDIT: I thought this was interesting
Quote:


http://www.bernardokastrup.com/2016/04/dispelling-straw-men-does-brain-imaging.html
To put all this in perspective, consider this other brain imaging study. It shows that, if you dream that you are clenching your hand, the brain areas associated with hand motion light up clearly in an fMRI. Now think about it: dreams and psychedelic trances are analogous in that neither can be attributed to sensory inputs. Both experiences are imagined. Yet, in a dream, when you experience something as dull as clenching your dreamed-up hand, the corresponding brain activations can be clearly discerned. But when you undergo mind-boggling psychedelic excursions into other mental universes, scientists can discern no conclusive activations anywhere in the brain. You be the judge of whether this tell us something about the likelihood of materialism being correct. Personally, I think it does.




--------------------
My Drawingzz
Draw DMT!

Trip Report: SHROOMS DMT---- My Youtube Psychedelic Channel


Edited by SleepyE (10/16/16 07:46 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Why are psychedelic trips more visually aesthetic than dreams? [Re: SleepyE]
    #23744027 - 10/16/16 09:56 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

this link wanders around too much some ideas are more agreeable while others - not so much
Quote:

SleepyE said:
....
http://www.bernardokastrup.com/2016/04/dispelling-straw-men-does-brain-imaging.html




which brain imaging study are you referencing?
Quote:

SleepyE said:
To put all this in perspective, consider this other brain imaging study. It shows that, if you dream that you are clenching your hand, the brain areas associated with hand motion light up clearly in an fMRI. Now think about it: dreams and psychedelic trances are analogous in that neither can be attributed to sensory inputs. Both experiences are imagined. Yet, in a dream, when you experience something as dull as clenching your dreamed-up hand, the corresponding brain activations can be clearly discerned. But when you undergo mind-boggling psychedelic excursions into other mental universes, scientists can discern no conclusive activations anywhere in the brain. You be the judge of whether this tells us something about the likelihood of materialism being correct. Personally, I think it does.



which scientists are trying to discern, and what are they looking for? this ties to why do they must think they don't have the data?


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OfflineSleepyE
DMT is metaphysical
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Re: Why are psychedelic trips more visually aesthetic than dreams? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23744105 - 10/16/16 10:33 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

this was the article i believe, he was referencing it, that was his quotee
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20934-dreams-read-by-brain-scanner-for-the-first-time/


--------------------
My Drawingzz
Draw DMT!

Trip Report: SHROOMS DMT---- My Youtube Psychedelic Channel


Edited by SleepyE (10/16/16 10:38 PM)


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Why are psychedelic trips more visually aesthetic than dreams? [Re: SleepyE]
    #23744336 - 10/17/16 01:19 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

dreams makes me gasp in astonishment at how beautiful and complex its form is.




I can often vividly remember my dreams in great detail after keeping a dream journal and sometimes going to sleep with melatonin.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: Why are psychedelic trips more visually aesthetic than dreams? [Re: SleepyE]
    #23744349 - 10/17/16 01:51 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Terence McKenna mentioned that dreams may be as far-out as DMT trips but we just don't remember those parts. I've noticed my dream recall is better with more mundane scenarios. There have been a few times that I awoke abruptly to a noise with full-on trip-style visuals that faded quickly.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Why are psychedelic trips more visually aesthetic than dreams? [Re: SleepyE] * 1
    #23744500 - 10/17/16 05:00 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SleepyE said:
this was the article i believe, he was referencing it, that was his quotee
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20934-dreams-read-by-brain-scanner-for-the-first-time/



this article does not say what type of scan, nor does it show scan results, (i.e. it is a review article for amateur science buffs, not experimental evidence) although it supports the view that:
the somatosensory cortex has precise locations for each sensation from each part of the body and these same locations will be activated (electrically) when we sense something or when we remember that sensation.



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OfflineSleepyE
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Re: Why are psychedelic trips more visually aesthetic than dreams? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23745337 - 10/17/16 11:45 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

interesting, well all this really inspires me to educate myself more on this stuff. I feel ill have a better idea of what i believe once i increase my knowledge base. Appreciate everyones input.

Quote:

sudly said:
Quote:

dreams makes me gasp in astonishment at how beautiful and complex its form is.




I can often vividly remember my dreams in great detail after keeping a dream journal and sometimes going to sleep with melatonin.



i do find it odd that dmt trips are much more likely to produce feeling of awe and extreme aesthetic appreciation to the point where im drooling at how incredible the thing is im looking at.
i never experience that in dreams for some reason.

DMT ability to move me emotionally is far greater than dreams, although when i have certain dreams they can make me very depressed when i wake up.
As an artist i can recognize that is was not my dreams that inspired my art style but instead the visions i had on psychedelics.
Why isn't my dreams as fertile of a ground of beauty that i can plagiarize but DMT trips are almost exclusively that.
Im not sure what the qualitative measurement is for comparing level of beauty from an experience but in my opinion DMT trips dominate dreams to the point where there is little contest between the two.
Dreams are rehashing of basic things i have seen many times and DMT trips are often displays of complex things that i feel i have never seen before and at the same time feel that i have because of the deja vu familiar feeling.
I find DMT trips to also be much more of a "ride" than dreams.


--------------------
My Drawingzz
Draw DMT!

Trip Report: SHROOMS DMT---- My Youtube Psychedelic Channel


Edited by SleepyE (10/17/16 12:58 PM)


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Offlinemctaveesh
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Re: Why are psychedelic trips more visually aesthetic than dreams? [Re: SleepyE] * 1
    #23749424 - 10/18/16 04:24 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I've had only a few dreams in my life that absolutely amazed me in a way similar to Psychedelics.

One time I had a Lucid dream where I was in a bright forest. I saw a big house made out of glass. A woman with blonde dreadlocks came out of the house towards me and touched my heart.

Then I woke up and felt amazing the entire day. Everybody at school that day was asking me if I got stoned before going to school because I looked so happy.

Dreams can be pretty Psychedelic and beautiful. Wish I knew how to make that happen again.


--------------------

LogicaL Chaos said:
"humans are like cubes, lots of strains but cubes a cube. Not much difference really."


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OfflineNachoPhlake
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Re: Why are psychedelic trips more visually aesthetic than dreams? [Re: mctaveesh]
    #23853233 - 11/21/16 03:11 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I believe dreams serve more purpose than psychedelic visuals. I think dreams are more about showing you what you need to see rather than what you want to see. I also think that is why have have dreams whether we want to or not.


--------------------
You don't get harmony when everybody sings the same note.  ~Doug Floyd
Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind. -Albert einstein


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Why are psychedelic trips more visually aesthetic than dreams? [Re: NachoPhlake]
    #23853236 - 11/21/16 03:20 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I would say dreams are what you want and things like food and water are what you need.

I think subconscious thoughts accumulate throughout day to day life to influence the plots of our dreams.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Offlinemctaveesh
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Re: Why are psychedelic trips more visually aesthetic than dreams? [Re: NachoPhlake]
    #23854940 - 11/21/16 04:51 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

So I really
Quote:

NachoPhlake said:
I believe dreams serve more purpose than psychedelic visuals. I think dreams are more about showing you what you need to see rather than what you want to see. I also think that is why have have dreams whether we want to or not.





I think they can both go either way. I've had trips that were pure enjoyment and trips that were purely harsh lessons. Same with dreams.

P.S. Taking Rhodiola Rosea every day has been giving me awesome sex dreams. I don't think I need those. But they're awesome. Even from dreams like that, I can learn something from them though. If the dream was vivid enough. It's really cool how useful dreams can be.


--------------------

LogicaL Chaos said:
"humans are like cubes, lots of strains but cubes a cube. Not much difference really."


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