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 enotake2
Stop Bush's war
Registered: 01/30/03
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 Is there good reason to spend $ on defense? 
#2374174 - 02/24/04 01:52 AM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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I had a conversation with this guy once who provided me with some good reasons, but I can't remember what he said. While it may or may not be a good idea to spend money on defense, I would have trouble believing that there is good reason to spend SO MUCH money on defense. Anyways, what are the reasons?
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FrankieJustTrypt
and fell
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Re: Is there good reason to spend $ on defense? [Re: enotake2]
#2374220 - 02/24/04 02:11 AM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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The second we decrease our defense spending China will invade us! 
But in all seriousness some defense spending is needed... But IMO, the levels right now are kinda ridiculous in terms of actual defense. Theres already a very efficient(in terms of cost) method of defense already in place, the 2nd ammendment. But extra beefy military is good for strong-arming other countries to make sure we get the good end of the stick everytime. We seem to have alot that subscribe to "the best defense is a good offense"...
I hope for the days when our government(and private sector) is considerably weaker, and doesn't have the option to attempt to further its power globally, but instead is forced to focus inward, maybe then we can hammer out some of our domestic kinks.
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If you want a free lunch, you need to learn how to eat good advice.
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zeronio
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Re: Is there good reason to spend $ on defense? [Re: enotake2]
#2374414 - 02/24/04 03:20 AM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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Because we measure success of a nation with GDP, which doesn't go up only when we build but also when we destroy, pollute and kill.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: Is there good reason to spend $ on defense? [Re: zeronio]
#2377027 - 02/25/04 09:12 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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If you take no measures to secure what you have I will take it from you. Even if I can't use it. I'll do it for trade or fun. But I'll do it just the same. Because I can. Is your wife hot????
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 trendal
tangential derivation
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,633
Loc: Ontario, Canada 
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Re: Is there good reason to spend $ on defense? [Re: enotake2]
#2377279 - 02/25/04 11:12 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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Well spending money on defense isn't a bad thing at all in this world, as there are some rather shady countries and organizations out there.
Spending money on offense, however, is probably not worth it unless you plan on fighting lots of wars. 
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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HagbardCeline
Student-Teacher-Student-Teacher
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Re: Is there good reason to spend $ on defense? [Re: trendal]
#2377341 - 02/25/04 11:38 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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The best defense is a good offense.
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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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trendal
tangential derivation
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,633
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Is there good reason to spend $ on defense? [Re: HagbardCeline]
#2380008 - 02/26/04 04:33 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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"You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." --Albert Einstein
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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HagbardCeline
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Re: Is there good reason to spend $ on defense? [Re: trendal]
#2380274 - 02/26/04 06:08 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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If in your previous post you meant offense to read as money spent on offensive weapons and not defensive spending during time of conflict, then they are one in the same. You must have both for either to be effective.
And Einstein was wrong. We never had to nuke Russia.
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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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trendal
tangential derivation
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,633
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Is there good reason to spend $ on defense? [Re: HagbardCeline]
#2380524 - 02/26/04 07:10 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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Of course you never had to nuke Russia.
Then again, ballistic nukes are defensive weapons
I meant that spending lots of money on weapons that have no defensive value beyond being an offensive weapon is a waste of money. Why not put more money into truely defensive technologies which cannot be used to go wage pre-emptive wars?
No offense...but that's pretty crazy for you to call Einstein wrong 
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,236
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Re: Is there good reason to spend $ on defense? [Re: trendal]
#2380681 - 02/26/04 08:10 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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Einstein was wrong when he said that.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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trendal
tangential derivation
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,633
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Is there good reason to spend $ on defense? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#2380751 - 02/26/04 08:34 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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Try explaining why he was wrong, instead of just stating so. You'll have a better chance of people thinking you've got a good idea
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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HagbardCeline
Student-Teacher-Student-Teacher
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Re: Is there good reason to spend $ on defense? [Re: trendal]
#2380770 - 02/26/04 08:40 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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No, ballistic nukes are offensive. Their only purpose is to destroy or neutralize large targets.
It's the threat they imply that makes them defensive.
Quote:
I meant that spending lots of money on weapons that have no defensive value beyond being an offensive weapon is a waste of money. Why not put more money into truely defensive technologies which cannot be used to go wage pre-emptive wars?
As I said before, the best defense is a good offense. It's the projected threat of these weapons that is the deterrent. Hardly a waste of money. Save a few examples, we have relatively few purely defensive weapons. Would you just have us keep taking one on the chin while we dodge the knife to the chest until we finally get knocked out and stabbed anyway?
And the missle defense shield is a perfect example of a purely defensive technology investment you call for.
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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,236
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Is there good reason to spend $ on defense? [Re: trendal]
#2380785 - 02/26/04 08:46 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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Here's a better idea. If you don't like my answer, don't reply.
But he was wrong because both can obviously be done at the same time. As an example, the M.A.D. doctrine which got us through the cold war. Both sides were prepared for war, which I believe prevented it.
Or more simply, if your foe knows you are prepared for war, he's less likely to start one.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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HagbardCeline
Student-Teacher-Student-Teacher
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Posts: 9,873
Loc: Overjoyed, at the bottom ...
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Re: Is there good reason to spend $ on defense? [Re: trendal]
#2380808 - 02/26/04 08:56 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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As for Einstein, besides that statement, I can think of several other instances he was wrong.
But for that quote, how about the Cuban missle crisis?
The best way to deter someone intent on punching you in the face is to point a gun at his.
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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: Is there good reason to spend $ on defense? [Re: HagbardCeline]
#2380862 - 02/26/04 09:15 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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Einstein said, I believe, in response to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle that he didn't think god played dice. He was wrong. I saw god at the craps table last night. She was winning and tipping well.
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trendal
tangential derivation
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,633
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Is there good reason to spend $ on defense? [Re: HagbardCeline]
#2381140 - 02/26/04 10:44 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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I would argue that ballistic nukes are never "meant" to be actually used...but were intended as a deterent all along.
Tactical nukes, on the other hand, serve no deterent and are obviously intended for use in tactical situations.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Yarry
Old Timer
Registered: 01/05/04
Posts: 23,740
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Re: Is there good reason to spend $ on defense? [Re: trendal]
#2381251 - 02/26/04 11:21 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
trendal said:
Well spending money on defense isn't a bad thing at all in this world, as there are some rather shady countries and organizations out there.
Spending money on offense, however, is probably not worth it unless you plan on fighting lots of wars.
thats exactly what i was going to say. spending money to defend the liberty of your own country is fine. When you start spending money to invade countries then thats not spending money on defence. thats spending money on offense
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Grumpy Old Man.
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funkyjunky
Sigh Low Sippin'
Registered: 12/08/03
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Loc: brick city
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Re: Is there good reason to spend $ on defense? [Re: enotake2]
#2381260 - 02/26/04 11:23 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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truemajority
Here is a short animation that give a pretty good perspective of our gov't spending. It takes a minute to get to this part.
*wait, this one is even better and a lot more on topic nuclear weapons policy
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Long Live the Shroomery
Peace
Edited by funkyjunky (02/26/04 11:26 PM)
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ddaedalus
poser
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Re: Is there good reason to spend $ on defense? [Re: enotake2]
#2384148 - 02/27/04 06:40 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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I didn't read the thread, but the best reason to spend obscene amounts on defence, is that we become less likely to use it. If another sovereign country thought they had a chance againt the US military they might try us, but if they expect to be destroyed 16 ways from sunday they concede to more peaceful means of resolution.
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ninetynine
puke boy skeleton face
Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 907
Loc: no hands land, az
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Re: Is there good reason to spend $ on defense? [Re: HagbardCeline]
#2385513 - 02/28/04 01:24 AM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
HagbardCeline said:
And Einstein was wrong. We never had to nuke Russia.
einstein never said anything about russia. he said "war". just because it wasn't with russia does mean we haven't gone to war since then.
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2,5-dimethoxy-4-astatophenethylamine
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