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endogenous
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salvia - tpe?
#23741438 - 10/16/16 03:54 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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"Part of what sets salvia apart is its peculiar chemistry. While salvinorin A—the psychotropic molecule in Salvia divinorum—binds only to the dopamine-reducing kappa-opioid receptor, most psychedelics increase serotonin by binding to the serotonin 5-HT2A receptor, among others. " http://www.vice.com/read/why-is-salvia-so-uniquely-terrifying-1015
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endogenous
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Quote:
Asante said:
Quote:
nooneman said: TPE should be confined to 5HT2A agonists. ODD is there for drugs which are not 5HT2A agonists, and ODD is a great forum.
Datura is not a 5HT2A agonist.
My thought exactly.
"Psychedelic is defined by 5HT2A action. If it works by anoither means or is significantly more toxic than mescaline, it doesnt belong there.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/newreply.php?Cat=0&Board=7&Number=23294847&page=2&what=showflat&fpart=1&vc=1&q=1&replystamp=1476689888
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DustBunny


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Cannabis is not a 5-HT2A agonist, either. Plenty of 5-HT2A agonists belong in ODD, those that aren't time-tested and potentially-proven dangerous. Dosage advice for the chems currently discussed in TPE is not nearly as much of a liability. It's the admin's call if they wish to change what belongs where, but salvia is not the only exception, and strictly "5-HT2A agonists only" would not work because of many other serotonergic RC's.
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endogenous
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True. However, salvia seems more akin to datura than to any Entheogen in its effect. It also has a reputation of causing harm. In fact, unlike datura, it produces such bad effects that most people don't seem to need to be warned about it.
I would think it shouldn't be included in TPE.
-------------------- The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.
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Amanita86
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Yeah it should. Final answer.
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*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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endogenous
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Are you thinking it should be included or excluded - or is your post meant to not say one way or the other?
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Connoisseur

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salvia is an entheogen
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Amanita86
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Salvia should be included in TPE in my opinion. I believe it's potential qualifies it for the position.
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Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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endogenous
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I would define "Entheogen" as a substance that can reveal bright Light, ("colors and patterns") and which increases consciousness to the extent that a person has a "transcendental" experience to a super natural level and the Entheogen can be seen Themselves as a Being/Teacher.
Although people have seemed to experience salvia as a being, I haven't heard of anyone claiming to see Light similar to LSD, DMT, Mescaline, or Marijuana.
People have reported a "being" with cocaine and opiates, but they certainly would not be considered Entheogens.
-------------------- The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.
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LogicaL Chaos
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Quote:
Connoisseur said: salvia is an entheogen
a naturally occuring one too.
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d0urd3n
Just call me "D"

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Salvia is very psychedelic. I don't see how it's even remotely comparable to datura or brugmasia.
It's not like TPE is flooded with salvia discussion anyways, so I don't see the issue here.
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impaired420
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Re: salvia - tpe? [Re: d0urd3n]
#23970530 - 12/31/16 11:25 AM (7 years, 30 days ago) |
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Salvia is a naturally occurring entheogen, regardless of it's mechanism of action.
Sure it's mostly dissociating but I get very LSD esque visuals from lower doses of salvia.
Also there are diterpenes in salvia we don't know a lot about yet or their solitary effects or their mechanisms of action.
Not only that but salvia isn't as dangerous as datura, and it's more psychedelic than datura. Also as far as I know no one has died from a direct result of salvia toxicity? The worst thing I heard of was the guy who jumped out of a window after smoking a retarded strong 80x extract. Salvias bad image comes from people who use and abuse salvia without any knowledge of it.
I think it should stay in TPE. Like dourdan said it's not like it's a much discussed topic anyway.
-------------------- "Our task must be to free ourselves... By widening our circle of compassion, To embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature and its beauty." -Albert Einstein Offering salvia divinorum clones, leaf, and extracts for trades legal states.
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endogenous
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I have read trip reports. This substance doesn't sound at all like an Entheogen. But it does sound dangerous
For instance:
Salvia is strange, strange stuff. It gave me nothing until it gave me this total out of body dissociation. I was amazed at its power, yet somewhat put off by effects which I would describe as not very psychedelic in nature at all. It seems more like a dissociative or deliriant. I can’t be sure there’s not more here that I haven’t been clever enough to unlock yet, but the primary nature of salvia’s full-blown effects, for me, was the destruction of all identity for a short time. There was no enhancement of my natural abilities, too much confusion to self reflect. It was essentially an experience of letting go of my mind and my memory. -- https://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=66185
and
Anyway, one pinch of 10x Salvia, smoked in an aluminimum pipe. Pulled in a big puff of smoke, and boom, I was gone. I don't even remember inhaling the smoke. Unlike the tincture, this was more like a rocket propelled Wile E. Coyote style rollercoster spiraling downward at supersonic speeds with no tracks into a black abyss. And I mean that in the nicest way. Nothing like the tincture trip. Panic, anxiety, and no @!#%*^ idea how the #%!# I got here were my first recollections as the trip started.
Reality distorted, that is, the world was rotating violently to the right (the fouton, floor, gravity...) and I was trying to stay level and was rotating/twisting/leaning left. I had the lights on so my mind was taking visual input and making them fit the sensations I was feeling. The ground/futon was trying to wrap me up and peel away up and to the right much the same way you would flip the page of a book. I'm desperately trying, with primal instinct, to grab hold and turn left against the rotating feeling with no success. Real deep down sick to my stomach panic starts to set in. Anxiety turns to fear of being swept away to the unknown. I don't want to go. The world/futon/floor is wrapping around me tighter, I grab the edge of the futon/floor that's trying to wrap around me harder and harder when I realize I'm crushing the lighter in the my right hand. https://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=31488
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impaired420
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Some people like salvia, some people don't. Some people like shrooms, some people don't.
It's not dangerous. Also it's being explored in pharmaceuticals, salvinorin shows real promise for treating depression and a few other ailments.
Taking a large dose of salvia is dangerous but so is taking large doses of mushrooms or LSD... Everything in moderation.
-------------------- "Our task must be to free ourselves... By widening our circle of compassion, To embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature and its beauty." -Albert Einstein Offering salvia divinorum clones, leaf, and extracts for trades legal states.
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Shroomism
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The only thing salvia is dangerous to is fragile egos and illogical thought patterns  And the Salvia entity is most definitely a female, a very powerful one. And it's most certainly an entheogen by every definition of the word.
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endogenous
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I remember when people started calling dxm a "Psychedelic". It caused the need of a new word to separate the REAL Psychedelics from the pseudo ones.
The word "Entheogen" seemed safe but I see now people are looking to include things that are not like REAL Entheogens.
Maybe it's time for a new word.
Incidentally, the person whose "trip report" talked about the spinning sensation, said that he cleared the room of any objects he could damage or be damaged by because he wanted to go beyond "mild" effects.
People definitely don't do, or need to do that kind of thing just to go beyond "mild" with LSD, DMT, or real Entheogens.
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endogenous
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This is from one of the main posts at Erowid on salvia:
The pure compound salvinorin A is active at 200 - 500 mcg when vaporized and inhaled. Since very few people have the costly equipment necessary to accurately weigh anything close to this small an amount, it is inevitable that people will try to visually estimate the dose. Unfortunately there is little room for error before the effects become potentially dangerous. When the dose goes above 500 - 1000 mcg the effects can be very alarming,
I have seen several people get up and lunge around the room falling over furniture, babbling incomprehensible nonsense and knocking their heads into walls. Several people have tried to wander out of the house. When the experience is over they have no memory of any of this. In fact they usually remember very different events.
To an outside observer people in this condition have a blank look in their eyes as if no one is present (and perhaps no one is). It is also common for people to have a facial expression which is probably best described as being like that of a frightened animal.
It appears that at these "larger" doses one completely loses awareness of, and control over, the physical body and for some reason part of the brain causes the body to get up and move about recklessly while the individual has no awareness of where their physical body is or what it is doing. It seems inevitable that one of these days some careless person will do too large a dose without a sitter and will wander out in the street, or hurt themselves in some way.
Because the dose is so small and insignificant looking, there is a tendency for people to think they need more than what they are told is a safe dose. Another problem is that the technique of vaporizing and inhaling the compound can be a bit tricky. Salvinorin A has a relatively high boiling point and people often don't get it hot enough to remain a gas all the way down into the lungs. Another problem is that so little is used that the vapor often disperses before it gets inhaled. Sometimes people just don't hold the vapor in their lungs long enough for thorough absorption.
Several people after trying a dose in the recommended safe range and not getting an effect assumed that they needed a larger dose, when in fact the problem was that they did not vaporize the material efficiently the first time. I have already seen more than one intelligent, careful and experienced person accidentally do too large a dose because of this. Fortunately they had sitters and managed to get through the experience safely.
Not only is salvinorin A chemically different from other hallucinogens (it is a diterpene not an alkaloid) but its effects are quite different as well.
Many people consider the effects less manageable and harder to work with than other entheogens. The majority of people who have had a full blown experience with salvinorin A are reluctant to ever do it again.
Anyone choosing to experiment with this compound should always have an alert, clear-thinking sitter present to prevent them from injuring themselves or others. -- https://erowid.org/plants/salvia/salvia_info3.shtml
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d0urd3n
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People do dumb shit on mushrooms too?
I never move on either one. I lay on the ground while my mind gets demolished. Breaking things or hurting yourself isn't specific to salvia. It can happen on any very powerful mind altering drug.
I don't understand why you seem to have such a vested interest in this. Like I said earlier there's only a few posts a week about salvia. Just don't click on them if you don't want to see them.
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endogenous
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Re: salvia - tpe? [Re: d0urd3n]
#23982939 - 01/05/17 01:15 AM (7 years, 25 days ago) |
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I don't understand why you don't see that it's dangerous.
People completely lose touch with reality and don't know what their body is doing. It's not a case of "they can just lay down and not move around". They are completely UNAWARE THAT THEIR BODY IS MOVING.
I have NEVER seen that kind of thing happen with real Entheogens.
And it's VERY easy to o.d. on it -- and has happened to experienced users.
People who care about others and who care about the information that comes out of a website associated with Entheogens, should be VERY concerned about this.
Edited by endogenous (01/05/17 01:20 AM)
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1234go
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Quote:
People completely lose touch with reality and don't know what their body is doing
Some OTC sleep aids cause the same kind of reactions.
There's another thing called alcohol that makes people do crazy shit too.
Go away.
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endogenous
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Re: salvia - tpe? [Re: 1234go]
#23984732 - 01/05/17 06:08 PM (7 years, 25 days ago) |
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So salvia is like alcohol and sleep aids and you want that to be included as an Entheogen and allowed in TPE -
- makes alot of sense :sarcasm:
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d0urd3n
Just call me "D"

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Based on this thread and your previous posts all you do is post various quotes and argue with people. Not sure if you are a troll or I am witnessing the Dunning–Kruger effect. Either way no one else I've seen has issues with salvia threads being posted in TPE.
Either way, I'm done wasting my time.
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Amanita86
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Quote:
endogenous said: I don't understand why you don't see that it's dangerous.
People completely lose touch with reality and don't know what their body is doing. It's not a case of "they can just lay down and not move around". They are completely UNAWARE THAT THEIR BODY IS MOVING.
I have NEVER seen that kind of thing happen with real Entheogens.
And it's VERY easy to o.d. on it -- and has happened to experienced users.
People who care about others and who care about the information that comes out of a website associated with Entheogens, should be VERY concerned about this.
Have you ever taken salvia? And if it's as dangerous as you say, it should have a place where people can discuss it openly. I don't see why you're on such a witch hunt for salvia. It clearly should be an open topic in TPE... period.
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*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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endogenous
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It isn't a Psychedelic. It isn't a 5HT2A agonist.
It's dangerous. It belongs in a forum where people will more easily find warnings about it
Don't you care what happens to people who don't get the right information and end up harming themselves or others - as well as giving a bad reputation to the Shroomery.
I would remind you that the warnings that I quoted came from the main salvia page at Erowid.
Quote:
Asante said:
Quote:
nooneman said: TPE should be confined to 5HT2A agonists. ODD is there for drugs which are not 5HT2A agonists, and ODD is a great forum.
Datura is not a 5HT2A agonist.
My thought exactly.
"Psychedelic is defined by 5HT2A action. If it works by anoither means or is significantly more toxic than mescaline, it doesnt belong there.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23294847#23294847
Edited by endogenous (01/06/17 01:15 AM)
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Amanita86
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So you're going to help inform people by limiting the places where they can talk about it?
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*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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endogenous
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That's the idea.
In a limited and narrow setting, it is possible to make the warnings more visible.
But why insist on having a non-Psychedelic in a group that's supposed to be for Psychedelics?
-------------------- The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.
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1234go
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We're all-inclusive, and not big on labels or separation around here.
Your attempt to segregate the entheogens is not being well received, maybe take your peddling elsewhere? At this point I think it's fair to say that nobody cares and you're wasting everyone's time, including your own.
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endogenous
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Re: salvia - tpe? [Re: 1234go]
#23987163 - 01/06/17 05:18 PM (7 years, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
1234go said: We're all-inclusive, and not big on labels or separation around here.
An obviously false statement.
Datura was recently delegated to ODD. And many compounds that ARE Psychedelics and don't have the dangers of salvia are not allowed on TPE.
-------------------- The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.
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Amanita86
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You have to have a certain post count and time for ODD to unlock so any 'newbs' looking for salvia info wouldn't be able to find it. Salvia and datura are two entirely different beasts. Have you ever tried either? Plus, loads more people ask about/are curious in trying salvia than are people looking to give datura a go. They're two completely separate things.
My advice to you is, if it really bothers you that much when people post about salvia in tpe, don't click on the thread. It's not like the topic comes flooding through there multiple times a day. Get over it..
Quote:
endogenous said: Datura was recently delegated to ODD. And many compounds that ARE Psychedelics and don't have the dangers of salvia are not allowed on TPE.
That's because they're (psychadelics) RC's and not plants, or from plants.. different category all together.. and for the record, you have no idea if they're more dangerous or not. The only harm in salvia is stumbling around and falling down some stairs etc.. but if you follow the "rules" and have a sitter, harmless. Those 'less dangerous' RC's come into the category of damaging your brain, organs etc. Nobody really knows how safe they are.. salvia is harmless. If you ever tried some in the proper manner you would know this.
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Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
Edited by Amanita86 (01/06/17 09:09 PM)
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Amanita86
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I'm going to go ahead and bow out of this one and leave ya'll too it. I just wanted to throw my view out there as I've gone through multiple lbs. of salvia in my day and it holds a real special place in my heart. It is one amazing plant when not abused. For instance, it is no surprise peopl wig out on 80x extract, that strength is just retarded. Plain leaf is actually really gentle and the salvia world is mighty big. There's gold in them thar hills if you're willing to take a look.
So whatever ya'll decide..cool. -
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Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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endogenous
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The article I posted said that salvia has a higher boiling point than other smokable substances and people think it's because they didn't put enough in the bowl that they're having mild effects. So they put too much.
Maybe there could be warning pages for things like datura and salvia so the new people could get access to the info. Or - why not open up ODD to them?
Substances like DET, DPT, 4-OH-DET, 5MeO-DMT (which is produced by the body along with DMT), have been around for a long time and have a similar safety and are completely in the same category as LSD and DMT but are not allowed in TPE.
-------------------- The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.
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endogenous
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I have not tried salvia or datura and, from what I've read, I have no interest in trying them. I'm interested in Psychedelics similar to DMT and LSD that reveal Light and are Higher Beings of Consciousness.
"They are the Eternal, among things that pass away. Pure Consciousness, of conscious beings." -- Katha Upanishad
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Amanita86
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Quote:
endogenous said: I'm interested in Psychedelics similar to DMT and LSD that reveal Light and are Higher Beings of Consciousness.
Salvia Divinorum, aka Diviner's sage. That should be your first clue, but then again by your own admission you have no idea what you're talking about. I just noticed you're an opt-out, that should have been my first clue.
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endogenous
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I've heard people like you before talking about not knocking speed and heroin unless you try it.
Divine sage -- right.
I trust what the people at Erowid had to say about salvia. I don't need to burn my hand to believe that fire can do that.
I see that your hand is already too singed to be able to make sense.
-------------------- The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.
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endogenous
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Quote:
Amanita86 said: I'm going to go ahead and bow out of this one and leave ya'll too it.
I see that doing what you say is real important to you.
That applies to everything else you talk about.
-------------------- The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.
Edited by endogenous (01/08/17 03:25 AM)
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Amanita86
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You should get into the business of making laws, that way your voluntary ignorance could come around full circle..
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*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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endogenous
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Sorry - you're the one who is double-talking.
I'm amazed at how you can think that your brain is functioning while you completely ignore the warning that the people at Erowid gave.
But your lack of sense makes sense when combined with your devotion to salvia.
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Amanita86
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Yeah because nobody has ever had an overwhelming or bad experience on acid or mushrooms. Just keep cherry picking the tid bits of negative feedback on salvia while ignoring the positive..I forgot, you're the expert on this subject.
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Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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endogenous
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Sheesh -look - you want to damage your brain and body - that's your choice. Why do you insist on pushing your drug on me? I've seen what people are saying about salvia. It's not what I would call a Psychedelic. It doesn't do what I'm interested in. You can call it whatever you like. But people should be warned about it's dangers and it shouldn't be put in with real Psychedelics - in my opinion. That is giving people the wrong idea about it.
I don't need to smoke cigarettes to know that I don't want to do that either. You can go ahead and get lung cancer if you want - but I believe the reports. And Erowid is certainly as trustworthy as that.
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1234go
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Quote:
endogenous said: Why do you insist on pushing your drug on me?
Why do you insist on pushing your opinion on us?
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endogenous
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Re: salvia - tpe? [Re: 1234go]
#23997215 - 01/10/17 02:51 AM (7 years, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
1234go said:
Quote:
endogenous said: Why do you insist on pushing your drug on me?
Why do you insist on pushing your opinion on us?
Why do you insist on reading my posts?
If you want to hide the truth about salvia and fail to make sure people know it's dangerous - and it becomes illegal because people end up harming themselves or others - you'll only have yourself to blame.
Experienced users need to have a sitter with salvia. That is not the case with real Psychedelics.
-------------------- The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.
Edited by endogenous (01/10/17 03:41 AM)
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Amanita86
OTD Keymaster


Registered: 09/26/12
Posts: 89,464
Loc: hades
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/End thread
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Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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1234go
Ban Lotto Champion


Registered: 07/08/09
Posts: 53,897
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Quote:
endogenous said: Why do you insist on reading my posts?
Experienced users need to have a sitter with salvia.
People usually read posts on a message forum and interact, am I wrong?
I've never needed a sitter for it. 
Maybe it's just you? I don't know, i'm just spit ballin' here. Take it easy. Don't get yourself too worked up or consumed by it.
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Amanita86
OTD Keymaster


Registered: 09/26/12
Posts: 89,464
Loc: hades
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Re: salvia - tpe? [Re: 1234go]
#23997874 - 01/10/17 11:08 AM (7 years, 20 days ago) |
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I never used a sitter either but anytime I gave some to someone I always made sure to play sitter, just to be on the safe side. Endo openly said he's never tried it before so it goes without saying he has no clue what he's talking about. He just cherry picked a few warnings and is running with it conviently ignoring all the positive experiences. Much like saying cars should be illegal because they can be crashed.. He's a very close minded individual..
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Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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1234go
Ban Lotto Champion


Registered: 07/08/09
Posts: 53,897
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Quote:
Amanita86 said: Endo openly said he's never tried it before so it goes without saying he has no clue what he's talking about.
That's a real kind of thing to do.
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