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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
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Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: sudly] 1
#23756105 - 10/20/16 08:49 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: Health can be divided into the physical health of an individuals body and the mental health of their central nervous system(brain and spine).
Vomiting every day would be a sign of a physical abnormality, perhaps a virus or parasitic infection.
Quote:
Alahu Akbar when done before a bombing translates to 'God is Great' because those individuals who believe in Allah think it is a good thing to commit Jihad.
I think you are a generally good person but I don't think you nor I can deny that there are people in the world who have incredibly diverse ideologies and moralistic beliefs.
Are you trying to say that suicide bombing is moral? This is a perfect example of someones subjective intentions being actualised in ways that are immoral. What it is not, is an argument that morality is "all in the head" or some other such nonsense.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: blingbling]
#23756157 - 10/20/16 09:01 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Health can be divided into the physical health of an individuals body and the mental health of their central nervous system(brain and spine).
Cool, so if you want to understand where i'm coming from then just make the words health and morality synonymous in your mind. Then address the OP.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
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Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: blingbling] 1
#23756171 - 10/20/16 09:06 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Personally I don't think suicide bombings are moral but the people who are committing those atrocities believe that what they are doing is good in the eyes of their god Allah.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Penelope_Tree
Shamanic Panic



Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 8,535
Loc: magic sugarcastle
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Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: sudly] 1
#23756243 - 10/20/16 09:33 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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So, what should we do to mitigate or erase these negative moral manifestations of supply and demand economics?
Capitalism is a tricky beast. On one hand, competition in the market is good. It creates innovation and other things that I'm too tired to think of right now. On the other hand, it leads to problems which you have addressed, namely that some things have a larger monetary potential than others that may not lead to advancement of a society.
To answer the question, I think some areas require government regulation. It would be absurd to say that America should erase the EPA and all the laws it mandated in favor of an "open" economy and that the "market" would take care of the environmental problems. This is patently false. A better example maybe is healthcare. In America, our weird healthcare system has become so bloated and price gouged because there is no regulation on price setting. The same MRI machine that a medical company can mark up to a clinic here in America would sell for 5x less in a country like France because the price is regulated by the government. A third example is teachers' wages. In Scandinavian countries, teachers are paid more like rockstars and less like common laborers. Getting a job in their school system is much more difficult, too, than it is here in America, taking many years and lots of stringent tests. They take it more seriously and give it the attention it deserves, being a foundation for the future of their society.
Basically, I'm for basic laws the require certain industries, basically education, healthcare, and environmental interaction, to be recognized as the cornerstones of quality human life and to take care to preserve them, make them easily accessible, and respected.
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full blown human
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
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So do you think there should be a cap on investment into products that are purely superficial, aren't considered to promote the greater good of society?
Because unlike environmental regulation research into male pattern baldness is not necessarily immoral, it is just immoral that so much money would go into it when so little goes to AID''s research for example.
What about football vs literacy as another poster brought up? People love football, but wouldn't that money be better spent on literacy?
I'm not sure what kind of repercussions a cap on investment would create in the rest of the economy, but its an interesting idea.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
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Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: blingbling]
#23756311 - 10/20/16 09:57 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Cacao beans used to be as valuable as gold and silver.
Quote:
Chocolate was precious to the Aztecs partly because it was hard to come by at court. It did not grow in the highlands around Tenochtitlán but in the southern Mayan lowlands (even today cacao is harvested in the southern Mexican states of Chiapas and Tabasco). To the Aztecs, cacao was so precious that its seeds were used as money. According to Sophie and Michael Coe in The True History of Chocolate (1996), a single cacao bean would buy one large tomato; three beans, a newly picked avocado; 30 beans, a rabbit; and 200 beans, a turkey cock. As with any valuable coinage, cacao forgery went on. Fraudsters made fake beans from bits of avocado stone and wax. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/6194447/Aztecs-and-cacao-the-bittersweet-past-of-chocolate.html
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Penelope_Tree
Shamanic Panic



Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 8,535
Loc: magic sugarcastle
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Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: blingbling]
#23756340 - 10/20/16 10:10 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Quote:
blingbling said: So do you think there should be a cap on investment into products that are purely superficial, aren't considered to promote the greater good of society?
Because unlike environmental regulation research into male pattern baldness is not necessarily immoral, it is just immoral that so much money would go into it when so little goes to AID''s research for example.
What about football vs literacy as another poster brought up? People love football, but wouldn't that money be better spent on literacy?
I'm not sure what kind of repercussions a cap on investment would create in the rest of the economy, but its an interesting idea.
I'm not proposing that government tell people they can only pour X amount of money into a certain industry. I am saying that governments should mandate that X amount of money be poured into certain industries, like education, healthcare, environmental protection. I hope that clarifies the difference.
It probably also comes down to the way these services are managed. I think that's why so many people strike an issue with government run anything. The government has so much red tape and it takes forever for things to get done. So we look to the private sector for reprieve. However, like you point out, because of the monetary potential of certain topics vs other topics, either some very important things, like education or environmental protection, are neglected or some things are left out in the cold, like education or healthcare.
I am trying to say that some industries need to be better funded or managed or socialized. I don't think capping investments/money flow into "superficial"/private sector endeavors is required.
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full blown human
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Penelope_Tree
Shamanic Panic



Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 8,535
Loc: magic sugarcastle
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Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: sudly]
#23756343 - 10/20/16 10:11 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: Cacao beans used to be as valuable as gold and silver.
So glad I stopped buying stocks and started stocking up on chocolate bars
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full blown human
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,876
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: blingbling]
#23756396 - 10/20/16 10:30 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
blingbling said:
You've pointed out a lot of terrible things in the world and I'm not trying to deny them, but equating economic behaviour with earthquakes and pretor, prey, and parasitic relations just mystifies what are in fact social, rather than biological or geological relations. Obviously these things cannot be fully pulled apart as there is only one reality, but I don't think it is a useful metaphor. Your essentializing in the sense that there is nothing we can really do to stop biology or geology, but social relations are relatively flexible at least in comparison with these other domains of human knowledge.
I am skeptical whenever someone tries to equate human social relations with either "Gods will on earth" or because its "natural" as both of these phases are often used as cover for immoral behaviour.
behavior traits (aggression specifically) can have a genetic origin, and even be bred out through the process of domestication. If rats or siberian foxes can have genes related to an immoral behavior(overt aggression specifically), i don't see why humans couldn't. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Domesticated_Red_Fox ) To go back to your rape example, one must agree that as a society we shouldn't tolerate rape, and indeed, in most places rape is a crime, yet rape exists. The unfortunate fact is that rape may persist more or less forever, especially if the behavior is genetic in origin.
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Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
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Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: sudly]
#23756878 - 10/21/16 03:18 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: Cacao beans used to be as valuable as gold and silver.
Quote:
Chocolate was precious to the Aztecs partly because it was hard to come by at court. It did not grow in the highlands around Tenochtitlán but in the southern Mayan lowlands (even today cacao is harvested in the southern Mexican states of Chiapas and Tabasco). To the Aztecs, cacao was so precious that its seeds were used as money. According to Sophie and Michael Coe in The True History of Chocolate (1996), a single cacao bean would buy one large tomato; three beans, a newly picked avocado; 30 beans, a rabbit; and 200 beans, a turkey cock. As with any valuable coinage, cacao forgery went on. Fraudsters made fake beans from bits of avocado stone and wax. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/6194447/Aztecs-and-cacao-the-bittersweet-past-of-chocolate.html
Your point is?
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: ballsalsa]
#23756886 - 10/21/16 03:23 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said:
Quote:
blingbling said:
You've pointed out a lot of terrible things in the world and I'm not trying to deny them, but equating economic behaviour with earthquakes and pretor, prey, and parasitic relations just mystifies what are in fact social, rather than biological or geological relations. Obviously these things cannot be fully pulled apart as there is only one reality, but I don't think it is a useful metaphor. Your essentializing in the sense that there is nothing we can really do to stop biology or geology, but social relations are relatively flexible at least in comparison with these other domains of human knowledge.
I am skeptical whenever someone tries to equate human social relations with either "Gods will on earth" or because its "natural" as both of these phases are often used as cover for immoral behaviour.
behavior traits (aggression specifically) can have a genetic origin, and even be bred out through the process of domestication. If rats or siberian foxes can have genes related to an immoral behavior(overt aggression specifically), i don't see why humans couldn't. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Domesticated_Red_Fox ) To go back to your rape example, one must agree that as a society we shouldn't tolerate rape, and indeed, in most places rape is a crime, yet rape exists. The unfortunate fact is that rape may persist more or less forever, especially if the behavior is genetic in origin.
I submit to everything you've said, but humanity is capable of multiple phenotypes resulting from the same genetic information. So much so that your example has very little to do with economics.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Quote:
Penelope_Tree said:
Quote:
Quote:
blingbling said: So do you think there should be a cap on investment into products that are purely superficial, aren't considered to promote the greater good of society?
Because unlike environmental regulation research into male pattern baldness is not necessarily immoral, it is just immoral that so much money would go into it when so little goes to AID''s research for example.
What about football vs literacy as another poster brought up? People love football, but wouldn't that money be better spent on literacy?
I'm not sure what kind of repercussions a cap on investment would create in the rest of the economy, but its an interesting idea.
I'm not proposing that government tell people they can only pour X amount of money into a certain industry. I am saying that governments should mandate that X amount of money be poured into certain industries, like education, healthcare, environmental protection. I hope that clarifies the difference.
It probably also comes down to the way these services are managed. I think that's why so many people strike an issue with government run anything. The government has so much red tape and it takes forever for things to get done. So we look to the private sector for reprieve. However, like you point out, because of the monetary potential of certain topics vs other topics, either some very important things, like education or environmental protection, are neglected or some things are left out in the cold, like education or healthcare.
I am trying to say that some industries need to be better funded or managed or socialized. I don't think capping investments/money flow into "superficial"/private sector endeavors is required.
So is it that you don't see the problems outlined in the OP as actual problems, or that you don't see them as problems worth addressing by governments? If you still think they are problems, but problems governments can't solve, then how should they be addressed?
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: blingbling]
#23756934 - 10/21/16 03:59 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I have been pointing at the effort made in Canada with its Charter of Rights and Freedoms (It forms the first part of the Constitution Act, 1982), to help crystallize what "Morality" is in secular terms.
The issues surrounding rape and any other transgression of personal boundaries are addressed in the Constitution, and the body of law in the country.
I think the essence of morality is the respect of people's boundaries.
Looking at genetics and the incidence of rape among wolves or other species does not change the fact that among humans, i.e. in our social order, we use a code to help regulate and limit interpersonal boundary transgressions.
The code is not simple, but the core of it is one of respect and dignity. Where supply and demand come into it at this time is more peripheral than rape, it is secondary to other transgression-al issues such as race or disability.
Law is already huge, a person could not reasonably know all the laws of the land, even a lawyer needs to be a specialist in this day and age. So we do need to have some self-regulating systems, such as supply and demand, and let core issues like human rights and freedoms blaze limits to those self-regulating systems through the court systems.
Adversarial Law needs both a Plaintiff and an Accused. Something like "supply and demand" is neither.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: blingbling]
#23757006 - 10/21/16 05:09 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I like chocolate.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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BrendanFlock
Stranger


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Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: sudly]
#23759139 - 10/21/16 08:38 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think the most moral outcome of an economy..would be that for every persons demand..they are immediately provided with supply..to the exact degree of their demand..
And then with the courts of law and social justice we could measure the ins and outs..and then have rulling's if there are questions about legality..
Though this vision is true..we still have a ways to go socially..because there are things like drugs..that are banned from professional selling and trading markets..
So until we get all the things legalized that should be legalized...we will likely have immoral economy..and therefore immoral supply and demand..!
So the revolution is always about this..as far as I am concerned...even if it weren't..it still could merge with this as a common bio stasis..on the topics of homeostasis in general..
So the question is how can we get these things that are morally correct legalized.. and how long will it take for that to happen..until that point we will always have a certain % of ourselves left bereft..to the normal causes of causation and creation in Gods Kingdom..and ours!!
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
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-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
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Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: sudly]
#23759759 - 10/22/16 01:10 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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What is the positive reason we find value in economy? Is there a first principle, in philosophy?
The merit/function of the eye is to see well, and the merit/function of thing like a blade is to cut well. These merits are not just arbitrary necessarily, but can be situated, more or less in an organically, according to a sense of purpose. They are difficult to describe at all otherwise.
But maybe we value a good eye, and a good blade, in the same sense, as mere things, and do not necessarily think much of either of them according to any general conception outside of that.
But the particular virtue still could itself, orient the purpose of the function meaningfully.
Yet again, with this possibility, it also "could" also just as well only be that we value general economy, ie. generic utility of things we get out hands on, and only as a result of this generic ideal, value merits.
Naturally both possibilities are part of life. Maybe part of the question of supply and demand and how it relates to our essential values, and morality, whether we are aware of a first principle, like for instance the essential merit of a meritocracy, or whether we come by it more derivatively. Distinguishing actual merit/or virtue as the basis of values, in a more organic way, in a way is ideally based on the particular (human being) being meaningful.
Philosophically (which is one thing) it makes sense to question our first principles, because in questioning, it means to approach them, and their actual basis, rather than just generality. But realistically, there is always the risk of the ideal, in philosophic questioning. And losing sight is not what we need...
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: Kurt]
#23759773 - 10/22/16 01:18 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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For the same reason we value lumps of compressed carbon.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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sprinkles
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Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: blingbling]
#23759799 - 10/22/16 01:34 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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good post blingbling. it is maddening isnt it? and reprehensible indeed.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
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Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Quote:
BrendanFlock said: I think the most moral outcome of an economy..would be that for every persons demand..they are immediately provided with supply..to the exact degree of their demand..
What your describing is not actually an "economy." Economics is the study of the management of scarce resources which have alternative uses. What your describing is kind of wonderland where every wish is immediately granted.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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