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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: blingbling]
    #23747860 - 10/18/16 03:27 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
...
Do you think that immoral economic behaviour like when supply and demand economics fails to promote the greater good is a violation of human rights? How would you justify this?



This is too general a question, and probably an inversion of appropriate cause and effect.

For example, tuberculosis causes death, but it is not a violation of human rights, it is a disease.

This line of thought could be construed as malaise.


--------------------
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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23750301 - 10/18/16 09:02 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

blingbling said:
...
Do you think that immoral economic behaviour like when supply and demand economics fails to promote the greater good is a violation of human rights? How would you justify this?



This is too general a question, and probably an inversion of appropriate cause and effect.

For example, tuberculosis causes death, but it is not a violation of human rights, it is a disease.

This line of thought could be construed as malaise.




Again, this argument doesn't hold water. Your example is a naturalisation of what are essentially social and moral behaviours.  If human rights are for anything it is to modulate human to human behaviour. So, economic behaviour should fall into this category, correct?


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: blingbling]
    #23751180 - 10/19/16 05:37 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

The more recent additions to the concept of human rights include freedom from discrimination of the following types:
gender, sexual orientation, disability, color, and age.

Legal clauses and sub-clauses that address each category and circumstance differ extensively.

One day, perhaps a complex economic section may become embedded in this type of law as well. I hope this does not get rushed and that it follows the effective establishment of food, clothing, housing, and education basic rights, otherwise, it will become confused with those requirements for human rights.

The basic rights of humanity and the freedoms of participating citizens of the realm should be considered in careful ways that clarify participation since economic rights are usually tied to and constrain participation, and discrimination affects participation.


--------------------
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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: blingbling]
    #23752268 - 10/19/16 03:02 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

blingbling said:
Income is based on supply and demand economics. ...

The above example does not create much of a moral dilemma. .... The doctor saves lives while the sports person entertains. Clearly this is a moral dilemma.

Consider the following example ... Much more money is spent on the medical research for male pattern baldness than AID's research. ... however, morally this is reprehensible.

.... So, what should we do to mitigate or erase these negative moral manifestations of supply and demand economics?




much of what goes on in societies is immoral and unjust and frankly stupid

the key words in your question, INMO are "should" & "do" - as in "... what should we do to .."

these words turn a fact into a problem

there are lions and zebras, half of all organisms are parasites, etc.

much of life, and the world are not pleasant

to answer your question more specifically, those who have children generally want them to be as educated as possible - that is dealing with the world as it is, and is about as good as it gets.

"Brave New World" by Huxley examines the question, and how a future society might try to answer it. The results are not appetizing. Some other good science fiction, also examines the issue. Some of the Scandinavian socialist countries do better on some metrics of social health. Some may also have a higher suicide rate. The data is easily findible on the web.




I respect your 'survival of the fittest' type argument, but I find it unconvincing. I believe you have naturalised a moral and social phenomena in ways which mystify rather than explain.

Let me give you an example of what I mean by naturalise: Rape is a totally natural phenomena. Many species engage in rape, from singled celled organisms to the higher primates. Therefor, we should not stop rapists as they are only doing what is natural, correct?

Just because a phenomena is in some sense natural does not mean it should be tolerated.




The survival of the fittest argument in regards to natural means that nothing is inherently moral or immoral and that morals are an individual construction.

Saudia Arabia thinks it's good to devalue women, Most Western societies don't. Saudia Arabia views their practices as 'good' and Western practices as 'bad' while the West views their practices as 'good' while viewing the Arabs as 'bad'.

Good and bad are a choice of the individual.

I have raped and killed exactly 0 people because I DO NOT WANT TO RAPE OR KILL PEOPLE.


--------------------
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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: sudly]
    #23752294 - 10/19/16 03:11 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Saudia Arabia thinks it's good to devalue women, Most Western societies don't. Saudia Arabia views their practices as 'good' and Western practices as 'bad' while the West views their practices as 'good' while viewing the Arabs as 'bad'.

Good and bad are a choice of the individual.





So sudly, do you think these moral designations are equivalent?  Do you really think neither moral view is better than the other?  I know you're a moral relativist, but would you really argue that Saudi treatment of women is just as morally sound as the Western one?  If not, that's not moral relativism, that's an objective decision.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23752387 - 10/19/16 03:51 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I think somethings are better than others but I acknowledge that the choice is mine to make as to what I think is good or bad.

I think morals are a subjective decision based on the individual interpretation of an objective observation.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: sudly]
    #23752395 - 10/19/16 03:55 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

By saying a set of morals is subjective, you're saying morality can be any old thing, which it can't.  But I don't really care to get into it with you, and I respect your beliefs, which are close to what used to be my own.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23752456 - 10/19/16 04:19 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I never said those morals weren't influenced by culture or society.
I too believe societal morals are built from the subjective beliefs of a culture.

But you're free to believe in objective morality if you want.

I'd also ask one thing, is Vegemite good or bad?


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: sudly]
    #23752471 - 10/19/16 04:28 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

The flavor of a food is a far cry from a moral determination.  A very far cry.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23752554 - 10/19/16 04:53 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I don't think it's any different.  :toast:

It may not be the flavour itself but how someone deals with the flavour of a food that is the moral determination.



--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: sudly]
    #23752585 - 10/19/16 05:02 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

that's why Canada, at least, has a charter of rights and freedoms; were it left up to the public morals, it would be all over the map.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: sudly]
    #23752593 - 10/19/16 05:03 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

You think a man's preference for food is as complex as his morality?

I just have to :shrug:


--------------------
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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23752603 - 10/19/16 05:06 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I'm starting to think it's important to determine a difference between the morals of the state(law) and the morals of individual citizens.

I think that the law is a set of morals decided upon by leadership to protect humans from themselves. Because morals are an individual choice many people decide that they want to do things like kill or steal. Historically society has judged murder and criminal activity as a crime because it does not provide an advantage to the survival of a society.

Although the laws are set in society their origin is still from the minds of human beings.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: sudly]
    #23753424 - 10/19/16 10:00 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Quote:

blingbling said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

blingbling said:
Income is based on supply and demand economics. ...

The above example does not create much of a moral dilemma. .... The doctor saves lives while the sports person entertains. Clearly this is a moral dilemma.

Consider the following example ... Much more money is spent on the medical research for male pattern baldness than AID's research. ... however, morally this is reprehensible.

.... So, what should we do to mitigate or erase these negative moral manifestations of supply and demand economics?




much of what goes on in societies is immoral and unjust and frankly stupid

the key words in your question, INMO are "should" & "do" - as in "... what should we do to .."

these words turn a fact into a problem

there are lions and zebras, half of all organisms are parasites, etc.

much of life, and the world are not pleasant

to answer your question more specifically, those who have children generally want them to be as educated as possible - that is dealing with the world as it is, and is about as good as it gets.

"Brave New World" by Huxley examines the question, and how a future society might try to answer it. The results are not appetizing. Some other good science fiction, also examines the issue. Some of the Scandinavian socialist countries do better on some metrics of social health. Some may also have a higher suicide rate. The data is easily findible on the web.




I respect your 'survival of the fittest' type argument, but I find it unconvincing. I believe you have naturalised a moral and social phenomena in ways which mystify rather than explain.

Let me give you an example of what I mean by naturalise: Rape is a totally natural phenomena. Many species engage in rape, from singled celled organisms to the higher primates. Therefor, we should not stop rapists as they are only doing what is natural, correct?

Just because a phenomena is in some sense natural does not mean it should be tolerated.




The survival of the fittest argument in regards to natural means that nothing is inherently moral or immoral and that morals are an individual construction.

Saudia Arabia thinks it's good to devalue women, Most Western societies don't. Saudia Arabia views their practices as 'good' and Western practices as 'bad' while the West views their practices as 'good' while viewing the Arabs as 'bad'.

Good and bad are a choice of the individual.

I have raped and killed exactly 0 people because I DO NOT WANT TO RAPE OR KILL PEOPLE.




If you really are a moral relativist then you are basically excluding yourself from any argument regarding morality. There is nothing I or anyone can tell you that would make you value a particular moral outlook.

Its kinda like saying "I don't believe in evidence." There is no evidence I could present someone to make them believe in the usefulness of evidence. And there is no moral argument I could introduce that would make you believe the usefulness of morality. Therefor, your not really arguing about morality which was the topic of the OP.

So, continue your debates if you like, but just realise that as long as you hold fast to a morally relativist perspective your not actually engaging the topic of argument.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23753431 - 10/19/16 10:02 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
The more recent additions to the concept of human rights include freedom from discrimination of the following types:
gender, sexual orientation, disability, color, and age.

Legal clauses and sub-clauses that address each category and circumstance differ extensively.

One day, perhaps a complex economic section may become embedded in this type of law as well. I hope this does not get rushed and that it follows the effective establishment of food, clothing, housing, and education basic rights, otherwise, it will become confused with those requirements for human rights.

The basic rights of humanity and the freedoms of participating citizens of the realm should be considered in careful ways that clarify participation since economic rights are usually tied to and constrain participation, and discrimination affects participation.




That sounds pretty vague to me. But, these are difficult questions so I appreciate your input.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: blingbling]
    #23753754 - 10/20/16 12:48 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
Quote:

sudly said:
The survival of the fittest argument in regards to natural means that nothing is inherently moral or immoral and that morals are an individual construction.

Saudia Arabia thinks it's good to devalue women, Most Western societies don't. Saudia Arabia views their practices as 'good' and Western practices as 'bad' while the West views their practices as 'good' while viewing the Arabs as 'bad'.

Good and bad are a choice of the individual.

I have raped and killed exactly 0 people because I DO NOT WANT TO RAPE OR KILL PEOPLE.




If you really are a moral relativist then you are basically excluding yourself from any argument regarding morality. There is nothing I or anyone can tell you that would make you value a particular moral outlook.

Its kinda like saying "I don't believe in evidence." There is no evidence I could present someone to make them believe in the usefulness of evidence. And there is no moral argument I could introduce that would make you believe the usefulness of morality. Therefor, your not really arguing about morality which was the topic of the OP.

So, continue your debates if you like, but just realise that as long as you hold fast to a morally relativist perspective your not actually engaging the topic of argument.



My values are based upon explicit observations and science so if you've got any of that to contribute I'd be more than happy to take it on board.

In my case it's that I only believe in evidence.
I'm not saying morality is not useful, I'm saying morality is not inherently good or bad or objective but instead a subjective construction of the human mind.

At this point my only conclusion is that your feelings have been hurt.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: sudly]
    #23753954 - 10/20/16 03:43 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I'm not saying morality is not useful, I'm saying morality is not inherently good or bad or objective but instead a subjective construction of the human mind.

I don't think you understand what "morality" actually means. To be moral is good, to be immoral is bad. I think what you meant to say is that someones good intentions can be actualised in ways that are immoral. This does not mean that morality itself is in question, that someone cannot act morally or immorally.


My values are based upon explicit observations and science so if you've got any of that to contribute I'd be more than happy to take it on board.

Yeah, refer to the OP. I have outlined a moral dilemma. What are your thoughts?


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: blingbling]
    #23753997 - 10/20/16 04:51 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Morality is the construct of an individuals conscience.
Quote:

Morality: a particular system of values and principles of conduct.



Quote:

Conscience: a person's moral sense of right and wrong, viewed as acting as a guide to one's behaviour.




--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: sudly]
    #23756049 - 10/20/16 08:31 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Morality is one of those words that can easily be misconstrude which is what I believe you are doing. Its kinda like the word "health" Sure health is to some degree a matter of ones individual subjective belief. But, no matter how you try to frame it, it is not healthy to be vomiting every minute of every day.

What I'm trying to say is there are boundaries to what can be considered "moral" is the same way that there are boundaries to what can be considered "health." These things are not purely a product of individual subjective experience. If you don't grant this then you are a moral relativist. Which is fine, but as I said you exclude yourself from arguing what is or is not moral.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: blingbling]
    #23756065 - 10/20/16 08:37 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Health can be divided into the physical health of an individuals body and the mental health of their central nervous system(brain and spine).

Vomiting every day would be a sign of a physical abnormality, perhaps a virus or parasitic infection.

Quote:

Alahu Akbar when done before a bombing translates to 'God is Great' because those individuals who believe in Allah think it is a good thing to commit Jihad.




I think you are a generally good person but I don't think you nor I can deny that there are people in the world who have incredibly diverse ideologies and moralistic beliefs.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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