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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Supply, Demand & Morality
    #23739163 - 10/15/16 04:29 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Income is based on supply and demand economics. A labourer is paid less than an architect because the supply of architects is fewer than the demand due to the difficult training involved, while for labourers the supply is high due to the relatively little training needed and the demand is moderate. If the demand for labourers was to suddenly increase or the skills necessary to be a labourer became more complex it is not unthinkable that a labourer should be paid as much as an architect.

The above example does not create much of a moral dilemma. If your a labourer and you want better pay complete an engineering degree. But, consider the following example: a doctor is paid 100,000 dollars a year while a professional sports person is paid 1,000,000 dollars per year. The demand for competent sports people is high, but the supply is low which is why they are paid 10x the wage of the doctor. But which is really more important? The doctor saves lives while the sports person entertains. Clearly this is a moral dilemma.

Consider the following example which is not based on income. I am not sure of the actual numbers here, but I have it on good authority that this is true. Much more money is spent on the medical research for male pattern baldness than AID's research. This makes sense from a market perspective because men who are balding tend to be older and earn significant incomes, so if one does find a cure for male pattern baldness they will make a lot of money. however, morally this is reprehensible.

The real problem here is that we don't have a better way to allocate resources than supply and demand economics even though in many cases it is morally unjust. The only other kind of modern economy that has been trailed is central planning or communism which was a total disaster. So, what should we do to mitigate or erase these negative moral manifestations of supply and demand economics?


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


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Offlinetump
ban the undead
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Registered: 03/17/16
Posts: 2,383
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: blingbling]
    #23739187 - 10/15/16 05:03 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

More money is made no matter the cost is your problem with the world. Poor people become bald too. Its a numbers game and there is high supply of sports people that just get weeded out. Why pick adds research why not something more deadly faster acting. Because its not common. Hiv isn't even common but people have heard of it. Money spent has nothing to do with morals.


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: tump]
    #23739191 - 10/15/16 05:10 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

The point is that the system of supply and demand doesn't always work for the greater good. Do you agree?


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: blingbling]
    #23739198 - 10/15/16 05:22 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
Income is based on supply and demand economics. A labourer is paid less than an architect because the supply of architects is fewer than the demand due to the difficult training involved,
...



did you know that a wide range of income happens to architects, from zero (thousands of architects are unemployed) to millions of dollars (a few hundred architects in the world have high salaries, and their work is very business oriented)

you can't be so glib as to reference an architect or a doctor and make that mean much more than a person with training and experience in such fields to emphasize an unrelated political position. it is too dehumanizing. some doctors save lives while others can barely pay attention to a sick patient and the nurse does everything.

When it comes to getting a job it is what you bring to the table, and that is largely experience: experience is very valuable. The story and how it is told is most important.

"supply and demand" is an approach that denigrates all the offerings  to enable a pitch for some idea.
the fault in that approach is that it begins by depersonalizing everything. Is it too hard to have a politics in which people and their stories are respected?


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Offlinefalcon
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Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 8,005
Last seen: 1 day, 6 hours
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: blingbling]
    #23740211 - 10/15/16 03:20 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I doubt that it's true that more money is spent on research for male pattern baldness, I doubt that very much money is spent at all on research. The great amounts of money spent on baldness are by individuals as treatment such as transplants.


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23740437 - 10/15/16 05:03 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Is it too hard to have a politics in which people and their stories are respected?

When your dealing with millions of people, yes it is hard to have a politics in which people and their stories are respected.


did you know that a wide range of income happens to architects, from zero (thousands of architects are unemployed) to millions of dollars (a few hundred architects in the world have high salaries, and their work is very business oriented)

you can't be so glib as to reference an architect or a doctor and make that mean much more than a person with training and experience in such fields to emphasize an unrelated political position. it is too dehumanizing. some doctors save lives while others can barely pay attention to a sick patient and the nurse does everything.

When it comes to getting a job it is what you bring to the table, and that is largely experience: experience is very valuable.


Sure, this is all true, but supply and demand can still explain income gaps if you exclude capital gains which is a different story. How about you adress the second example regarding resources spent on research. Do you think it is morally acceptable to spend the same resources researching male pattern baldness as AID's?


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: blingbling]
    #23740482 - 10/15/16 05:26 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

what about football?
the crowds want football
how much research goes into football and the merchandise of football?

aids is big, but literacy is bigger! how much research goes into literacy?


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23740498 - 10/15/16 05:33 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

You've hit the nail on the head my friend. Demand for football is high, does this mean that the same amount of money and resources should be spent on football as literacy programs? To me this creates a moral dilemma as I believe that literacy programs are more important than football despite the fact that according to a supply and demand model football may be more important than literacy.

But, if one were to intervene in the economy to take account of this moral dilemma it would create a series of unintended consequences. So, what should be done? Your posts appear to me to indicate that you believe nothing should be done, at least not at this level.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
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Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: blingbling]
    #23740669 - 10/15/16 07:12 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
Income is based on supply and demand economics. ...

The above example does not create much of a moral dilemma. .... The doctor saves lives while the sports person entertains. Clearly this is a moral dilemma.

Consider the following example ... Much more money is spent on the medical research for male pattern baldness than AID's research. ... however, morally this is reprehensible.

.... So, what should we do to mitigate or erase these negative moral manifestations of supply and demand economics?




much of what goes on in societies is immoral and unjust and frankly stupid

the key words in your question, INMO are "should" & "do" - as in "... what should we do to .."

these words turn a fact into a problem

there are lions and zebras, half of all organisms are parasites, etc.

much of life, and the world are not pleasant

to answer your question more specifically, those who have children generally want them to be as educated as possible - that is dealing with the world as it is, and is about as good as it gets.

"Brave New World" by Huxley examines the question, and how a future society might try to answer it. The results are not appetizing. Some other good science fiction, also examines the issue. Some of the Scandinavian socialist countries do better on some metrics of social health. Some may also have a higher suicide rate. The data is easily findible on the web.


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: laughingdog]
    #23741109 - 10/15/16 11:08 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

blingbling said:
Income is based on supply and demand economics. ...

The above example does not create much of a moral dilemma. .... The doctor saves lives while the sports person entertains. Clearly this is a moral dilemma.

Consider the following example ... Much more money is spent on the medical research for male pattern baldness than AID's research. ... however, morally this is reprehensible.

.... So, what should we do to mitigate or erase these negative moral manifestations of supply and demand economics?




much of what goes on in societies is immoral and unjust and frankly stupid

the key words in your question, INMO are "should" & "do" - as in "... what should we do to .."

these words turn a fact into a problem

there are lions and zebras, half of all organisms are parasites, etc.

much of life, and the world are not pleasant

to answer your question more specifically, those who have children generally want them to be as educated as possible - that is dealing with the world as it is, and is about as good as it gets.

"Brave New World" by Huxley examines the question, and how a future society might try to answer it. The results are not appetizing. Some other good science fiction, also examines the issue. Some of the Scandinavian socialist countries do better on some metrics of social health. Some may also have a higher suicide rate. The data is easily findible on the web.




I respect your 'survival of the fittest' type argument, but I find it unconvincing. I believe you have naturalised a moral and social phenomena in ways which mystify rather than explain.

Let me give you an example of what I mean by naturalise: Rape is a totally natural phenomena. Many species engage in rape, from singled celled organisms to the higher primates. Therefor, we should not stop rapists as they are only doing what is natural, correct?

Just because a phenomena is in some sense natural does not mean it should be tolerated.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
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Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: blingbling] * 1
    #23741391 - 10/16/16 02:37 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

blingbling said:
Income is based on supply and demand economics. ...

The above example does not create much of a moral dilemma. .... The doctor saves lives while the sports person entertains. Clearly this is a moral dilemma.

Consider the following example ... Much more money is spent on the medical research for male pattern baldness than AID's research. ... however, morally this is reprehensible.

.... So, what should we do to mitigate or erase these negative moral manifestations of supply and demand economics?




much of what goes on in societies is immoral and unjust and frankly stupid

the key words in your question, INMO are "should" & "do" - as in "... what should we do to .."

these words turn a fact into a problem

there are lions and zebras, half of all organisms are parasites, etc.

much of life, and the world are not pleasant

to answer your question more specifically, those who have children generally want them to be as educated as possible - that is dealing with the world as it is, and is about as good as it gets.

"Brave New World" by Huxley examines the question, and how a future society might try to answer it. The results are not appetizing. Some other good science fiction, also examines the issue. Some of the Scandinavian socialist countries do better on some metrics of social health. Some may also have a higher suicide rate. The data is easily findible on the web.




I respect your 'survival of the fittest' type argument, but I find it unconvincing. I believe you have naturalised a moral and social phenomena in ways which mystify rather than explain.

Let me give you an example of what I mean by naturalise: Rape is a totally natural phenomena. Many species engage in rape, from singled celled organisms to the higher primates. Therefor, we should not stop rapists as they are only doing what is natural, correct?

Just because a phenomena is in some sense natural does not mean it should be tolerated.




I refer you to aesop's fables
in particular: 'belling the cat'
humans have had war since civilization started
and torture and slaves
we currently have slavery in the usa
it's now called immigrant labor,
that's why they are kept illegal so that they have no rights, and can be forced to work in poor saftey conditions in the slaughter houses and chicken industry for example.

I'm not blind, that's all.
I don't condone this shit.
But in many ways the USA is heaven compared to the rest of the world.

I made no “'survival of the fittest' type argument”
My post was about the way things are.
It contained no comments on what should be or morality or evolution

I also did not attempt to explain why things are the way they are—as you imply: “mystify rather than explain.”

some folks make the choice to do good deeds anyway.
some folks make the choice to keep on learning anyway.
etc.
——————————
as regards “Therefor, we should not stop rapists as they are only doing what is natural, correct?
Just because a phenomena is in some sense natural does not mean it should be tolerated.”

That's the job of police right? And the cops are corrupt and on the take so that has to be fixed too right? And they would prefer to be in donut shops getting fat or giving traffic tickets, so the corrupt small town can make money, rather than doing risky stuff, and the budget has been cut, because the banks were corrupt and caused a mortgage crisis, so patrols have been cut, so the cops would rather shoot unarmed blacks - but if I say I won't tolerate rape - it will all be fixed -- come on man !

Sorry but I predict that no matter what you do with your life you will not change this. I am only the messenger. You can do good deeds, you can help some people, but  you are essentially powerless as regards the big picture.

None of the richest people, none of the smartest people, none of the kindest people, none of the most enlightened people, and none of the most powerful people have made any lasting change in ongoing human brutality, which has a history of thousands of years. Beyond what you mention child starvation is also a fact in the richest nation: the USA. And infant mortality in the USA ranks  worse than numerous other countries. Frankly the entire society is sick.

You can continue to misinterpret me, or feel indignant, but I am only the messenger of common sense, reminding you of what you already know.

By all means devote your life to the service of your fellow man, if you like.


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: laughingdog]
    #23741455 - 10/16/16 04:30 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

you say this:

in many ways the USA is heaven compared to the rest of the world.

and then this:

That's the job of police right? And the cops are corrupt and on the take so that has to be fixed too right? And they would prefer to be in donut shops getting fat or giving traffic tickets, so the corrupt small town can make money, rather than doing risky stuff, and the budget has been cut, because the banks were corrupt and caused a mortgage crisis, so patrols have been cut, so the cops would rather shoot unarmed blacks - but if I say I won't tolerate rape - it will all be fixed -- come on man !


Beyond what you mention child starvation is also a fact in the richest nation: the USA. And infant mortality in the USA ranks  worse than numerous other countries. Frankly the entire society is sick.


If the USA is practically heaven according to you then I would hate to see hell.

To be concise, I think you are overstating how bad things truely are when viewed through the scope of history. Things are actually getting better, at least economically and morally.

And your right, nothing will probably come of this, but its still fun to think about. It poses an interesting puzzle if your into that kind of thing.

Also, the fact that you brought up other animals, loins, zebra's, parasites etc. Indicates to me that you are essentializing immoral economic behaviour in a quasi-naturalistic way.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
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Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: blingbling] * 1
    #23741539 - 10/16/16 06:46 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:


Also, the fact that you brought up other animals, loins, zebra's, parasites etc. Indicates to me that you are essentializing immoral economic behaviour in a quasi-naturalistic way.




I don't know what you mean by "essentializing"

I simply point out the entire physical universe is amoral not immoral. An important difference.
Morality is a human conception.
It's not just biology that is inherently painful, so are earthquakes, tsunamis, floods, volcanoes, plagues, tornadoes hurricanes.

you keep trying to justify projecting a value system, and assume others must be doing the same thing.
I keep trying to point out that, that, is what you are doing.
Also I point out that the world is beyond your control and always will be. Life is a very vulnerable and brief affair, trembling with sensitivity. We are not even in control of the physical sensations that are arising in our own bodies moment to moment.

I am not a Buddhist, but think the dude pretty much got it right.
Suffering/dissatisfaction/unsatisfactoriness is inherent in both the human condition, and that of all sentient beings. According to B we are all subject to disease, old age, infirmity, pain and finally death. Everyone we know will die. All animals kill and eat other life forms, often while they are still alive. There is nothing romantic about this. Amazing yes. Many beautiful forms yes. But pretending it is all marvelous, because human vanity wants to believe itself is the pinnacle of something wonderful, is a fantasy I cannot indulge in.

The only way out, is to start, by in so far as possible, not taking it all personally. And secondly by seeing that what we take to be a 'self' is not our self. I won't go into the whole Buddhist rap.

The fact that of course we don't like this reality, has nothing to do with its factuality. I didn't create this state of affairs. Finding fault with the messenger will change nothing.

As regards your statement "To be concise, I think you are overstating how bad things truely are when viewed through the scope of history. Things are actually getting better, at least economically and morally. "  easy to say from the comfort of the first world ... so lets step outside it - virtually:

we start here , & don't even have to spend a penny to buy a ticket, just need the willingness and curiosity to open our eyes.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=dump+india&t=h_&iax=1&ia=images

then do more image searches of things like ghetto brazil, & gold mines Brazil
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=brazil%2C+gold+mines&t=h_&iar=images&iax=1&ia=images

and doing some research on refugee camps in africa, prisons in Russia and Turkey, stoneings in arab countries, genital mutilation of women, human trafficking, starvation, access to unpolluted drinking water etc.--- we find this is all human caused misery -- we are not even touching on shit like leprosy, malaria, ebola, etc -- yes much of human life is pure hell -- shocking no doubt to those who in live in the 'gated community' called middle class America - where the question is which mall or restaurant to go to today.

And if we consider the planet and rate of species extinction, ocean acidification, presently going on the idea that "Things are actually getting better" really seems a stretch; not to mention terrible air quality in cities, fracking, fukashima, and nuclear power plants near fault lines in the USA. I could go on & on but there's no point in doing so. If the planet goes to hell so do economics and morality.

Seems the best we can do is first do no harm, then if possible be kind, and if educated use our knowledge to help in some small way.

It's rather amusing that the best, some of the billionares can come up with, is building space ships, perhaps to go to mars and colonize. How can they be so smart and so dumb at the same time? Maybe excessive wealth causes some forms of stupidity?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #23741579 - 10/16/16 07:17 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I am trying to see the point of this thread and to tie it back to the title but the repartee is not clarifying the main idea.

I think the main idea is resolving the moral gap, or prioritization of interest/investment in matters that need the most attention for humanity (and the planet).

I actually see that the moral gap is more of a time delay in a recognition gap in face of a plurality of individual and group based interest/investment behaviors and that money (which is only part of the investment) is distracting the thoughts:

take, for instance, football (historically consider gladiators in Rome). The state interest is placated by distracting the masses with vigorous meaningless physical engagement. 2000 years later it is the same but less bloody. I would call this a slow moral advance, in the face of what seems wildly amoral, but actually is functional.

Rape, on the other hand is not in the same category, except at times of war when everything is amoral and terrible - war should not happen - football helps prevent war and rape you could say.

is thinking at this scale immoral?

back to supply and demand - I think a systems view needs to be taken, and morality applied to refine things like the bloody Gladiator game to the institution of Football. This takes patient creativity and understanding.

The system involves the state as an organism and the masses as tissues within it. The brain listens more to the body than it ever has, but this remains a work in progress, and I think it is core to morality, social and personal.

For Morality to work, you must choose your battles, and not exhaust the effort by launching any campaign that might have minor impacts in favor of ones that vector out more successfully. Trial and error will be involved, and if we can work out how to minimize the time gap for issues to less than a millennium, we will have done a good job.

allow that supply and demand is at play in the systems, so the thrust of my comments is to use morality in some situations to influence supply and demand, where the moral interference will have sustainable results.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: laughingdog]
    #23743561 - 10/16/16 07:00 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

blingbling said:


Also, the fact that you brought up other animals, loins, zebra's, parasites etc. Indicates to me that you are essentializing immoral economic behaviour in a quasi-naturalistic way.




I don't know what you mean by "essentializing"

I simply point out the entire physical universe is amoral not immoral. An important difference.
Morality is a human conception.
It's not just biology that is inherently painful, so are earthquakes, tsunamis, floods, volcanoes, plagues, tornadoes hurricanes.

you keep trying to justify projecting a value system, and assume others must be doing the same thing.
I keep trying to point out that, that, is what you are doing.
Also I point out that the world is beyond your control and always will be. Life is a very vulnerable and brief affair, trembling with sensitivity. We are not even in control of the physical sensations that are arising in our own bodies moment to moment.

I am not a Buddhist, but think the dude pretty much got it right.
Suffering/dissatisfaction/unsatisfactoriness is inherent in both the human condition, and that of all sentient beings. According to B we are all subject to disease, old age, infirmity, pain and finally death. Everyone we know will die. All animals kill and eat other life forms, often while they are still alive. There is nothing romantic about this. Amazing yes. Many beautiful forms yes. But pretending it is all marvelous, because human vanity wants to believe itself is the pinnacle of something wonderful, is a fantasy I cannot indulge in.

The only way out, is to start, by in so far as possible, not taking it all personally. And secondly by seeing that what we take to be a 'self' is not our self. I won't go into the whole Buddhist rap.

The fact that of course we don't like this reality, has nothing to do with its factuality. I didn't create this state of affairs. Finding fault with the messenger will change nothing.

As regards your statement "To be concise, I think you are overstating how bad things truely are when viewed through the scope of history. Things are actually getting better, at least economically and morally. "  easy to say from the comfort of the first world ... so lets step outside it - virtually:

we start here , & don't even have to spend a penny to buy a ticket, just need the willingness and curiosity to open our eyes.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=dump+india&t=h_&iax=1&ia=images

then do more image searches of things like ghetto brazil, & gold mines Brazil
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=brazil%2C+gold+mines&t=h_&iar=images&iax=1&ia=images

and doing some research on refugee camps in africa, prisons in Russia and Turkey, stoneings in arab countries, genital mutilation of women, human trafficking, starvation, access to unpolluted drinking water etc.--- we find this is all human caused misery -- we are not even touching on shit like leprosy, malaria, ebola, etc -- yes much of human life is pure hell -- shocking no doubt to those who in live in the 'gated community' called middle class America - where the question is which mall or restaurant to go to today.

And if we consider the planet and rate of species extinction, ocean acidification, presently going on the idea that "Things are actually getting better" really seems a stretch; not to mention terrible air quality in cities, fracking, fukashima, and nuclear power plants near fault lines in the USA. I could go on & on but there's no point in doing so. If the planet goes to hell so do economics and morality.

Seems the best we can do is first do no harm, then if possible be kind, and if educated use our knowledge to help in some small way.

It's rather amusing that the best, some of the billionares can come up with, is building space ships, perhaps to go to mars and colonize. How can they be so smart and so dumb at the same time? Maybe excessive wealth causes some forms of stupidity?




You've pointed out a lot of terrible things in the world and I'm not trying to deny them, but equating economic behaviour with earthquakes and pretor, prey, and parasitic relations just mystifies what are in fact social, rather than biological or geological relations. Obviously these things cannot be fully pulled apart as there is only one reality, but I don't think it is a useful metaphor. Your essentializing in the sense that there is nothing we can really do to stop biology or geology, but social relations are relatively flexible at least in comparison with these other domains of human knowledge.

I am skeptical whenever someone tries to equate human social relations with either "Gods will on earth" or because its "natural" as both of these phases are often used as cover for immoral behaviour.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23743594 - 10/16/16 07:10 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)


Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I am trying to see the point of this thread and to tie it back to the title but the repartee is not clarifying the main idea.

I think the main idea is resolving the moral gap, or prioritization of interest/investment in matters that need the most attention for humanity (and the planet).

I actually see that the moral gap is more of a time delay in a recognition gap in face of a plurality of individual and group based interest/investment behaviors and that money (which is only part of the investment) is distracting the thoughts:

take, for instance, football (historically consider gladiators in Rome). The state interest is placated by distracting the masses with vigorous meaningless physical engagement. 2000 years later it is the same but less bloody. I would call this a slow moral advance, in the face of what seems wildly amoral, but actually is functional.

Rape, on the other hand is not in the same category, except at times of war when everything is amoral and terrible - war should not happen - football helps prevent war and rape you could say.

is thinking at this scale immoral?

back to supply and demand - I think a systems view needs to be taken, and morality applied to refine things like the bloody Gladiator game to the institution of Football. This takes patient creativity and understanding.

The system involves the state as an organism and the masses as tissues within it. The brain listens more to the body than it ever has, but this remains a work in progress, and I think it is core to morality, social and personal.

For Morality to work, you must choose your battles, and not exhaust the effort by launching any campaign that might have minor impacts in favor of ones that vector out more successfully. Trial and error will be involved, and if we can work out how to minimize the time gap for issues to less than a millennium, we will have done a good job.

allow that supply and demand is at play in the systems, so the thrust of my comments is to use morality in some situations to influence supply and demand, where the moral interference will have sustainable results.




Do you think we should have state interventions in the economy when supply and demand economics forces people to act in ways that do not promote the greater good? What do you think that would look like? I think state intervention would probably be the only way this could be done.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: blingbling]
    #23743865 - 10/16/16 08:41 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I think the state has to slowly evolve from a mere protectionist  regional agency (from invasions and destabilizations) to the provider and custodian of human rights and freedoms within its regional authority according to a slowly evolving charter of human rights.

a part of this process may occasionally involve adjustments to existing enforced laws when, by avoidance of said adjustment, long term reduction of human rights will ensue or peace in the land will be threatened.

interference with supply and demand and any other observed interactions may fall into this category of adjustment, but the purpose of said adjustment has to tie directly to clear and substantiated lasting impacts on the peace in the land and integrity of human rights and freedoms.

at this point in time the rights should include basic food water shelter clothing education and medical services as well as freedoms from slavery, mental, physical and sexual abuse and discrimination attributed to age, ability, physical appearance and sex etc.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
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Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: blingbling] * 1
    #23744211 - 10/16/16 11:15 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

QUOTE: "Your essentializing in the sense that there is nothing we can really do to stop biology or geology, but social relations are relatively flexible at least in comparison with these other domains of human knowledge.

I am skeptical whenever someone tries to equate human social relations with either "Gods will on earth" or because its "natural" as both of these phases are often used as cover for immoral behaviour. "

------

Perhaps where we are failing to connect, is that you are interested in theory - and I am not - but you think I am.

I simply point out that it seems to me that "social relations" don't seem to me as flexible as they seem to you. In this country there has been grid lock in Washington for what? about 8 years? with government shut downs - a real mess - now there's an election coming up and the politicians all pretend that they and government can fix things. And some drink the cool aid. And I left out over 200 years of racial prejudice, now escalating again!

So while I agree with your sentiments, I do not believe theory will fix anything, and hear no novel or implementable solutions here. So while it may make good conversation to analyze problems and propose theoretical solutions I don't drink this brand of cool aid either.

Whether we look at the Roman Empire, the Mayan Empire, the Aztec Empire, or any others, we see no escape from certain cycles and mistakes. Once again they are all being repeated, but with worse consequences due to greater world wide population density, amazing advances in technology and weapons and continuous wars.

Because many believe we live in a democracy, in the USA, they believe concomitantly that their choices are powerful. Hopefully we do have some power of choice, in our lives. But when it comes to the big picture, History, anthropology, and archaeology seem to tell a different story. As they say those who don't study history are condemned to repeat it. Our leaders are rather poorly educated, and our culture promotes consummation and entertainment not education.
Bush's idea of giving the third world democracy, was not only arrogant and ironic, but also doomed to failure do to lack of education in those countries. Unfortunately the public is so poorly educated in this country, in many ways , including matters like critical thinking and values and psychology, that great things are not really possible here either in my view.

Lastly it is amusing that you continue to dress me in clothes that are not mine -""Gods will on earth" or because its "natural""

What a joke - either read what I actually say without extrapolating if you want to dialogue...
or for your own sake read some good science on the subject like Marvin Harris and perhaps some history of wars during say the last hundred years & then a thousand years, doesn't take much,it's on the internet. Then the question might be answered if there has ever been a time when humans weren't at war. This is not philosophy.
And Marvin Harris is both a good read and good science.

I would think having a little  curiosity about stuff like world wide arms sales, lobbying, currency wars and manipulation, computer hacking, what's gone on with Guantanamo bay, exported CIA torture, the School of the Americas, why we have hundreds of military bases world wide, etc. would disabuse most anyone of thinking that getting a few folks on a message board to agree with them about theory will initiate meaningful change.

'Doctors without boarders' are some guys and gals that are into action; it is possible to do some modest amount of good by making a commitment.


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23747713 - 10/18/16 12:28 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I think the state has to slowly evolve from a mere protectionist  regional agency (from invasions and destabilizations) to the provider and custodian of human rights and freedoms within its regional authority according to a slowly evolving charter of human rights.

a part of this process may occasionally involve adjustments to existing enforced laws when, by avoidance of said adjustment, long term reduction of human rights will ensue or peace in the land will be threatened.

interference with supply and demand and any other observed interactions may fall into this category of adjustment, but the purpose of said adjustment has to tie directly to clear and substantiated lasting impacts on the peace in the land and integrity of human rights and freedoms.

at this point in time the rights should include basic food water shelter clothing education and medical services as well as freedoms from slavery, mental, physical and sexual abuse and discrimination attributed to age, ability, physical appearance and sex etc.




Do you think that immoral economic behaviour like when supply and demand economics fails to promote the greater good is a violation of human rights? How would you justify this?


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Supply, Demand & Morality [Re: laughingdog]
    #23747726 - 10/18/16 12:38 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
QUOTE: "Your essentializing in the sense that there is nothing we can really do to stop biology or geology, but social relations are relatively flexible at least in comparison with these other domains of human knowledge.

I am skeptical whenever someone tries to equate human social relations with either "Gods will on earth" or because its "natural" as both of these phases are often used as cover for immoral behaviour. "

------

Perhaps where we are failing to connect, is that you are interested in theory - and I am not - but you think I am.

I simply point out that it seems to me that "social relations" don't seem to me as flexible as they seem to you. In this country there has been grid lock in Washington for what? about 8 years? with government shut downs - a real mess - now there's an election coming up and the politicians all pretend that they and government can fix things. And some drink the cool aid. And I left out over 200 years of racial prejudice, now escalating again!

So while I agree with your sentiments, I do not believe theory will fix anything, and hear no novel or implementable solutions here. So while it may make good conversation to analyze problems and propose theoretical solutions I don't drink this brand of cool aid either.

Whether we look at the Roman Empire, the Mayan Empire, the Aztec Empire, or any others, we see no escape from certain cycles and mistakes. Once again they are all being repeated, but with worse consequences due to greater world wide population density, amazing advances in technology and weapons and continuous wars.

Because many believe we live in a democracy, in the USA, they believe concomitantly that their choices are powerful. Hopefully we do have some power of choice, in our lives. But when it comes to the big picture, History, anthropology, and archaeology seem to tell a different story. As they say those who don't study history are condemned to repeat it. Our leaders are rather poorly educated, and our culture promotes consummation and entertainment not education.
Bush's idea of giving the third world democracy, was not only arrogant and ironic, but also doomed to failure do to lack of education in those countries. Unfortunately the public is so poorly educated in this country, in many ways , including matters like critical thinking and values and psychology, that great things are not really possible here either in my view.

Lastly it is amusing that you continue to dress me in clothes that are not mine -""Gods will on earth" or because its "natural""

What a joke - either read what I actually say without extrapolating if you want to dialogue...
or for your own sake read some good science on the subject like Marvin Harris and perhaps some history of wars during say the last hundred years & then a thousand years, doesn't take much,it's on the internet. Then the question might be answered if there has ever been a time when humans weren't at war. This is not philosophy.
And Marvin Harris is both a good read and good science.

I would think having a little  curiosity about stuff like world wide arms sales, lobbying, currency wars and manipulation, computer hacking, what's gone on with Guantanamo bay, exported CIA torture, the School of the Americas, why we have hundreds of military bases world wide, etc. would disabuse most anyone of thinking that getting a few folks on a message board to agree with them about theory will initiate meaningful change.

'Doctors without boarders' are some guys and gals that are into action; it is possible to do some modest amount of good by making a commitment.




Maybe you should check out steven pinker and his book The Better Angels of our Nature as it shows that when viewed in comparison to the vast sweep of history, life, at least economically and morally is getting better. I don't believe everything he says, but some of his points are undeniable in my opinion.

I don't mean to come of as pompous, but I think you should educate yourself regarding how bad things actually were just a few hundred years ago. Those times were so violent in comparison to today that it appears alien to the modern mind.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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