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Offlinenoppie
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Rye substrate without simmering?
    #23735864 - 10/14/16 12:56 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Trying Rye grain substrate first time..

I think I forgot to simmer :/
Do you think I have a chance to grow healthy myc without simmering?

Update: After 6 days inoculated mycelium from Agar plate.



Are these looking healthy?


Edited by noppie (10/19/16 05:13 AM)


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OfflineGreg
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Re: Rye substrate without simmering? [Re: noppie]
    #23735867 - 10/14/16 12:59 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Sure you have a chance.
A chance to grow mold.

You need to pressure cook grains, not even simmering is enough.


Edit to anyone who reads this or the quoted stuff below:
I read the OP wrong...


Edited by Greg (10/14/16 01:51 AM)


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Offlinenoppie
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Re: Rye substrate without simmering? [Re: Greg]
    #23735887 - 10/14/16 01:31 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Greg said:
Sure you have a chance.
A chance to grow mold.

You need to pressure cook grains, not even simmering is enough.




I have pressure cooked already, but skip simmering only. Is that a problem? You you would do? throw away and start over again?


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InvisibleTuhdoww
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Re: Rye substrate without simmering? [Re: noppie]
    #23735888 - 10/14/16 01:33 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

noppie said:
Quote:

Greg said:
Sure you have a chance.
A chance to grow mold.

You need to pressure cook grains, not even simmering is enough.




I have pressure cooked already, but skip simmering only. Is that a problem? You you would do? throw away and start over again?




Yea simmering is what gives it the internal moisture.
The difference between soaked grain and simmered grain is so much. Soaking basically does nothing at all.


Edited by Tuhdoww (10/14/16 01:37 AM)


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OfflineGreg
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Re: Rye substrate without simmering? [Re: Tuhdoww]
    #23735894 - 10/14/16 01:44 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I just realized I read this post totally wrong...
For some reason I read simmering and thought he was trying to steam like you do with PF jars, it's late.
Carry on, apologies to the OP for being a shitlark.

Yes you need to simmer your grains before PCing.
If you don't they wont be nearly hydrated enough as the user above me said.


Edited by Greg (10/14/16 01:50 AM)


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Offlinenoppie
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Re: Rye substrate without simmering? [Re: Greg]
    #23735909 - 10/14/16 01:57 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Yea simmering is what gives it the internal moisture.
The difference between soaked grain and simmered grain is so much. Soaking basically does nothing at all.




I pressure cooked they're now in cooling step. So can I use those cooked ones? or throw them and start with fresh rye grains?


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OfflineKingM3
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Re: Rye substrate without simmering? [Re: noppie]
    #23735916 - 10/14/16 02:00 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Toss them. I've only seen one tek that doest soak and they PC with the water in the jars. I have never done that way cause it seems foolish. Toss them and just do the rinse soak and simmer. Save the spores


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Offlinetwistedty
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Re: Rye substrate without simmering? [Re: KingM3]
    #23735993 - 10/14/16 03:25 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Let them ride,  and while you wait start a new batch.  The reason we simmer is to fully hydrate the inside of the grain.

Outside dry inside hydrated


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OfflineKingM3
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Re: Rye substrate without simmering? [Re: twistedty]
    #23736000 - 10/14/16 03:31 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Since he PC them hxan he still simmer them then PC again? I'm just curious


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Re: Rye substrate without simmering? [Re: KingM3]
    #23736007 - 10/14/16 03:37 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Nah it can still turn out fine.  Do not resimmer or PC.  Just see what happens.

But start a new batch from soak and simmer.


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InvisibleMad Season
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Re: Rye substrate without simmering? [Re: twistedty]
    #23736034 - 10/14/16 04:08 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I bet it'll be fine. Smaller grains almost never need a simmer. Rye is on the larger side tho, so who knows..


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Re: Rye substrate without simmering? [Re: Mad Season]
    #23736285 - 10/14/16 08:05 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

This all depends on if he did a soak hydration or not. With soaking the simmer is to steam off the excess water. If he didn't soak or didn't soak long, a simmer won't be needed because the excess water will be pulled into the grain during PC cycle. Depending on his prep the moisture content may be off or might be perfect. Of course pics will help immensely.


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Re: Rye substrate without simmering? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #23736775 - 10/14/16 11:00 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Update your terminology. Rye grain is used as a spawn material. "Substrate" is what you spawn to.


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InvisibleMad Season
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Re: Rye substrate without simmering? [Re: freespeech]
    #23736787 - 10/14/16 11:03 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Technically it is a substrate, as well as spawn.

All spawn is substrate, but not all substrates are spawn xD kinda like fingers and thumbs.


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Re: Rye substrate without simmering? [Re: Mad Season]
    #23736975 - 10/14/16 12:15 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I've soaked and not simmered before. It works if you soak for 48 hours. Then rinse the fuck out of your grain


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Re: Rye substrate without simmering? [Re: Mad Season]
    #23739081 - 10/15/16 02:16 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Just did agar to grain jars. I'll update this post with photos.

I'm curious what's the ideal temp for storage?
How many days I see for a sign of growth?
Quote:

Mad Season said:
I bet it'll be fine. Smaller grains almost never need a simmer. Rye is on the larger side tho, so who knows..




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Offlinenoppie
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Re: Rye substrate without simmering? [Re: noppie]
    #23751153 - 10/19/16 05:14 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Just updated original post with pictures.


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Re: Rye substrate without simmering? [Re: noppie]
    #23751249 - 10/19/16 06:56 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Seems like it's coming along nicely.
Them grains look good.


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Offlinenoppie
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Re: Rye substrate without simmering? [Re: Tuhdoww]
    #23751267 - 10/19/16 07:21 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Tuhdoww said:
Seems like it's coming along nicely.
Them grains look good.




Should I shake those jars? If yes when?


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Offlineenlightenment
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Re: Rye substrate without simmering? [Re: noppie]
    #23751271 - 10/19/16 07:25 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

yes shake it if it is about 30% colonized.


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Invisibleblindingleaf
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Re: Rye substrate without simmering? [Re: enlightenment]
    #23751284 - 10/19/16 07:31 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

dunno how u did it, but do it again next time dude cause those grains are on POINT prep wise.

shake when growth is about the size of a closed fist


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InvisibleTuhdoww
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Re: Rye substrate without simmering? [Re: blindingleaf]
    #23751295 - 10/19/16 07:37 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

blindingleaf said:
dunno how u did it, but do it again next time dude cause those grains are on POINT prep wise.





Right!! I was like dang those are some sexy grains for not being boiled.
I see not one spec of extra liquid and they're all uniformly plump and brown. No bursts. :nyan:


Edited by Tuhdoww (10/19/16 07:40 AM)


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Offlineenlightenment
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Re: Rye substrate without simmering? [Re: blindingleaf]
    #23751328 - 10/19/16 08:08 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

blindingleaf said:
shake when growth is about the size of a closed fist




my closed fist is almost the size of his jar :laugh:

I think after 30%-50% is colonized it is a good time to shake. Shaking too early does not help much. Better to shake a little too late.

In this special case i would not wait too long and definitely shake the jar because there is a risk that the grain dries out before it is fully colonized.


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Re: Rye substrate without simmering? [Re: enlightenment]
    #23751408 - 10/19/16 08:55 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Ya big German bastard.
I agree though.


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Re: Rye substrate without simmering? [Re: azur]
    #23751496 - 10/19/16 09:39 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

You should not even be simmering the rye, you should boil it for 10 minutes after a 24 hour soak, then strain into a colander while the water is still boiling so that the grains dry from the steam escaping.


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Re: Rye substrate without simmering? [Re: bootsyyy]
    #23752120 - 10/19/16 02:10 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

You can easily monitor your moisture content by weighing. In this old thread I did it with wheat, which is similar enough to rye

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4327704

Quote:

grain in a 24hr cold soak only absorbed 57.5ml per 100g. 48hr soak gave 60ml per 100g. 7 day cold soak was still only 92.5ml per 100g.




I say "only" there, but that 92.5ml moisture content would be what many use. In that thread I poured boiling water on preheated grains and it got to 100g (100ml) absorbed in 100g wheat grain.

If my wheat was say 13% moisture (typical) then 100g grain is 87g dry, and so the 48hr soak meant it absorbed an additional 60g water, so had 73g water and 87g dry matter, 160g overall, which is 45.6% moisture while many aim for 50%, depending on jar size. RR said his grain ended up 40% moisture content after his instructions in his videos. As said in this thread https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4371401

This seems quite low and I am unsure if he was including the natural moisture.

The 1 week soak absorbed 92.5ml (92.5g was added), the calculation if 13% natural moisture is (92.5+13)/192.5=54.8% moisture. In the book GGMM this is what Paul Stamets recommends 50% for quart jars (200g rye 200ml water) and 60% for 16oz jars (100g rye 150ml water), these are the percentages he uses in the book, they are rounded based on those recipes.

In this old thread I show a few vendors were instructing to use more water than Stamets, back when they felt they were pretty free to post recipes before the PF incident.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4371401

I wondered about soaking under pressure, or even under vacuum, people marinate chicken under vacuum, I thought under pressure would be better but I think it is drawing air out of the chicken and so moisture is drawn in. I will try this myself at some stage, under pressure not vacuum. 2L coke bottles can easily have car/bicycle schrader valves fitted to them, and then pumped up.


Edited by blackout (10/19/16 03:09 PM)


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