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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

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IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU 1
#23735160 - 10/13/16 07:28 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think the above quote from Friedrich Nietzsche's Beyond Good and Evil is an excellent description of what it is like to be an atheist.
I am an atheist, but I find some of the optimistic atheists like Richard Dawkins or Neil Degrasse Tyson lame. I think they ignore the traumatic aspects of atheism and secularism which is so much a part of modernity.
In my opinion the trauma of secularism is the driving force behind our modern identity politics and the increasing political polarisation. Its like everyone is scrambling to say "no! i'm real! i have an identity see!"
All the while the abyss continues to gaze into our collective soul and our only repose is to become more and more entrenched in our own groping for significance.
What'ya think?
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling] 4
#23735281 - 10/13/16 08:14 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think that being dramatic about identity drives fundamentalism.
Then the idea (faith, or cause) erases the individual.
So easy to insert a big mystery into a small infinity.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: redgreenvines]
#23735435 - 10/13/16 09:09 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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My question for you is: why be dramatic about identity?
In my opinion people become invested in an identity because of their fear of life's meaninglessness, what Nietzsche calls the abyss. This is true even of atheists. People willingly erase themselves, because it is too hard to live with themselves.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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remake


Registered: 01/05/16
Posts: 4,178
Loc: South Africa
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
#23735900 - 10/14/16 01:46 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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By being true to ourselves, our contexts, our abilities what have you, we see similarities that are relatable, meaningful and diverse, but often times discounted in ourselves due to fear of embarrassment or shame. Most of our interactions are surface and any commonality is merely fabricated with a diversion from this construction of "normal" (ideology centred - fake - plastic) results in judgement. By going inwards, we go outwards. It's not about being right. It's about being a human being who recognizes other human beings who are, in essence same same, but meaningfully different.
Edited by remake (10/14/16 02:46 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
#23735970 - 10/14/16 03:08 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
blingbling said: My question for you is: why be dramatic about identity?
In my opinion people become invested in an identity because of their fear of life's meaninglessness, what Nietzsche calls the abyss. This is true even of atheists. People willingly erase themselves, because it is too hard to live with themselves.
maybe it is defensiveness, not being appreciated as a human by other human family members... then adopting the normative ideas and behaviors to better fit in with the group... erasing themselves, because it is too hard to fight normative constraints.
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zzripz
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
#23735985 - 10/14/16 03:17 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
blingbling said: My question for you is: why be dramatic about identity?
In my opinion people become invested in an identity because of their fear of life's meaninglessness, what Nietzsche calls the abyss. This is true even of atheists. People willingly erase themselves, because it is too hard to live with themselves.
If your worldview/belief/certainty/faith that 'life is meaningless', why do you suppose this should be how others feel about life, and try and impose your views on them?
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: redgreenvines]
#23735994 - 10/14/16 03:25 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Not being appreciated by other humans can definitely push someone into a ridged stance regarding their identity, but I think modern societies increasingly secular nature also does this by denying meaningfulness at a cosmic scale.
In a secular society all we have is meaning at the level of society, rather than meaningfulness at the cosmic level like in a religious society.
Because we are starved of cosmic meaning we inflate the meanings imposed on us by society.
Atheism as it is usually spoken of by its advocates rarely takes this into account.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: zzripz]
#23736012 - 10/14/16 03:39 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
Quote:
blingbling said: My question for you is: why be dramatic about identity?
In my opinion people become invested in an identity because of their fear of life's meaninglessness, what Nietzsche calls the abyss. This is true even of atheists. People willingly erase themselves, because it is too hard to live with themselves.
If your worldview/belief/certainty/faith that 'life is meaningless', why do you suppose this should be how others feel about life, and try and impose your views on them?
I'm not imposing my views on anyone friend. Its a simple observation. Do you know anybody who upon hearing that life is pointless would rejoice? People are meaning making machines. We find pointlessness unbearable. Its human nature.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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Brian Jones
Club 27



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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
#23736110 - 10/14/16 05:34 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
blingbling said: I think the above quote from Friedrich Nietzsche's Beyond Good and Evil is an excellent description of what it is like to be an atheist.
I am an atheist, but I find some of the optimistic atheists like Richard Dawkins or Neil Degrasse Tyson lame. I think they ignore the traumatic aspects of atheism and secularism which is so much a part of modernity.
In my opinion the trauma of secularism is the driving force behind our modern identity politics and the increasing political polarisation. Its like everyone is scrambling to say "no! i'm real! i have an identity see!"
All the while the abyss continues to gaze into our collective soul and our only repose is to become more and more entrenched in our own groping for significance.
What'ya think?
Shit I guess it was Nietzche. I just remember that line from "Wallstreet" when the feds come into the office to take Charley Sheen away and his mentor Hal Holbrook says that to him.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
#23736275 - 10/14/16 07:59 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
blingbling said: Not being appreciated by other humans can definitely push someone into a ridged stance regarding their identity, but I think modern societies increasingly secular nature also does this by denying meaningfulness at a cosmic scale.
In a secular society all we have is meaning at the level of society, rather than meaningfulness at the cosmic level like in a religious society.
Because we are starved of cosmic meaning we inflate the meanings imposed on us by society.
Atheism as it is usually spoken of by its advocates rarely takes this into account.
as if we were victims? as if someone makes us into starvee's from the cosmic richness...
back to the point of self, we probably neglect our personal meaning voluntarily, and so starve ourselves of the personal references and associations which are what make us who we are.
I think we are attracted to norms and sometimes bullied into accepting them when we are not attracted to joining a group/ a religion/ or a political party.
the cosmic richness (and all that is between the frames) is within, and it is equally available to atheist as it is to theist or agnostic. What I like about psychedelics most is observing what is happening between the frames, noticing familiar phenomena that we edit out, visual, auditory, physical and conceptual.
This reminds me to leave in what I tend to skip, to let it be as it is, and not to edit my story, or change my meaning, because of some big idea or for the cause of being 'normal'
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phio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
#23737377 - 10/14/16 02:44 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
blingbling said: I think the above quote from Friedrich Nietzsche's Beyond Good and Evil is an excellent description of what it is like to be an atheist.
I am an atheist, but I find some of the optimistic atheists like Richard Dawkins or Neil Degrasse Tyson lame. I think they ignore the traumatic aspects of atheism and secularism which is so much a part of modernity.
In my opinion the trauma of secularism is the driving force behind our modern identity politics and the increasing political polarisation. Its like everyone is scrambling to say "no! i'm real! i have an identity see!"
All the while the abyss continues to gaze into our collective soul and our only repose is to become more and more entrenched in our own groping for significance.
What'ya think?
No man asserts that they believe in nothing yet feverishly spends their lives looking for something.
Modernity : Nothing is new under the son. The nature of man is such that they must journey to discover that which has always been, is, and will continue to be. There is nothing modern about the truth or the laws that govern the Universe. What is modern is man's conception(s) of it.
Gazing into the abyss isn't exclusive to being an Atheist. The fact that you believe there to be an abyss and thus stare into it highlights your belief in something infinite.
All of man's systems of knowledge rely on faith. Many just aren't wise enough to see it. A body of faith lasts the test of time when there are truths present in it. One such body of faith is science. There are many other such older faiths which are still present over thousands of years because there are truths in them.
Man has free-will. When they become polarized its by their own hands. Division occurs when there is a lack of truth. Political polarization is occurring because there is a lack of truth present in it. The very nature of politics centers on lies.
Propaganda is information, especially of a biased nature, used to promote or publicise a particular political cause or point of view. Propaganda is often associated with the psychological mechanisms of influencing and altering the attitude of a population toward a specific cause, position or political agenda in an effort to form a consensus to a standard set of belief patterns.
The truth is barren of intent. Politics is propaganda.
Everyone is scrambling and there is mass confusion as a body of lies serves as their foundation and is at the foundation of many institutions.
What do I think?
I think you are quite confused as to what's going on and your post reflects that. The abyss is not of the nature many propose it to be and it is being falsely associated with the failings of man in your post.
"IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU"
What is the abyss? a deep or seemingly bottomless chasm. The infinite.
"IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE infinite, THE infinite WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU"
Scared of what you might see?
Don't be such a ****
 You're not supposed to believe in such things after-all.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: phio]
#23737720 - 10/14/16 04:44 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
phio said: What is the abyss?
The abyss is the void left by the death of God.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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phio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
#23737909 - 10/14/16 05:43 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
blingbling said:
Quote:
phio said: What is the abyss?
The abyss is the void left by the death of God.
Something that you don't believe in as a self-professed Athiest?
Or souls for that matter either?
Quote:
blingbling said: "All the while the abyss continues to gaze into our collective soul and our only repose is to become more and more entrenched in our own groping for significance."
Or do you? So, what again about the abyss and God?
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: phio]
#23738858 - 10/14/16 11:44 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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It is my belief that even as an atheist one should perserve the language of the sacred as some things can only be said using this vocabulary. Furthermore, the use of the language of the sacred by an atheist highlights the very lack inherent in atheism, the abyss if you will.
You have to understand friend, I am not prostelizing atheism. I think atheism is a tragic position, but a true position, and unfortunately not everything that is true is satisfying. So, I respect your apparent belief in the "infinite that gazes into you" but it is not mine.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: redgreenvines]
#23738868 - 10/14/16 11:48 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
blingbling said: Not being appreciated by other humans can definitely push someone into a ridged stance regarding their identity, but I think modern societies increasingly secular nature also does this by denying meaningfulness at a cosmic scale.
In a secular society all we have is meaning at the level of society, rather than meaningfulness at the cosmic level like in a religious society.
Because we are starved of cosmic meaning we inflate the meanings imposed on us by society.
Atheism as it is usually spoken of by its advocates rarely takes this into account.
as if we were victims? as if someone makes us into starvee's from the cosmic richness...
back to the point of self, we probably neglect our personal meaning voluntarily, and so starve ourselves of the personal references and associations which are what make us who we are.
I think we are attracted to norms and sometimes bullied into accepting them when we are not attracted to joining a group/ a religion/ or a political party.
the cosmic richness (and all that is between the frames) is within, and it is equally available to atheist as it is to theist or agnostic. What I like about psychedelics most is observing what is happening between the frames, noticing familiar phenomena that we edit out, visual, auditory, physical and conceptual.
This reminds me to leave in what I tend to skip, to let it be as it is, and not to edit my story, or change my meaning, because of some big idea or for the cause of being 'normal'
I gather from your post that you believe a strong dose of psychedelics would have profound effects on our predicament regarding identity politics. I believe this also.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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phio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
#23738941 - 10/15/16 12:32 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
blingbling said: It is my belief that even as an atheist one should perserve the language of the sacred as some things can only be said using this vocabulary. Furthermore, the use of the language of the sacred by an atheist highlights the very lack inherent in atheism, the abyss if you will.
An atheists is someone who doesn't believe in God. The infinite... the abyss.. Or souls for that matter. Language of the sacred... God's words?
You're tripping over yourself which is the cause for your confusion and most probably man's in this 'modern' age of identity crisis..
Quote:
blingbling said: You have to understand friend, I am not prostelizing atheism.
By your own accounts and words, you're not an atheist thus this makes sense. You'd have a hard time proselytizing a belief that you openly contradict.
Quote:
blingbling said: I think atheism is a tragic position, but a true position
A position that you openly conflict with along with much of the universe. Indeed a tragedy as it is hardly true.
Quote:
blingbling said: , and unfortunately not everything that is true is satisfying.
That is because satisfaction is subjective and is "fulfillment of one's wishes, expectations, or needs, or the pleasure derived from this"
One's wishes can conflict with the truth which is the cause for man's suffering and afflictions.
Quote:
blingbling said: So, I respect your apparent belief in the "infinite that gazes into you" but it is not mine.
The infinite bothers you apparently which is why you created a thread entitled : "IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU"
I have never stated my what my beliefs were just pointing out the conflicts with yours
Edited by phio (10/15/16 12:42 AM)
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: phio] 1
#23739123 - 10/15/16 03:24 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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The infinite bothers you apparently
By referring to "the abyss" I am not denying the possibility of infinity, I am simply denying the possibility that this infinity has a personality, can hear my prayers, becomes wrathful when disobeyed etc. This is the definition of atheism.
The quote in the title of this thread is simply a metaphor. The fact that I had to spell that out to you saddens me. By your own accounts and words, you're not an atheist
Its pretty pretentious of you to claim to know more about my beliefs than myself. Its clear to me that you entered this thread with a chip on your shoulder.
Perhaps the gaze of the abyss has been cast upon your soul? That would explain your arrogant attitude.
I have attempted to extend you an olive branch and yet you continue to berate me as if I have personally offended you. It seems to me that you are picking a fight to cover up your own insecurities.
Continue your tirade if you think it will make you feel more supported regarding your own spiritual position, which is clearly in doubt, but you will only find yourself digging a deeper hole.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
Edited by blingbling (10/15/16 03:38 AM)
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zzripz
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
#23739161 - 10/15/16 04:28 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
blingbling said: The abyss is the void left by the death of God.
'God' was a creation BY those who already had psychologically created a void between themselves and experience, and of course thus connection with the whole of the living intelligent natural world.
So to suggest that the death of that idea is the void is an irony of ironies!
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: zzripz]
#23739172 - 10/15/16 04:39 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
Quote:
blingbling said: The abyss is the void left by the death of God.
'God' was a creation BY those who already had psychologically created a void between themselves and experience, and of course thus connection with the whole of the living intelligent natural world.
So to suggest that the death of that idea is the void is an irony of ironies!
The idea of God was the solidification of the spiritual power of nature into a single individual. When you remove this individual you remove the spiritual power of nature and leave behind a void of meaninglessness.
I agree that the idea of God creates a void between the individual and God (and therefor a void between the individual and nature) But think about the abolition of God as being an extension of that void to all things, not just humanities relation to God. Time and space become a vast and never ending emptiness devoid of human made meanings.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
#23739374 - 10/15/16 07:48 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
blingbling said: ... I gather from your post that you believe a strong dose of psychedelics would have profound effects on our predicament regarding identity politics. I believe this also.
any dose that might help shift the focus back into (the self in) the moment is a good one
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
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zzripz
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
#23739486 - 10/15/16 09:00 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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#edit
Edited by zzripz (10/15/16 11:20 AM)
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phio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
#23739964 - 10/15/16 01:20 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
blingbling said: By referring to "the abyss" I am not denying the possibility of infinity, I am simply denying the possibility that this infinity has a personality, can hear my prayers, becomes wrathful when disobeyed etc. This is the definition of atheism.
I don't recall anyone asserting such attributes. Further, you seemed to present quite the flawed interpretation as to what theism suggests.
If someone comes to America, eats at McDonalds, and then goes on to declares that American food is horrible and they will never eat it again, that's on them for not having 'GAZED LONG'.
You're using language such as Souls and sacred texts. You declare that this non-existent force (as atheist assert) is the mechanism behind political polarization.
You're conflicting, contradicting, and denying things that you're asserting including atheism. That is quite clear.
Quote:
blingbling said: The quote in the title of this thread is simply a metaphor. The fact that I had to spell that out to you saddens me.
Yes because my ability to clearly point out your conflicts with it and your stated belief suggest that I don't understand what is implied by an oft misunderstood metaphor.
Quote:
blingbling said: Its pretty pretentious of you to claim to know more about my beliefs than myself. Its clear to me that you entered this thread with a chip on your shoulder.
Please calm yourself. Critical discussion is critical discussion. When you make bold pronouncements for which you contradict without end please don't take offense to someone who points it out or project chips onto their shoulders because you are upset that they didn't nod their head and turn a blind eye to your contradictions and conflict.
Quote:
blingbling said: Perhaps the gaze of the abyss has been cast upon your soul? That would explain your arrogant attitude.
Please stop projecting. It's unbecoming. If you could nullify my declarations of your contradictions with reasoned statements you would. Instead you're now resorting to name calling and mis-attribution much like your mis-attribution for man's conflicts, contentions, and polarizations on something that you claim doesn't exist.
Quote:
blingbling said: I have attempted to extend you an olive branch and yet you continue to berate me as if I have personally offended you. It seems to me that you are picking a fight to cover up your own insecurities.
This is a critical discussion so far as I can see. There is no need to extend an Olive Branch. In your opening post you contradict yourself and misattribute a capability to something you claim doesn't exist. I pointed it out. If my commentary was flawed you would have and could have easily highlighted what was flawed about it. You claim something is sacred, speak of souls, talk about voids, infinities, abyss's .. Note the complex and intricate structure, purpose, and consciousness present in the Universe but claim there was no overarching consciousness that made it so.. Yes because logically such complexity arises out of nowhere and magic.
Quote:
blingbling said: Continue your tirade if you think it will make you feel more supported regarding your own spiritual position, which is clearly in doubt, but you will only find yourself digging a deeper hole.
You dug your hole at the thread open. If you were with defense you'd present it. Instead you're deflecting...
My spirituality grew btw when I held it up to strong critique and revised and grew it when I found it wasn't able to withstand criticism.
Man's polarization and conflicts are caused by an unwillingness to break down their belief when there are contradictions and opposing evidence abound. It's the very ego at play that you seem to mention loosely. It has nothing to do with the infinite and everything to do with the finite.
If you gaze long into the abyss and truly so, the abyss will gaze back into you and be reflected in you. If you search for the infinite truth and journey long into it, the infinite truth and journey will be reflected in you. Gazing into the infinite (God) does not create polarization. It performs the opposite : it unifies.
It's when man gazes out into the infinite clearly structured universe and ignorantly asserts that there is no consciousness above and beyond themselves that they become polarized from the infinite and others. As such, what's reflected in them is the (finite) ego. It is the ego which looks at 1000s of years of clear minded people who have thought the same deep thoughts about the infinite and have settled on understanding and asserts that it is foolery.
I am not a fool and embrace truth and knowledge wherever it may come. I embrace the infinite in all of its forms and manifestations. I don't sit here presuming that consciousness is something only randomly given to man or assert that we are the highest form of it when the universe clearly demonstrates were not.
Good day to you and good luck with the belief in nothing yet finding yourself oft troubled by 'something'.
P.S - People made words for these things so we didn't have millions of bobble heads asserting their own version of the same phenomenon. It may be fashionable in modern times to assert you have some bold new understanding but nothing is new under the sun. Unification occurs when man unifies on concepts not when everyone is running around in disbelief and confusion.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: phio]
#23740296 - 10/15/16 03:53 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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You are reading ideas into me which I have not espoused. This is typical of self-righteous thiest's. They pretend to know things that they couldn't possibly know.
Furthermore, your attempt to police my language is typical of modern identity politics. Ironically your attempt at critique has demonstrated the very ideas I was attempting to explicate. Your uneasiness with the death of God has forced you into a ridged identity structure such that even the the very existence of an opposing view is intolerable. Therefor, you must fabricate motivations and contradictions in others that don't exist.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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phio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
#23740374 - 10/15/16 04:28 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
blingbling said: You are reading ideas into me which I have not espoused. This is typical of self-righteous thiest's. They pretend to know things that they couldn't possibly know.
Furthermore, your attempt to police my language is typical of modern identity politics. Ironically your attempt at critique has demonstrated the very ideas I was attempting to explicate. Your uneasiness with the death of God has forced you into a ridged identity structure such that even the the very existence of an opposing view is intolerable. Therefor, you must fabricate motivations and contradictions in others that don't exist.
If you could only express what exactly you're trying to say, we could move somewhere. All you've done in reply is name call...
Where's your established comments to show that your statements are without contradiction and aren't conflict? Nowhere..
A bold quote, misattribution, conflict, and contradiction devoid of any supporting arguments. Atheism.
An all caps thread title should have told me something but I dared to think something of deeper value was going to be discussed.
I gain nothing by abandoning science, logic and clear demonstrations of structure and purpose which atheism actively choses to ignore. If you were able to propose a benefit to a belief in nothing, I'd be all ears. At the subatomic and universal scales, a belief in nothing hinders discovery and understanding. It is not a path i chose to take and thus don't remain confused.
You present no higher minded case, support, or view point so I fail to see why you think I am hurt or impacted by your views.
I came here expecting something deep was going to be discussed.. Anywho, i'm out..
Edited by phio (10/15/16 04:43 PM)
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: phio]
#23740415 - 10/15/16 04:54 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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If you were able to propose a benefit to a belief in nothing, I'd be all ears
1. I'm not arguing for a belief in nothing. I claim to be an atheist, not a nihilist.
2. The whole point of this thread is that at the psychological level there is no benefit, in fact, I have argued that their is a deficit of meaning. You appear to be looking for something in this thread that isn't there, namely the confirmation of the beliefs which you entered the thread with.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: phio]
#23740485 - 10/15/16 05:28 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Many ideas have truth to them, but when we're talking about metaphysical reality the truth is partly made of belief, feelings, instincts, so we should consider that defining the abyss is to misdefine it unless we speak in dualistic terms. The abyss could be a sense of mortal despair in the face of eternity, or the sense of a timeless reality who's source can be felt but not seen. Hollow, or full.
I guess in that light it makes sense that 90 some percent of humanity chooses religious belief rather than a desperate sense of living in this existence with no purpose. There is a third way that involves having no beliefs regarding the unexplained and being at the least ambivalent, not towards beliefs, but of the experience itself. Beliefs are made of words, and words can be provocative. It doesn't matter whether they are true or not. I am not suggesting a repressive stance, but that our sense of curiosity cannot stay too long with the same mind set. Gazing long and gazing too long might not be an extremely fine line, but there's no reason to have a sense of allegiance to a metaphysical reality the mind conjures up. That could apply to all realities regardless of whether they provide blankets or cause suffering.
There is a narrative with many possible branches and we are constantly putting ourselves into the narrative because that is what there is to do. Whether it's pointless or not is a secondary issue, a subjective viewpoint of an objective reality we don't fully understand. The abysmal atheist shares a quality with the hopeful believer in that they are both on the edge of an existential crisis and need support groups to keep them from falling.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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phio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
#23740519 - 10/15/16 05:41 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
blingbling said: If you were able to propose a benefit to a belief in nothing, I'd be all ears
1. I'm not arguing for a belief in nothing. I claim to be an atheist, not a nihilist.
2. The whole point of this thread is that at the psychological level there is no benefit, in fact, I have argued that their is a deficit of meaning. You appear to be looking for something in this thread that isn't there, namely the confirmation of the beliefs which you entered the thread with.
Given the framing, I came here hoping to find a discussion of a deeper topic. When I didn't find one, I was alright with that. However, your opening and continued remarks contradicts itself. So, I'm sitting here wondering most of all what exactly it is that you're trying to say...
I even tried to piece apart your statements to get at it. You're providing no extended commentary on the topic you proposed beyond a conflicting/contradictory opening... Do you need see this?
Then you say :
Quote:
blingbling said: 2. The whole point of this thread is that at the psychological level there is no benefit, in fact, I have argued that their is a deficit of meaning.
There is no benefit maybe because an individual choses for there not to be in their subjective frame. A deficit of meaning in a universe full of meaning reflects on the individual not the universe.
^this is my whole point.... and what's wild to me is that there are reasoned and even scientific approaches to capturing, conceptualizing and perceiving it yet people wallow .. which gets all the way back to your original commentary :
" identity politics and the increasing political polarisation. " "All the while the abyss continues to gaze into our collective soul and our only repose is to become more and more entrenched in our own groping for significance."
Right there you said it yourself.. What else do you think happens when you subscribe to no meaning or no benefit? You destroy yourself and all that is infinite within you .. All the way thus the abyss gazes at you and into the collective souls of those who take that viewpoint consuming you and your response is to become entrenched in self-perpetuating cycle of attempting to find grand infinite meaning in finite ideas.
Let go brother.. what are you holding on so tight to?
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: Rahz]
#23740522 - 10/15/16 05:43 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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The abysmal atheist shares a quality with the hopeful believer in that they are both on the edge of an existential crisis and need support groups to keep them from falling.
I absolutely agree with this. If I had lived a more tragic life than the one I was lucky enough to live I doubt I would be able to even toy with the idea of life's meaninglessness without total despair.
There is a third way that involves having no beliefs regarding the unexplained and being at the least ambivalent, not towards beliefs, but of the experience itself.
Isn't this what characterises our modern predicament, a radical skepticism regarding our experience. I fail to see how this is different from secularism which also entails a radical skepticism regarding experience. I don't think that this is really a third way.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
#23740543 - 10/15/16 05:58 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Let go brother.. what are you holding on so tight to?
Don't worry brother, I've already let go and stared long into the abyss.
A deficit of meaning in a universe full of meaning reflects on the individual not the universe.
From the secular perspective the only meaning in the universe is that which is projected from the individual onto the universe. There is no meaning inherent in the universe. This is the deficit I am referring to as "the abyss."
what's wild to me is that there are reasoned and even scientific approaches to capturing, conceptualizing and perceiving it
What exactly are you referring to. The infinite? Sure, I guess there is evidence for the infinite. But, I am unaware of any compelling evidence of a creator.
You're providing no extended commentary on the topic you proposed beyond
What exactly would you like to know?
your response is to become entrenched in self-perpetuating cycle of attempting to find grand infinite meaning in finite ideas
Where exactly have I said that these ideas were "infinite"? This is what you are falsely reading into me. I believe that my ideas will fade into oblivion, just like you, me and everyone we have ever known.
What else do you think happens when you subscribe to no meaning or no benefit? You destroy yourself and all that is infinite within you
That which is infinite is not me. To understand this is what it means to be human. And I am still here, it hasn't destroyed me.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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phio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: Rahz] 1
#23740560 - 10/15/16 06:06 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: Many ideas have truth to them, but when we're talking about metaphysical reality the truth is partly made of belief, feelings, instincts, so we should consider that defining the abyss is to misdefine it unless we speak in dualistic terms. The abyss could be a sense of mortal despair in the face of eternity, or the sense of a timeless reality who's source can be felt but not seen. Hollow, or full.
Ok.. I'm with you so far. However, before we get going further, this all has to do w/ the framing and belief systems one subscribes to which is why many exist and have for 1000s of years due to the many troubled journeys of theologians. One assuming they can start from scratch and make up for 1000s of years of thinking by millions of people confines one to an impossible journey and indeed despair is to be found in such a journey.
Quote:
Rahz said: I guess in that light it makes sense that 90 some percent of humanity chooses religious belief rather than a desperate sense of living in this existence with no purpose.
Spirituality and religion are two different things. Some of the world's greatest Scientist were devout followers of various religious beliefs. Many read and thought deeply on the words of eastern religions which helped frame ideas like Binary and quantum physics.
In essence, when people have spent 1000s of years reasoning and working through sound beliefs that stand the test of time, there is no point or benefit it absolutely abandoning it when you have no better beliefs yourself. That's destructive and a self-perpetuated abyss as its a journey you will never rise out of given one's limited time on earth. This has nothing to do with the infinite and is instead an individual's own creation.
You can't attribute this to the infinite .. It's one's own doing.
Quote:
Rahz said: There is a third way that involves having no beliefs regarding the unexplained and being at the least ambivalent, not towards beliefs, but of the experience itself.
Given this neat thing called consciousness, such a position resigns one also to a self-perpetuated abyss.
Quote:
Rahz said: Beliefs are made of words, and words can be provocative. It doesn't matter whether they are true or not. I am not suggesting a repressive stance, but that our sense of curiosity cannot stay too long with the same mind set. Gazing long and gazing too long might not be an extremely fine line, but there's no reason to have a sense of allegiance to a metaphysical reality the mind conjures up. That could apply to all realities regardless of whether they provide blankets or cause suffering.
Sure and the reason is : We live in an ever changing Universe. One must flow with it or be resigned to a cold death. You can actually gaze long into the abyss, your sensibilities will speak to you. If you chose to ignore them and gaze too long, you can indeed be consumed. But you see, that is of your own choosing. You do so freely and even do so beyond a natural 'warning' system. So, it is weird to attribute this to the abyss. The abyss is of one's own making. It doesn't just appear out of thin air. One has to purposely put effort into manifesting it in their subjective consciousness.
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Rahz said: There is a narrative with many possible branches and we are constantly putting ourselves into the narrative because that is what there is to do.
Consciousness .. the alternative is death.
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Rahz said: Whether it's pointless or not is a secondary issue, a subjective viewpoint of an objective reality we don't fully understand.
Hopefully one gets the point and does things with a point. If one takes on the subjective viewpoint that the universe is without one that's an abyss they resign themselves to and is not an inherent property of the infinite.
Quote:
Rahz said: The abysmal atheist shares a quality with the hopeful believer in that they are both on the edge of an existential crisis and need support groups to keep them from falling.
I agree and disagree. I agree that you must live in this world and receive it beyond your beliefs and accept it as it is.. I disagree in that I feel that you have way more potential when you actually believe there is something to be discovered vs. a disbelief that there is no higher purpose or plan to this all.
You have to be willing to journey to refine and develop your beliefs as you grow because the universe thus does. There is purpose and structure among what should be randomness. Thus, one should go about perceiving the universe as such.
I don't foolishly look at a sky scraper or man's creations and say : gee, that complex structure just randomly came to be and there was no intent behind its obviously functional features. I would be an absolute fool to look at far more structured creations that have obvious functions and say : gee you know what, randomly.. just randomly this all came to be .. you know .. just cause .. The universe has varying levels of conscious life but yeah us Humans were it .. Were the max of it all. All of this structure and nature is just random including us. That's an abyss.... It's of one's own creation and mind. People make the free-will'd choice to create it and grow further entrenched because the universe is not an abyss. Day in and day out your conscious experience reminds you of an infinite and far reaching universe of purpose and structure. To ignore that take a great deal of effort and energy and thus is the nature of a personal abyss.
Has jack-all as you can see with the infinite and more to do with one's rejection of it and its meaning. The infinite isn't scary. It's calming and comforting. It's your essence. It's nature.
We have free-will and can strike out at it but that is the ego and of one's own personal choosing. How one arrives at that point in their life of disbelief and rejection... I have no clue and part of the reason why they probably don't get out of it is because everything is to blame (including that which they say doesn't exist) but themselves.
Why is man divided, polarized, and confused in this modern age? because they have rejected the infinite universe, its creations, and its meanings and that's on them.
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phio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
#23740592 - 10/15/16 06:29 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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blingbling said: Don't worry brother, I've already let go and stared long into the abyss.
You know.. I have heard this often. I have yet for someone to detail what it is they saw.. I wonder why this is but I more importantly wonder what it is they saw.. Alas, details remain impossible.

Quote:
blingbling said: From the secular perspective the only meaning in the universe is that which is projected from the individual onto the universe. There is no meaning inherent in the universe. This is the deficit I am referring to as "the abyss."
 Boom, got it. That kind of mindset is indeed an abyss and a self-perpetuated one. Kind of expected when people abandon 1000s of years of theological analysis in favor of nothing.
Quote:
blingbling said: What exactly are you referring to. The infinite? Sure, I guess there is evidence for the infinite. But, I am unaware of any compelling evidence of a creator.
Do some studies on physics, quantum physics, creation theories, the nature of time, entropy, biology, etc .. Boltzman, Feynman, Godel .. etc etc. The biggest issue I find, and I'm not saying this is representative of you is that disbelief comes from not being informed namely on Science. There is stark evidence that stares you directly in the face when you study science which is why many of the renowned figures in science were religious. I don't aim to convert anyone such as you state as well.. I'm just looking at it like (dam), if only you saw what I saw and know what I know about the universe.
So, I feel sad to be quite honest to anyone who maintains such a position. I see no value in maintaining it. Technology allows us to understand more not less to a point of disbelief. The trend and buildup is towards belief.
You ask me why do I believe there is a higher form of consciousness .. Well, look at nature, why should I assume the buck stops at humans? Who or what do you assume structured the universe that is full of structure? The scientific ruling is that there is no form of randomness that could have resulted in this? Boltzman tried and ruled it a paradox. So, in believing, you're with science. I can still maintain that I am in search of what that exactly is.. but now I have fuel and a purpose as I know there is something out there... Versus sort of giving up and saying .. yeah man, there's nothing .. it's just randomness.. Science even disagrees. You get my point? The point of science is to search for it.
As for your further commentary, it seems we got off on an unnecessary fork. Topic was the 'the abyss'. I think we agree that it is something that people through their own thoughts and actions resign themselves to. I don't disagree. Feel bad for em' and wish they could get themselves out of it. It's more common now because people are abandoning the root frameworks provided by those who thought deeply over 1000s of years and they're doing it in favor of nothing and randomness. Self-manifested abyss. I see it as you do thus see it. It's a wild world I guess.
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BrendanFlock
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: phio] 1
#23740594 - 10/15/16 06:30 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think is a concept about self reflection in general..
Like if you are looking at yourself..you are staring..and that staring is both staring at..and with you at the same time..
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phio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: BrendanFlock]
#23740603 - 10/15/16 06:34 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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BrendanFlock said: I think is a concept about self reflection in general..
Like if you are looking at yourself..you are staring..and that staring is both staring at..and with you at the same time..
Gotta let go sometimes .. those foolish theologians wrote alot about it.. To bad people have chosen to abandon it..
Thankfully, it's still spoken about
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
#23740660 - 10/15/16 07:03 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Isn't this what characterises our modern predicament, a radical skepticism regarding our experience.
As a matter of practicality I think ambivalence is a good place to start. Knowing that one is ambivalent, bias in the subjectivity is seen. It is only a short step to using that information to look at things without bias. In such a manner both sides of the illusion may fall away and we are left only with the fact of our existence. We can argue about whether a skeptic has belief or a lack of belief, but that's not the point. The problem with skepticism (if it is a problem) is that it doesn't place value in the metaphysical experience. My suggestion is that metaphysical reality is important as far as we humans are concerned, but like the skeptic would say nothing can be known. If a person feels a sense of peace, they don't need to know anything for sure. Peace is not found (for me) in beliefs. It is only in the absence of belief that I can feel good when it comes to spirituality (metaphysical experience) and existentialism (dualistic thoughts regarding our experience). Why this is true for staring into the abyss might be obvious but there's a polarity there, same as a more hopeful stance. In a way the creation of belief is also the creation of skepticism, so the third way I mentioned would avoid such emotional tangles.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: phio]
#23740702 - 10/15/16 07:31 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Why is man divided, polarized, and confused in this modern age? because they have rejected the infinite universe, its creations, and its meanings and that's on them.
Boom, got it. That kind of mindset is indeed an abyss and a self-perpetuated one. Kind of expected when people abandon 1000s of years of theological analysis in favor of nothing.
I'm glad that you've finally figured out that you actually agree with me cause that was getting painful.
As for the rest of your post, I have done much study into these things and not just reading. I have done some research with actual practicing mystics and the like and I don't find it convincing. As you said, the trick is to let go. We agree about much, but sit on opposite sides of the boundary between belief and dis-belief in an ultimate redeeming force. In some ways I'm actually jealous of you, but as I said earlier not everything that one finds true is satisfying. I've stared long into the abyss, that place where God used to bestow meaning on the world, and it has gazed into me.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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laughingdog
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Registered: 03/14/04
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
#23740728 - 10/15/16 07:48 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
blingbling said: I think the above quote from Friedrich Nietzsche's Beyond Good and Evil is an excellent description of what it is like to be an atheist.
....
In my opinion the trauma of secularism is the driving force behind our modern identity politics and the increasing political polarisation. Its like everyone is scrambling to say "no! i'm real! i have an identity see!"
All the while the abyss continues to gaze into our collective soul and our only repose is to become more and more entrenched in our own groping for significance.
What'ya think?
thanks for the interesting topic:
I would guess what Nietzsche meant was that, if you leave behind social norms as the guiding force in your life - doing what is expected of you - - then you will have to confront both who you are, and potential lifetime loneliness. Not knowing who you are, means confronting fears, normals never even know exist.
So called ‘beliefe in god’ is a social norm in the USA. So being an atheist, is a small departure from the norm.
Nietzsche himself was well outside the norm in many respects, and was a loner.
As regards identity. The word makes it sound simple. Children are born with an unmyelinated brain. Which means uninsulated nerve fibers. So it takes a long time for both language and identity to fully integrate.
So identity must form to grow up and be functional. We can’t skip over ego formation to get to oneness with the universe. It’s not a problem caused by secularism.
Identity and navigating the social world are lifetime works in progress. Identity issues can cause lots of anxiety. This is the abyss we all try to avoid. Hence we work constantly and unconsciously to keep identity going strong. One way we do this is by forming opinions and defending them, by finding new causes and identifying with them etc. We usually think we do these things for the superficial reasons involved, but the secret payoff is continuing to be sure that: we are who we think we are.
We are avoiding the abyss of the unknown, of not knowing, of risking insecurity. This might be called the activity of ego. All the spiritual teachers of the meditative traditions therefore distinguish awareness from the contents of awareness. Among the contents of awareness is our compulsive striving to keep being sure that we are who we think we are, with a constant stream of inner dialogue or thought. The abyss begins to open as inner dialogue, quiets down.
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phio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
#23740737 - 10/15/16 07:54 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
blingbling said: Why is man divided, polarized, and confused in this modern age? because they have rejected the infinite universe, its creations, and its meanings and that's on them.
Boom, got it. That kind of mindset is indeed an abyss and a self-perpetuated one. Kind of expected when people abandon 1000s of years of theological analysis in favor of nothing.
I'm glad that you've finally figured out that you actually agree with me cause that was getting painful.
As for the rest of your post, I have done much study into these things and not just reading. I have done some research with actual practicing mystics and the like and I don't find it convincing. As you said, the trick is to let go. We agree about much, but sit on opposite sides of the boundary between belief and dis-belief in an ultimate redeeming force. In some ways I'm actually jealous of you, but as I said earlier not everything that one finds true is satisfying. I've stared long into the abyss, that place where God used to bestow meaning on the world, and it has gazed into me.
Ok, I think i get you now which is cool. Seems you have journeyed quite a bit and I have nothing but respect for that. I do wish that increased understanding comes to you as you journey on forward as I do for myself.
Cheers bling bling.
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phio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: laughingdog]
#23740754 - 10/15/16 08:03 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
laughingdog said:
Quote:
blingbling said: I think the above quote from Friedrich Nietzsche's Beyond Good and Evil is an excellent description of what it is like to be an atheist.
....
In my opinion the trauma of secularism is the driving force behind our modern identity politics and the increasing political polarisation. Its like everyone is scrambling to say "no! i'm real! i have an identity see!"
All the while the abyss continues to gaze into our collective soul and our only repose is to become more and more entrenched in our own groping for significance.
What'ya think?
thanks for the interesting topic:
I would guess what Nietzsche meant was that, if you leave behind social norms as the guiding force in your life - doing what is expected of you - - then you will have to confront both who you are, and potential lifetime loneliness. Not knowing who you are, means confronting fears, normals never even know exist.
So called ‘beliefe in god’ is a social norm in the USA. So being an atheist, is a small departure from the norm.
Nietzsche himself was well outside the norm in many respects, and was a loner.
As regards identity. The word makes it sound simple. Children are born with an unmyelinated brain. Which means uninsulated nerve fibers. So it takes a long time for both language and identity to fully integrate.
So identity must form to grow up and be functional. We can’t skip over ego formation to get to oneness with the universe. It’s not a problem caused by secularism.
Identity and navigating the social world are lifetime works in progress. Identity issues can cause lots of anxiety. This is the abyss we all try to avoid. Hence we work constantly and unconsciously to keep identity going strong. One way we do this is by forming opinions and defending them, by finding new causes and identifying with them etc. We usually think we do these things for the superficial reasons involved, but the secret payoff is continuing to be sure that: we are who we think we are.
We are avoiding the abyss of the unknown, of not knowing, of risking insecurity. This might be called the activity of ego. All the spiritual teachers of the meditative traditions therefore distinguish awareness from the contents of awareness. Among the contents of awareness is our compulsive striving to keep being sure that we are who we think we are, with a constant stream of inner dialogue or thought. The abyss begins to open as inner dialogue, quiets down.
Solid commentary from start to finish .. I just feel like abyss and the infinite are being used too interchangeably. Furthermore, introverts go through this inner dialogue process a lot. For many it was characteristic very early in their childhood and natural. I never felt it to be an abyss .. More like an amazing and infinite inner playground. Sure, you can get lost in it which is why you 'snap out of it' and remind yourself that the ego/identity albeit a fluid one is important.
Destroying your identity isn't all its cracked up to be. It's more important that you come to understand that its fluid and malleable and anneal it with purpose not simply to meddle with it .. Just meddling and destroying for meddling and destruction's sake is what creates an internal abyss of sorts.
But yeah, i like your commentary
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: phio]
#23740948 - 10/15/16 09:55 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
phio said:
But yeah, i like your commentary 
some of the ideas come from:
“Dependent Arising In Context: the Buddha's core lesson, in the context of his time and ours” by Linda S Blanchard
Paperback: 144 pages ISBN-10: 1481259547 ISBN-13: 978-1481259545
and reviews of it on Amazon
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: laughingdog]
#23741083 - 10/15/16 10:55 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
laughingdog said: All the spiritual teachers of the meditative traditions therefore distinguish awareness from the contents of awareness. Among the contents of awareness is our compulsive striving to keep being sure that we are who we think we are, with a constant stream of inner dialogue or thought. The abyss begins to open as inner dialogue, quiets down.
In my opinion the Buddhist or meditative tradition (which has now taken on secular forms totally different from the way it continues to be practiced in Asia) is an attempt to deny, silence or destroy the self/identity because in our modern secular epoch it is too painful to have an identity which you see as your own special perspective in the world, and yet for all that to amount to nothing in the grand scheme of things or at the cosmic level.
In this sense meditation is similar in scope to hedonism, the attempt to forget ones place in the cosmos and focus on things which bring pleasure; sex, drugs, power over others. Some atheists see meditation as an antidote to the malaise of modernity, the abyss that gazes into us. I am not that optimistic.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: phio]
#23741086 - 10/15/16 10:59 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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phio said:
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blingbling said: Why is man divided, polarized, and confused in this modern age? because they have rejected the infinite universe, its creations, and its meanings and that's on them.
Boom, got it. That kind of mindset is indeed an abyss and a self-perpetuated one. Kind of expected when people abandon 1000s of years of theological analysis in favor of nothing.
I'm glad that you've finally figured out that you actually agree with me cause that was getting painful.
As for the rest of your post, I have done much study into these things and not just reading. I have done some research with actual practicing mystics and the like and I don't find it convincing. As you said, the trick is to let go. We agree about much, but sit on opposite sides of the boundary between belief and dis-belief in an ultimate redeeming force. In some ways I'm actually jealous of you, but as I said earlier not everything that one finds true is satisfying. I've stared long into the abyss, that place where God used to bestow meaning on the world, and it has gazed into me.
Ok, I think i get you now which is cool. Seems you have journeyed quite a bit and I have nothing but respect for that. I do wish that increased understanding comes to you as you journey on forward as I do for myself.
Cheers bling bling. 
Cheers friend
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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phio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
#23741164 - 10/15/16 11:44 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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blingbling said:
Quote:
laughingdog said: All the spiritual teachers of the meditative traditions therefore distinguish awareness from the contents of awareness. Among the contents of awareness is our compulsive striving to keep being sure that we are who we think we are, with a constant stream of inner dialogue or thought. The abyss begins to open as inner dialogue, quiets down.
In my opinion the Buddhist or meditative tradition (which has now taken on secular forms totally different from the way it continues to be practiced in Asia) is an attempt to deny, silence or destroy the self/identity because in our modern secular epoch it is too painful to have an identity which you see as your own special perspective in the world, and yet for all that to amount to nothing in the grand scheme of things or at the cosmic level.
In this sense meditation is similar in scope to hedonism, the attempt to forget ones place in the cosmos and focus on things which bring pleasure; sex, drugs, power over others. Some atheists see meditation as an antidote to the malaise of modernity, the abyss that gazes into us. I am not that optimistic.
Now you're just winning me over....
Cut it out

But bling.. Hmm, see ...you'll say something like this and its like .. K, wow he gets it. Why do you chose not to complete the circle to this observation. Think on it. You know what I'm referring to.
And hmm, can you explain how Atheism doesn't lead to secularism or how you can maintain an Atheist view yet feel that secularism causes ills? How do you maintain opposition between the two? Do you maintain : this is my belief but I'm cool with all belief systems being taught?
Help me out here. You make a solid observation above. Now, i'm trying to understand how you decouple with secularism.. You seem to be a rare type of Atheist I must say ...
There's a gem in you .. i know it
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: phio]
#23741191 - 10/16/16 12:07 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well friend, you could say that I am a Christian Athiest, which probably sounds ridicules to you, but think about it like this: Not all atheisms are equivalent. Someone who comes from a hindu tradition and becomes an atheist in my opinion will be different than someone who comes from the Christian tradition. Many Hindu's are polytheistic so they believe in many Gods each of which represents a particular aspect of nature. If you stop believing in these personifications of the natural forces you are still left with a kind of spiritual residue in those natural forces themselves. I have no evidence to base this on, but I believe that atheism developed out of the hindu tradition is less psychologically distablizing than atheism developed out of the Christian tradition.
Consider the following painting from the Chirstian medieval period. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/06/24/91/062491a3c27896bf02578e9c53474efa.jpg
In those times satan was painted blue as he was furtherest away of the warmth of Gods love. When an atheist from the Christian tradition denies God there is a psychological structure left behind, that one is cold and alone like satan. Nieztche knew this, which is why he wanted to bring about a new system of morality based on ancient Greek polytheism even though he was a strict atheist. He perceived the Christian "slave morality" to be present in post Christian culture's even though they denied God. The psychological structures of religion can be maintained even when one denies religiosity.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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phio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
#23741233 - 10/16/16 12:40 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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blingbling said: Well friend, you could say that I am a Christian Athiest, which probably sounds ridicules to you,
Nah man, makes perfect sense now ... I was wondering why all the conflict. Yeah, blend as many things as you feel w.r.t to what describes your views and what resonance with you. I have nothing but respect for that. A singular word for a belief system is hard to get behind anyway. I always disliked them.
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blingbling said: but think about it like this: Not all atheisms are equivalent. Someone who comes from a hindu tradition and becomes an atheist in my opinion will be different than someone who comes from the Christian tradition. Many Hindu's are polytheistic so they believe in many Gods each of which represents a particular aspect of nature. If you stop believing in these personifications of the natural forces you are still left with a kind of spiritual residue in those natural forces themselves.
Makes perfect sense.
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blingbling said: I have no evidence to base this on, but I believe that atheism developed out of the hindu tradition is less psychologically distablizing than atheism developed out of the Christian tradition.
Makes logical sense.
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blingbling said: Consider the following painting from the Chirstian medieval period. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/06/24/91/062491a3c27896bf02578e9c53474efa.jpg
In those times satan was painted blue as he was furtherest away of the warmth of Gods love. When an atheist from the Christian tradition denies God there is a psychological structure left behind, that one is cold and alone like satan.
Indeed, well this is the major problem with a lot of 'religion'.. It taints and colors a more pure spirituality with all of these further off man-made extensions... Some are even in contradiction with the spiritual texts ..
I could imagine, the further those hooks sunk the more revolted one becomes once they exit. Thus the spectrum of Atheist .. I really wish a lot of religions weren't practiced in the way they are.... Leaves a lot of followers decimated
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blingbling said: Nieztche knew this, which is why he wanted to bring about a new system of morality based on ancient Greek polytheism even though he was a strict atheist. He perceived the Christian "slave morality" to be present in post Christian culture's even though they denied God. The psychological structures of religion can be maintained even when one denies religiosity.
See, now I have a better picture of what's behind your beliefs. Thank you for sharing that with me. One of the worst things about how religion is practiced is in such a way that judgement and morality are hung over a person's head to the point that it conveys that only if one attempts to be as perfect as a little peach will they make it into heaven. Many people get completely single-minded or revolted by such a hollow path.
The other amazing portions that inspire a rich life, grace, understanding,love, and forgiveness are left by the way-side. Those are the most important parts !!!! Morality is there to teach you the power of being good to yourself in how it manifests in greatness for you, others, and your environment.. It's not to be used to enslave you.
So yeah, I hear you brother and now I understand you more. Journey on and journey with love, peace, and understanding.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: phio]
#23741447 - 10/16/16 04:17 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Indeed, well this is the major problem with a lot of 'religion'.. It taints and colors a more pure spirituality with all of these further off man-made extensions... Some are even in contradiction with the spiritual texts ..
I could imagine, the further those hooks sunk the more revolted one becomes once they exit. Thus the spectrum of Atheist .. I really wish a lot of religions weren't practiced in the way they are.... Leaves a lot of followers decimated
Actually I think the discrption of satan as blue, cold and alone is more true to the experience of secularism than much of the banal and triumphant representations of atheism which you find among the most famous atheists, the carl sagans and richard dawkins of the world.
I think this is something that Christianity has actually gotten right. Satan, like the atheist, is the most far from God's redemptive power and this is painful. This is where I get the "Christian" aspect of my atheism from. I actually agree with quite a lot of what Christians have to say about what it means to be an atheist and to live in a secular society.
If you like this line of reasoning check out this clip from the philosopher Zizek. He is ripping off the theologian Chesterton, but at least he does a good job of it.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
#23741599 - 10/16/16 07:29 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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blingbling said: ... In my opinion the Buddhist or meditative tradition ... is an attempt to deny, silence or destroy the self/identity ...
buddhist meditation is of 2 forms that converge: relaxation and then insight.
neither has anything to do with ego, which is a side issue, like money. an artificial intermediate thing that is not the real thing.
One learns to be more still and more quiet by practicing, then one begins to see between the frames of expectation, which is where the artificiality comes in. Nothing is destroyed, but the meditator gets calmer and sees more between the frames which makes him or her more spontaneous and creative, tuned in to more than the usual social games and rat race consumption initiatives.
I think you discount this because of ignorance or not making progress in your meditation, try to be more patient and take in a bigger view.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: phio] 1
#23742064 - 10/16/16 10:48 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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One assuming they can start from scratch and make up for 1000s of years of thinking by millions of people confines one to an impossible journey and indeed despair is to be found in such a journey.
I don't believe in free will but if I did I would say, good job repressing your free will! 
Quote:
In essence, when people have spent 1000s of years reasoning and working through sound beliefs that stand the test of time, there is no point or benefit it absolutely abandoning it when you have no better beliefs yourself. That's destructive and a self-perpetuated abyss as its a journey you will never rise out of given one's limited time on earth. This has nothing to do with the infinite and is instead an individual's own creation.
It would be wrong to assume long standing beliefs are correct or that people's beliefs in general are correct. Destruction is a necessary aspect of life and doesn't necessarily lead to an abyss. I already explained there is a spectrum of perception in that regard.
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Given this neat thing called consciousness, such a position resigns one also to a self-perpetuated abyss.
According to you. Statements without substantiation don't make good arguments.
As for the rest, your post exhibits the type of belief systems that leads to confusion while desperately trying to avoid it.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
#23742221 - 10/16/16 11:34 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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what's wrong with the abyss anyway? more accommodation to what is not categorized should be happening so that we are better attuned to what is between the frames in the movie of life.
the abyss is a very large gap of that same sort
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phio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: Rahz]
#23742276 - 10/16/16 11:53 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Rahz said: I don't believe in free will but if I did I would say, good job repressing your free will!
Broad misunderstanding of what was said.. You could spend your waking life sitting outside observing apples fall from a tree with your free will. Due to a neat thing called gravity, it's likely you'll keep observing the same thing over and over. I don't feel that indicating and understanding this truth is repression. You wanna start from 'ground zero' ignoring all of man's accumulated time tested knowledge with no framework or heading? You're more than happy to... However, if you find yourself lost and in the grips of an abyss, it doesn't take a genius to figure out why. Now, if you feel something is flawed or incorrect and you go on to deconstruct it to figure out why or figure out a better answer, this is far different as you are with : purpose.
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Rahz said: It would be wrong to assume long standing beliefs are correct or that people's beliefs in general are correct. Destruction is a necessary aspect of life and doesn't necessarily lead to an abyss. I already explained there is a spectrum of perception in that regard.
It would be quite logical to assume that something that has lasted the test of time has truth present in it. Given the laws of this universe and a trend towards increasing entropy, nothing holds together for long that doesn't have truth structured in it. Loosely structured constructs are weathered much faster. Go and take a look at nature.
Destruction : the action or process of causing so much damage to something that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired. The definition is quite clear.
Deconstruction is quite different. I do agree with there being a spectrum of perception. Some lead to an abyss. Some don't.
At the end of the day, it is of a person's construction. Thus, I actually don't have much to say about it. It's on the person who creates their perception to sort it out necessarily.
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Rahz said: According to you. Statements without substantiation don't make good arguments.
The statement holds .. Then again, you don't believe in free-will nor are you necessarily familiar with the scientific, logical, or philosophical works which back it.
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Rahz said: As for the rest, your post exhibits the type of belief systems that leads to confusion while desperately trying to avoid it.
I'm not confused. So , I find that quite laughable. To each their own. At the end of the day, I really don't have much to say about someone else's subjective experience. If you're stuck in an abyss or if society is and has no clue why, I provided a starting point worth consideration. That is all.
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phio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: redgreenvines]
#23742287 - 10/16/16 11:54 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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redgreenvines said: what's wrong with the abyss anyway? more accommodation to what is not categorized should be happening so that we are better attuned to what is between the frames in the movie of life.
the abyss is a very large gap of that same sort
As I was saying earlier, I think the terms and wording is what's causing the confusion. That abyss.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: phio]
#23742571 - 10/16/16 01:31 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't see where the misunderstanding is on my part. However I never suggested starting from ground zero (although in principal it's not a bad idea), just that some critical thinking should be applied. If a belief is accepted as valid it should be done so through critical thinking and even then it should be seen that the desired effect is in it's utility, not it's ultimate veracity. To that point, it's not truth we're talking about but working theories. If the theories work, that's great. That's the point of having them. Let's just not call it truth if we're being honest. Eggs cause high cholesterol. Appeal to common belief is a logical fallacy.
You indicate my post leads to the abysmal and yet the whole point of my post was to suggest that it's simply a self reinforcing belief that's only true because we believe it is true. I have no idea how you are coming to your conclusions. The gist of what I'm saying was put well by laughingdog, and I couldn't agree more with this quote:
Quote:
We are avoiding the abyss of the unknown, of not knowing, of risking insecurity. This might be called the activity of ego. All the spiritual teachers of the meditative traditions therefore distinguish awareness from the contents of awareness. Among the contents of awareness is our compulsive striving to keep being sure that we are who we think we are, with a constant stream of inner dialogue or thought. The abyss begins to open as inner dialogue, quiets down.
Again, the "abyss" is a reflection of our internal state and is not inherently a positive or negative thing.
Anyway, I have participated in at least several dozen debates over the years on free will. Your assumptions regarding my understanding aren't conducive to meaningful correspondence, but your belief in free will does prove my point. At best it's a working theory. It doesn't have to be true to work. The thought itself may (or may not) have more influence over our perceptions and actions than the truth itself whatever it may be. Not only is free will something that has survived in popularity without substantiation, the idea that will is somehow "free" is only valid in a legal sense. I have never read a good argument that suggests otherwise despite having an interest over many years. The concept itself outside the legal sense is vague and ultimately does nothing but provide the believer with a tentative sense of self control. If it works for you, that's fine but that doesn't mean it's true.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
Edited by Rahz (10/16/16 02:04 PM)
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phio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: Rahz]
#23742849 - 10/16/16 03:00 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Rahz said: I don't see where the misunderstanding is on my part. However I never suggested starting from ground zero (although in principal it's not a bad idea), just that some critical thinking should be applied.
As I stated, that's the difference between :
Destruction : the action or process of causing so much damage to something that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired.
Deconstruction: the analytic examination of something (as a theory) often in order to reveal its inadequacy
Quote:
Rahz said: If a belief is accepted as valid it should be done so through critical thinking and even then it should be seen that the desired effect is in it's utility, not it's ultimate veracity. To that point, it's not truth we're talking about but working theories. If the theories work, that's great. That's the point of having them. Let's just not call it truth if we're being honest. Eggs cause high cholesterol. Appeal to common belief is a logical fallacy.
You indicate my post leads to the abysmal and yet the whole point of my post was to suggest that it's simply a self reinforcing belief that's only true because we believe it is true. I have no idea how you are coming to your conclusions. The gist of what I'm saying was put well by laughingdog, and I couldn't agree more with this quote:
Again, the "abyss" is a reflection of our internal state and is not inherently a positive or negative thing.
Anyway, I have participated in at least several dozen debates over the years on free will. Your assumptions regarding my understanding aren't conducive to meaningful correspondence, but your belief in free will does prove my point. At best it's a working theory. It doesn't have to be true to work. The thought itself may (or may not) have more influence over our perceptions and actions than the truth itself whatever it may be. Not only is free will something that has survived in popularity without substantiation, the idea that will is somehow "free" is only valid in a legal sense. I have never read a good argument that suggests otherwise despite having an interest over many years. The concept itself outside the legal sense is vague and ultimately does nothing but provide the believer with a tentative sense of self control. If it works for you, that's fine but that doesn't mean it's true. 
Never said an abyss was a negative thing. Just highlighted how you can get there. Not believing in free-will is seemingly an abyss.
On free-will, I've had enough silly debates with people on the topic as well. I guess.. enjoy your non free-will'd choice to believe you don't have free-will. I'm not going to fight you on it as I indeed understand that its a belief you're chosing to subscribe to. You can change it at any moment. However, that choice is yours and yours alone.
I have got other constructive things to do w/ my free-will and limited time.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: phio]
#23742887 - 10/16/16 03:13 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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As I stated, that's the difference between :
Destruction : the action or process of causing so much damage to something that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired.
Deconstruction: the analytic examination of something (as a theory) often in order to reveal its inadequacy
Sometimes it's useful to destroy our ideas. Besides, you're just drawing a semantic argument that doesn't change the validity of what I said or the spirit in which it was said. If that's all you got I'm not sure why we aren't on the same page.
Quote:
On free-will, I've had enough silly debates with people on the topic as well. I guess.. enjoy your non free-will'd choice to believe you don't have free-will. I'm not going to fight you on it as I indeed understand that its a belief you're chosing to subscribe to. You can change it at any moment. However, that choice is yours and yours alone.
I have got other constructive things to do w/ my free-will and limited time.
Bowing out when things get difficult. I don't want to rehash that conversation either, but I'm always curious. I suspect you don't want to have that conversation because you cannot prove it, otherwise it would be a piece of cake right? I don't believe in free will because it doesn't connote anything sensical that will doesn't already. I will enjoy my willed choice to not believe in something that doesn't make sense.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
Edited by Rahz (10/16/16 03:27 PM)
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phio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: Rahz]
#23743054 - 10/16/16 04:17 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Rahz said: Sometimes it's useful to destroy our ideas. Besides, you're just drawing a semantic argument that doesn't change the validity of what I said or the spirit in which it was said. If that's all you got I'm not sure why we aren't on the same page.
Yeah, do as you please... Make your choices and face the consequences. Not much is being said. So, were likely on the same page.
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Rahz said: Bowing out when things get difficult. I don't want to rehash that conversation either, but I'm always curious. I suspect you don't want to have that conversation because you cannot prove it, otherwise it would be a piece of cake right? I don't believe in free will because it doesn't connote anything sensical that will doesn't already. I will enjoy my willed choice to not believe in something that doesn't make sense. 
Not bowing out.. Just aware that people are free to chose and do so per their own will. Free-will : Free will is the ability to choose between different possible courses of action.
Piece of cake. You've demonstrated your choice between different possible courses of action. The reason its not worth debating and not difficult is because its self-evident. If someone choses not to be aware of that or debate it they're debating themselves. An abyss. So, if you want to make that kind of bed for yourself, you're more than willing to sleep in it. Forgive me for not jumping in there w/ you because i know better.
When I delve into issues of free-will i do so in a deconstructive manner so as to understand it better. I don't destructively sit there and deny the self-evident. That's a non-starter. When you use words, look up there definition. Free-will is quite clearly defined and easy enough to understand. Don't attempt to be cute with words/meaning. I'm not here to conduct philosophical circle jerking.
Edited by phio (10/16/16 04:23 PM)
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: phio]
#23743124 - 10/16/16 04:39 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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No it's not self evident. We can only ever make one choice in an instance of time. If we could go back in time and make a different choice that might prove free will, though there would still be some question as to the nature of the divergence. As it stands all we are proving is that we make a choice, which is an act of will. Will is the faculty of expressing deliberate action. Free will is the power of acting without the constraint of fate. Will entails the self evident while free will entails some mysterious unproven ability that allows us to act without determination.
To the point, in the absence of deterministic thought a choice should be fairly arbitrary. There is a quantum effect that may interject a random quality into our choices but the ability to make a random decision isn't exactly what proponents of free will have in mind. That such a quantum effect might be in play suggests fate is not something that is set in stone, yet deterministic qualities seem to be the source of our decision making.
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If someone choses not to be aware of that or debate it they're debating themselves. An abyss. So, if you want to make that kind of bed for yourself, you're more than willing to sleep in it. Forgive me for not jumping in there w/ you because i know better.
That is simply your perception. Again, if such a belief works for you that's fine but it doesn't prove anything, nor does my lack of belief in it indicate whether or not I'm in an abyss or debating myself. These type of unsubstantiated claims don't help your argument.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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phio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: Rahz]
#23743302 - 10/16/16 05:41 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Rahz said: No it's not self evident. We can only ever make one choice in an instance of time. If we could go back in time and make a different choice that might prove free will, though there would still be some question as to the nature of the divergence.
So now free-will constitutes an infinite degree of freedom to be able to travel back in time? You want to be God? Better yet more than God ... Only then does free-will exist to you.
Man I wasn't expecting that...
So, clearly you have free-will and you know it... You just desire more of it, power, increased degrees of freedom, and capability beyond even the rule of law that governs the Universe.
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Rahz said: As it stands all we are proving is that we make a choice, which is an act of will. Will is the faculty of expressing deliberate action. Free will is the power of acting without the constraint of fate. Will entails the self evident while free will entails some mysterious unproven ability that allows us to act without determination.
It doesn't. And there is no scientific backing supporting fate thus there is no constraint imposed by it. Cause/effect relationships aren't fate. Gravity isn't fate. It's a force and is explained by science and physics.
Free will maintains the power of acting which you yourself just declared and boldly declared you want more of including time travel. So now free-will is subject to someone's sci-fi fantasy of being able to go back in time? Clearly it isn't. Free-will speaks not of quantity. The minimal demonstration of free-will is 1 degree of freedom. Not Rahz's infinite and contradictory degrees.
2/2 so far and it is quite clear that you know you have will/free-will you just want more POWER.
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Rahz said: To the point, in the absence of deterministic thought a choice should be fairly arbitrary. There is a quantum effect that may interject a random quality into our choices but the ability to make a random decision isn't exactly what proponents of free will have in mind. That such a quantum effect might be in play suggests fate is not something that is set in stone, yet deterministic qualities seem to be the source of our decision making.
Yeah, quite the puzzle huh? Kind of a non-starter when you don't believe you have free-will in the first place. I'm not here to give you answers on this matter. I wanted to wet your tongue to see what would come off of it. I was not disappointed in your open declaration that you want more free-will and power to do as you please w/o consequence. You know quite well that you have free-will. As for the nature of free-will and its mechanisms, how about you try some deconstruction and figure out for yourself. Maybe therein lies the means to obtain more power.
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Rahz said: That is simply your perception. Again, if such a belief works for you that's fine but it doesn't prove anything, nor does my lack of belief in it indicate whether or not I'm in an abyss or debating myself. These type of unsubstantiated claims don't help your argument.
The burden is on you. Interestingly, its when you don't believe you have free-will that you become most limited. Funny how that works : A self-manifested abyss.
So, you've made yourself clear ... It's funny how that happens without you even being aware of it. This is where we part ways.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: phio]
#23743468 - 10/16/16 06:29 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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So now free-will constitutes an infinite degree of freedom to be able to travel back in time? You want to be God? Better yet more than God ... Only then does free-will exist to you.
If we're to make a distinction between will and free will what do you suggest? Will does not in and of itself represent a diversion from causality. That's the whole of the will/free will debate! Without that distinction there would be no free will debate. And yes, cause/effect do determine (fate) what happens. If you believe otherwise it's on you to explain it, which you haven't done.
The rest of what you bothered to type is redundant and/or more unsubstantiated claims. I suspect you are talking about yourself.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
Edited by Rahz (10/16/16 08:19 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: Rahz]
#23744622 - 10/17/16 06:38 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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this resolving of free will is abysmal (is that the word I'm looking for)
Any large gap is an abyss
The definition of "free", and the determination of "will" are each an abyss.
Once you define freedom it is limited no longer free (it needs abyss in it's totality of meaning), and the idea of what will might be keeps squirming between issues of philosophy, psychology, neurology, physics, and law - and each of those are subject to argument and arcane experimental results that few might understand - hence gap - abyss.
but we have to look into these abbyss'es if we are to move in the directions they provide.
Kind of like a star trek mission.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: redgreenvines]
#23745252 - 10/17/16 11:12 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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this resolving of free will is abysmal
I guess it depends on how much importance one places on finding an answer. Philosophical inquiry can be painful at times when the self is the subject, but I wouldn't trade my time here for anything.
My only contention with the OP was the characterization of the cheerful atheist as lame. It's difficult to say what goes on in the mind of Tyson or Dawkins, but the perception that it must be a cover for existential pain is just a guess and perhaps a reflection of one's outlook. I hope that individuals find a way to resolve their madness, even if there are no answers to be found that satisfy the logical mind.
It was Nietzsche who also said "“That which does not kill us, makes us stronger.”
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: Rahz]
#23745321 - 10/17/16 11:39 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I've liked your distinction between 'will' and 'free' will, Rahz. I too am of the opinion that we execute a will, but do not feel it to be meaningfully free. This is a subtle and philosophically important distinction.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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phio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: redgreenvines]
#23745380 - 10/17/16 11:56 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: this resolving of free will is abysmal (is that the word I'm looking for)
Any large gap is an abyss
The definition of "free", and the determination of "will" are each an abyss.
Once you define freedom it is limited no longer free (it needs abyss in it's totality of meaning), and the idea of what will might be keeps squirming between issues of philosophy, psychology, neurology, physics, and law - and each of those are subject to argument and arcane experimental results that few might understand - hence gap - abyss.
but we have to look into these abbyss'es if we are to move in the directions they provide.
Kind of like a star trek mission.

Very well said which is why I have long since moved on from arguing about the framing of this phenomenon. It has been framed many times over. Present day progress and discussions center moreso on the mechanics and details not whether or not something no one understands exists or not. Take a look and see what its nature is instead....
Philosophical inquiry helps you frame your approach. Once you have a frame or frames, roll up your sleeves and dig in. I wear many hats on my journey and carry many frames but I always remember that its a journey and try not to stagnate on frames.
@redgreenvines : You also made a very profound statement in the text above but i'll leave it at that...
Edited by phio (10/17/16 12:04 PM)
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nothing exists
master of fire

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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: phio]
#23745956 - 10/17/16 03:04 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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an abyss is a misunderstanding of infinite unity. a dis connection.
a fundamental err in perception that divides the i from all else.
this path of reason is very difficult to follow, none bid you follow.
infinity has an end, you just cant reach it.
-------------------- i like you...
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phio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: nothing exists]
#23747372 - 10/17/16 10:03 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
nothing exists said: an abyss is a misunderstanding of infinite unity. a dis connection.
a fundamental err in perception that divides the i from all else.
this path of reason is very difficult to follow, none bid you follow.
infinity has an end, you just cant reach it.
One man's abyss is seemingly another's infinity.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: nothing exists]
#23747864 - 10/18/16 03:31 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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nothing exists said: infinity has an end, you just cant reach it.
no and parallel lines never cross you get it?
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nothing exists
master of fire

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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: redgreenvines]
#23748001 - 10/18/16 06:18 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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infinity is real, lines are imaginary
get it?
Nothing is the end of infinity
-------------------- i like you...
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: nothing exists]
#23748005 - 10/18/16 06:19 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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no
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bigdoodie
it does not matter


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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
#23748017 - 10/18/16 06:30 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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God is the supreme reality, when everything comes to life and the 6ft alien looking at you in the mirror becomes the scariest thing youve ever seen. Life without perception.
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nothing exists
master of fire

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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: redgreenvines]
#23748039 - 10/18/16 06:44 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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look into a mandelbrot series, there is the black part, that is Nothing, all the patterns emmanating from there are infinite, they only 'terminate' at other black spots, also Nothing
Nothing is what the universal spark acts upon to create reality.
in the real, as in the mandelbrot, the black areas become infinite variation, swirling together to form matter and bodies, like quarks and atoms.
everything is only Nothing in infinite variety
there can be no [nothing]
-------------------- i like you...
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: nothing exists]
#23748055 - 10/18/16 06:53 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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that does not equate nothing with infinity, many primitive and ancient concepts don't fit the world as it is. calling infinity nothing is mentally brutish referring to the end of infinity is mentally brutish
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: Rahz]
#23750345 - 10/18/16 09:17 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
Quote:
this resolving of free will is abysmal
I guess it depends on how much importance one places on finding an answer. Philosophical inquiry can be painful at times when the self is the subject, but I wouldn't trade my time here for anything.
My only contention with the OP was the characterization of the cheerful atheist as lame. It's difficult to say what goes on in the mind of Tyson or Dawkins, but the perception that it must be a cover for existential pain is just a guess and perhaps a reflection of one's outlook. I hope that individuals find a way to resolve their madness, even if there are no answers to be found that satisfy the logical mind.
It was Nietzsche who also said "“That which does not kill us, makes us stronger.”
Its not so much that I think they (dawkins, tyson, sagan etc.) are covering something up in their own lives, its more that I think their popularity is a cover for existential dread in the wider atheist community. As i've said, they don't take into account the tragic nature of humanities relation to the universe in a secular society, and they fail to see what was lost.
Having said that I like many others feel both pain and a kind of exhilaration at being a piece of dust flouting in an infinite abyss of time and space. Its kinda like being told the world is going to end. You morn the loss of what could have been, but there is still a kind of excitement.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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Hobozen


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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: redgreenvines]
#23750353 - 10/18/16 09:20 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Both phio and Rhaz made great points. This has been one if not the best (and most entertaining) arguments on free will during my time here.
To freer will !
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: redgreenvines]
#23750364 - 10/18/16 09:24 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
blingbling said: ... In my opinion the Buddhist or meditative tradition ... is an attempt to deny, silence or destroy the self/identity ...
buddhist meditation is of 2 forms that converge: relaxation and then insight.
neither has anything to do with ego, which is a side issue, like money. an artificial intermediate thing that is not the real thing.
One learns to be more still and more quiet by practicing, then one begins to see between the frames of expectation, which is where the artificiality comes in. Nothing is destroyed, but the meditator gets calmer and sees more between the frames which makes him or her more spontaneous and creative, tuned in to more than the usual social games and rat race consumption initiatives.
I think you discount this because of ignorance or not making progress in your meditation, try to be more patient and take in a bigger view.
There are many types of meditation as you know, but the most spiritually enlightening experiences of meditation tend to involve the deconstruction of the self, seeing its illusory nature etc. This, I think, can be used as a cover for existential dread because if there is no self then nothing dies when the heart ceases to beat, which is reassuring. Since the death of god these kind of "reassurances" are becoming more popular. In this way meditation is similar to hedonism, the attempt to forget the self through pleasure. Meditation can also lead one to nirvana, which is essentially buddhist heaven.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: redgreenvines]
#23750382 - 10/18/16 09:28 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: what's wrong with the abyss anyway? more accommodation to what is not categorized should be happening so that we are better attuned to what is between the frames in the movie of life.
the abyss is a very large gap of that same sort
The abyss is the void left by the death of God. It is an inherent lack of meaning which characterises modernity. It is a wellspring of anxiety, that is what's wrong with it.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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Hobozen


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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
#23750410 - 10/18/16 09:38 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
blingbling said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: what's wrong with the abyss anyway? more accommodation to what is not categorized should be happening so that we are better attuned to what is between the frames in the movie of life.
the abyss is a very large gap of that same sort
The abyss is the void left by the death of God. It is an inherent lack of meaning which characterises modernity. It is a wellspring of anxiety, that is what's wrong with it.
This can also be a powerful learning experience. Imo the abyss contains both wrong and right, because one is likely to experience extremes of both after surviving a deep encounter with it.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
#23750950 - 10/19/16 01:18 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Its not so much that I think they (dawkins, tyson, sagan etc.) are covering something up in their own lives, its more that I think their popularity is a cover for existential dread in the wider atheist community. As i've said, they don't take into account the tragic nature of humanities relation to the universe in a secular society, and they fail to see what was lost.
Thanks for clarifying. I think I can see your point, that such visions may provoke people into give up their faith without a safety net. Reminds me of an article I read about Transcendentalism resulting more often in a depressed disillusionment rather than Nirvana. Perhaps humans aren't designed for such change, but it's what has happened. Maybe being naked you wish for your clothes back. But if they were offered, would you take them?
Quote:
I like many others feel both pain and a kind of exhilaration at being a piece of dust flouting in an infinite abyss of time and space. Its kinda like being told the world is going to end. You morn the loss of what could have been, but there is still a kind of excitement.
Curious qualities for a piece of dust.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: Rahz]
#23751060 - 10/19/16 03:14 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Maybe being naked you wish for your clothes back. But if they were offered, would you take them?
This is the point of the title of the thread.
IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU
Once the abyss has gazed into you, for better or worse you are forever changed.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling] 1
#23751248 - 10/19/16 06:55 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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that means you change yourself as you confront and accept the undefined. because the abyss is not a person, and it does not gaze.
atheists should not use poetry that makes them seem to be theists. it's a bad example for the others.
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nothing exists
master of fire

Registered: 12/15/10
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: redgreenvines]
#23751305 - 10/19/16 07:44 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: that does not equate nothing with infinity, many primitive and ancient concepts don't fit the world as it is. calling infinity nothing is mentally brutish referring to the end of infinity is mentally brutish
wow, you get lost easily. slow down and read the words. i choose them very carefully.
infinity is a description of universal process, not an object.
the universe is infinite interaction of Spark and Nothing.
Nothing is the fabric of reality, the everyday illusion of matter, the "space" an atom occupies.
Spark animates Nothing, causing it to appear "alive" to us. Spark comes from "outside" the universe. it was a momentary event there that here becomes everything forever without beginning or end.
the "end of infinity" is where Spark meets Nothing and becomes matter.
-------------------- i like you...
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redgreenvines
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: nothing exists]
#23751374 - 10/19/16 08:37 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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spark and nothing are what? is that where investigation ends? is that an alternative quantum science?
nothing and infinity are not one thing, least of all mathematically.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#23753461 - 10/19/16 10:12 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: that means you change yourself as you confront and accept the undefined. because the abyss is not a person, and it does not gaze.
atheists should not use poetry that makes them seem to be theists. it's a bad example for the others.
All language is metaphorical. There is nothing about the word "chair" that defines it as a piece of wood with four legs that people sit on. Your argument is ridiculous. You basically just told me to stop speaking, which is the point of a forum.
And, I don't mind if people think I'm a theist even though I have openly identified as an atheist. There is more atheism in the bible than in these banal secular meditations specifically designed to shelter people from reality.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
#23753605 - 10/19/16 11:14 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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what if the chair is looking back at you
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: redgreenvines]
#23753956 - 10/20/16 03:46 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Then you've probably done enough shrooms for the night and its time to chill
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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Penelope_Tree
Shamanic Panic



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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling] 1
#23756283 - 10/20/16 09:47 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: what if the chair is looking back at you
Then you are Sartre. 
To bring it full circle, I think we have moved from the post-modern age into an ideological age, or maybe an "identifying age" is a better way to say it. There is so much connective potential between modern humans and so many technological advances that have made it possible for us to do things that once seemed impossible. But there is not an ancient narrative to guide us thru these times. Many are struggling in the sea of modern illusion, holding fast to certain ancient narratives which only serve to further alienate them from the present. God is not Dead. The conceptualization of God that was popularized/formalized/secularized and spread for thousands of years is, quite possibly, dead, or maybe just not serving us in the way it once was. The Ground of Being does not cease to exist. It's just that we need a new narrative which serves us all.
You said it yourself, "the trauma of secularism is the driving force behind our modern identity politics and the increasing political polarisation." I would agree.
--------------------
full blown human
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: Penelope_Tree]
#23756300 - 10/20/16 09:53 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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we need a new narrative which serves us all
Sounds pretty facist to me. Think about it, Hitler would totally agree with this.
Honestly I just don't see a way out.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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Penelope_Tree
Shamanic Panic



Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 8,535
Loc: magic sugarcastle
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
#23756353 - 10/20/16 10:14 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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blingbling said: we need a new narrative which serves us all
Sounds pretty facist to me. Think about it, Hitler would totally agree with this.
Honestly I just don't see a way out.
That's interesting...
Except that fascism is a far-right ideology that militarized entire societies, and, if you read what I wrote, that's not what I was advocating at all.
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full blown human
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Hobozen


Registered: 11/03/11
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
#23756489 - 10/20/16 11:09 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: Penelope_Tree]
#23756874 - 10/21/16 03:16 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Penelope_Tree said:
Quote:
blingbling said: we need a new narrative which serves us all
Sounds pretty facist to me. Think about it, Hitler would totally agree with this.
Honestly I just don't see a way out.
That's interesting...
Except that fascism is a far-right ideology that militarized entire societies, and, if you read what I wrote, that's not what I was advocating at all.
Yeah I wasn't trying to pin that on you. I was just trying to point out how dangerous this stuff is. I think it might be better to just come to terms with our alienation from society, the universe, all things that we attempt to make extensions of ourselves. It's a lonely way to look at things, but I think it's the only way to stay true to oneself.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
#23757019 - 10/21/16 05:22 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Penelope_Tree said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: what if the chair is looking back at you
Then you are Sartre. 
To bring it full circle, I think we have moved from the post-modern age into an ideological age, or maybe an "identifying age" is a better way to say it. There is so much connective potential between modern humans and so many technological advances that have made it possible for us to do things that once seemed impossible. But there is not an ancient narrative to guide us thru these times. Many are struggling in the sea of modern illusion, holding fast to certain ancient narratives which only serve to further alienate them from the present. God is not Dead. The conceptualization of God that was popularized/formalized/secularized and spread for thousands of years is, quite possibly, dead, or maybe just not serving us in the way it once was. The Ground of Being does not cease to exist. It's just that we need a new narrative which serves us all.
You said it yourself, "the trauma of secularism is the driving force behind our modern identity politics and the increasing political polarisation." I would agree.
I always feel a little crazy writing so much on web forums, especially since my interest is in a kind of teutonic traditionalism of philosophy... but I think I have a response.
Maybe we need to just look to what we aim at?
This could be practical, and could come before particular identifications. There is a passage I have always found interesting in Martin Heidegger's letter on Humanism:
"We are still far from pondering the essence of action decisively enough. We view action only as causing an effect. The actuality of the effect is valued according to its utility. But the essence of action is accomplishment. To accomplish means to unfold something into the fullness of its essence, to lead-it forth into this fullness -producere.
Therefore only what already is can really be accomplished. But what "is" above all is being. Thinking accomplishes the relation of being to the essence of the human being - It does not make or cause the relation. Thinking brings this relation to being solely as something handed over to thought itself from being(...) "
Martin Heidegger; Letter on Humanism.
Martin Heidegger is one philosopher anyone would be right to call obscure, but this doesn't mean he is necessarily wrong about everything. And he may have been politically naive, and may have made mistakes, and may just kind of been a bad person, but what he says isn't necessarily all wrong for that. (Just saying before I commit).
I'd say we need at least a sensibility for human history today, to be aware of our generation, and its roots and what it actually is. We should be able to view our horizon.
A sensibility doesn't mean we need to identify with something, poetically or otherwise. It is a general way of "being", existence, which we live by, I'd say. To say something at a moment of time, in history, among others, to stand for something, not knowing if it will be understood, might be what Heidegger means by unfolding, in one sense, from a point of existence. Well I am having a difficult time putting this...
Actually, this letter was an open letter of Heidegger's on Sartre's Existentialism is a Humanism. (also, as additional point of interest: this was also Heidegger's own attempt just after the second world war, to address his political identifications, more or less sincerely.)
As I read him, Heidegger seems to disputes Sartre's sense of individuality as something based principally in subjectivism, which is leveling the departure of "existentiality" to a matter of perception, (He calls Sartre's statement "existence precedes essence" a metaphysics, in a related way). I think his point basically, is that existence might be a step back, but in a generality, in a way of being in the world, maybe in "perspective". This is a different kind of distance from particular truth, than subjectivism potentially. The existential turn may be called subjective, for standing for a difference in perspective, but what could be said is existence is not necessarily primarily grounded in that principle of ideal representations from the beginning.
A good way to put it pretty simply, (and in terms Sartre would agree with, if not in details) is that a common or general experience is possibly found in individuality. It is possible to speak to this, although we are skeptical today, maybe most of all of the likes of someone like Heidegger, who denied subjectivism as the basis of departure. Heidegger is not alone in this though. He is actually paying a tribute. You can definitely see a resemblance in his statement and this one, of Aristotle's:
"Every art and every inquiry, and similarly every action and pursuit, is thought to aim at some good; and for this reason the good has rightly been declared to be that at which all things aim. But a certain difference is found among ends; some are activities, others are products apart from the activities that produce them."
Aristotle; Nicomachean Ethics.
If I seek something, whether in thought or act, it is good to me. Any thing I am basically conscious of, tends to present itself in ends, which according to Aristotle, it is right in some sense to call good. If anyone asked, in terms of general arguments, it may be difficult to justify this good beyond myself, and my interests, and that may be an issue that is brought up today and typically leveled to. But then, it is also spontaneous. It is possible even to somewhat recognize that in Aristotle's argument it is above all difficult to step out of a general human way of being; of rationale, or thought process; of end seeking, of desire, in things good to us individually or collectively. They are a stream. So any contradiction to this proposal in general, in a common basis, that we "tend to seek some good", is also just as difficult, if not more difficult to level. Aristotle's argument tends to stand in a sort of different place modern people are not accustomed to, nonetheless though, as subsequently it becomes what we are automatically skeptical as agenda, or ideology.
For Plato as well as Aristotle though, first principles of rationale, would be not necessarily always be in seeking and willing truth, but the good. Also, the good, if practicable in this sense, doesn't just mean the utility of actions, or some an evolutionary tendency to self preserve, even if it "is" at the same time these things which modern people are also tending to level to in their own theories. "The good" to the Greeks, meant something in general to the world. To use Aristotle's words, (which were in some clarification to Plato) "some" form of good doesn't mean a universal good, but it doesn't equate in that generality to a necessary lack of a particular claim either. This is the whole approach of Aristote's ethics. It seems to me, we should be able to see this, as a general departure too.
Quote:
Oh, those Greeks! They knew how to live: what is needed for that is to stop bravely at the surface, the fold, the skin; to worship appearance, to believe in shapes, tones, words - in the whole Olympus of appearance! Those Greeks were superficial - out of profundity! And is not this precisely what we are coming back to, we daredevils of the spirit who have climbed the highest and most dangerous peak of current thought and looked around from up there, looked down from up there? Are we not just in this respect - Greeks? Worshippers of shapes, tones, words? And therefore - artists?
Nietzsche; The Gay Science
Maybe we do not always have fresh sprouts, the grounds of such greek origins, but it is a simple thing to temper Aristotle into the form of argument we can relate to. Aristotle can be appropriated. Maybe a modern interpretation of Aristotle would have to admit the good, the accomplishing, is always subject to some degree skepticism, what with the degree of interrelation, and cognitivism (a mentality that effectively flows through intertubes) of modern people? Or maybe we have to recognize particularly cynical baselines, like "one always acts in their own interest", all the way on the end of this spectrum. Ayn Rand said she loved "Aristotle" for instance (but it is doubtful she read well.) It is true, maybe, a person and another person may have different ends, and so different ideas of good. This may be leveled to a personal interest, and the way we are in the world from that, may be that we are all each trying to capitalize on our particular ends.
But speaking for Aristotle himself, why call out that possible difference between people first, when a difference in ends, is first of all different to oneself; like the difference between something immediate, in a fork, and down the road, diverging in the yellow wood nearby, or something on the horizon? A "difference in ends" as qualifying the good, in other words, is not subjective or private, but in the world. Maybe each step is an end, a decision one has to agree with oneself on; if it is worth it, if the way is a long way. Why not begin there, and work outward? This human "tendency" to seek good, may be pluralist, but it precedes the narrative or ideology too.
Aristotle would have a concrete example. He says one can make a horse bridle for the sake of the horserider, and do a good job of it. One can do it for the sake of an exchange for goods. One may do it for the sake of art, or for the rider as well, which is a nice thing. These ends do not necessarily disagree with the former, they are different possible ends we may think of though. One may make a horse bridle for the sake of an even higher ideal, as well, for instance, for the strategic battle horse riders go to, and many subordinate acts may contribute to this. So it's true, many people may look to the same horizon, or pool together that way. One may abstain from making horsebridles, and a way of life for the same reason, in the same view too. This is all in a matter of difference in ends, in the world, paths that unfold. They can certainly be something fought over, but again, who is one who begins to find consistency and agreement, and discipline in him or herself?
Maybe Heidegger's contemplations make a bit more sense in this light. I would say, when it is all said and done, the first matter of difference in ends, is not about something subjective, in whether people agree with your opinion, in your perspective, but in whether you agree with yourself, and live by this. This is spontaneous to being. When a path diverges you choose what you do, and sometimes there is no moral, either in truth, or social norm or even to oneself in fact. You can always look back, and think I should have done this or that, but hindsight is always 20/20 right? So what is looking forward? Sometimes there is not much a reason, but it is always because a human being lives to seek.
It would be good to see a natural economy or a simple and practical "function" to virtuous acts, in the world, that begin in self sufficiency. The ancient greeks felt there was something to this, as much as Henry David Thoreau. The virtue of an eye is to see, and of a blade to cut, and again, this is in and of the world. Maybe they are not universal or ultimate goodness, but things tend to pool together. What are these virtues worth; especially the more important ones, and the human ones?
If I am reading Heidegger, an actual nazi philosopher, I consider that his moral failings do not mean he, was wrong in all things. He was a good philosopher. His emphasis on existentiality, or a general authenticity in the world, is in on point, even if he got carried away in narratives and identifications. Existence is opening to the general and common horizon of a world, and living by it, in his case or mine, I figure.
Aristotle is proof, that practical reasoning phronesis, thinking in means and ends, is more than just cleverness, or the ability to get what one wants, or ideological agenda we should always be skeptical of, but something with "something" to it, actually in the world. We seek ends essentially, the good, more or less given the individual, not just in utility, but in accomplishment. Practical wisdom is a matter of working these things out.
"If, then, there is some end of the things we do, which we desire for its own sake (everything else being desired for the sake of this), and if we do not choose everything for the sake of something else (for at that rate the process would go on to infinity, so that our desire would be empty and vain), clearly this must be the good and the chief good. Will not the knowledge of it, then, have a great influence on life? Shall we not, like archers who have a mark to aim at, be more likely to hit upon what is right?"
Aristotle, on happiness (eudomonia); Nicomachean Ethics
Anyway, apologies to go on, but my question would be this: What precedes narrative, in certain ways, that we may take as narrative, or as general awareness? How about Plato's Idea, before ideology? How about Aristotle's good as skillful means, and excellence, before going to war over a moral dispute? And do traditions conceal where they come from, like in foliage, where they branch and reach outwardly, as we follow? Where is the strong trunk, or the root behind all this? Well, I just liked that meditative idea of ground of being, and thought I might say something.
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