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Invisiblephio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23745380 - 10/17/16 11:56 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
this resolving of free will is abysmal (is that the word I'm looking for)

Any large gap is an abyss

The definition of "free", and the determination of "will" are each an abyss.

Once you define freedom it is limited no longer free (it needs abyss in it's totality of meaning), and the idea of what will might be keeps squirming between issues of philosophy, psychology, neurology, physics, and law - and each of those are subject to argument and arcane experimental results that few might understand - hence gap - abyss.

but we have to look into these abbyss'es if we are to move in the directions they provide.

Kind of like a star trek mission.



:asianofapproval:

Very well said which is why I have long since moved on from arguing about the framing of this phenomenon. It has been framed many times over. Present day progress and discussions center moreso on the mechanics and details not whether or not something no one understands exists or not. Take a look and see what its nature is instead....

Philosophical inquiry helps you frame your approach. Once you have a frame or frames, roll up your sleeves and dig in. I wear many hats on my journey and carry many frames but I always remember that its a journey and try not to stagnate on frames.

@redgreenvines : You also made a very profound statement in the text above but i'll leave it at that...
:nicesmile:


Edited by phio (10/17/16 12:04 PM)


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Offlinenothing exists
master of fire

Registered: 12/15/10
Posts: 289
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: phio]
    #23745956 - 10/17/16 03:04 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

an abyss is a misunderstanding of infinite unity. a dis connection.

a fundamental err in perception that divides the i from all else.

this path of reason is very difficult to follow, none bid you follow.

infinity has an end, you just cant reach it.


--------------------
i like you...


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Invisiblephio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: nothing exists]
    #23747372 - 10/17/16 10:03 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

nothing exists said:
an abyss is a misunderstanding of infinite unity. a dis connection.

a fundamental err in perception that divides the i from all else.

this path of reason is very difficult to follow, none bid you follow.

infinity has an end, you just cant reach it.




One man's abyss is seemingly another's infinity.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: nothing exists]
    #23747864 - 10/18/16 03:31 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

nothing exists said:
infinity has an end, you just cant reach it.



no
and parallel lines never cross
you get it?


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Offlinenothing exists
master of fire

Registered: 12/15/10
Posts: 289
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23748001 - 10/18/16 06:18 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

infinity is real, lines are imaginary

get it?

Nothing is the end of infinity


--------------------
i like you...


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: nothing exists]
    #23748005 - 10/18/16 06:19 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

no


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Offlinebigdoodie
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Registered: 06/24/16
Posts: 238
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
    #23748017 - 10/18/16 06:30 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

God is the supreme reality, when everything comes to life and the 6ft alien looking at you in the mirror becomes the scariest thing youve ever seen. Life without perception.


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Offlinenothing exists
master of fire

Registered: 12/15/10
Posts: 289
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23748039 - 10/18/16 06:44 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

look into a mandelbrot series, there is the black part, that is Nothing, all the patterns emmanating from there are infinite, they only 'terminate' at other black spots, also Nothing

Nothing is what the universal spark acts upon to create reality.

in the real, as in the mandelbrot, the black areas become infinite variation, swirling together to form matter and bodies, like quarks and atoms.

everything is only Nothing in infinite variety

there can be no [nothing]


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: nothing exists]
    #23748055 - 10/18/16 06:53 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

that does not equate nothing with infinity,
many primitive and ancient concepts don't fit the world as it is.
calling infinity nothing is mentally brutish
referring to the end of infinity is mentally brutish


--------------------
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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: Rahz]
    #23750345 - 10/18/16 09:17 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

this resolving of free will is abysmal




I guess it depends on how much importance one places on finding an answer. Philosophical inquiry can be painful at times when the self is the subject, but I wouldn't trade my time here for anything.

My only contention with the OP was the characterization of the cheerful atheist as lame. It's difficult to say what goes on in the mind of Tyson or Dawkins, but the perception that it must be a cover for existential pain is just a guess and perhaps a reflection of one's outlook. I hope that individuals find a way to resolve their madness, even if there are no answers to be found that satisfy the logical mind.

It was Nietzsche who also said "“That which does not kill us, makes us stronger.”




Its not so much that I think they (dawkins, tyson, sagan etc.) are covering something up in their own lives, its more that I think their popularity is a cover for existential dread in the wider atheist community. As i've said, they don't take into account the tragic nature of humanities relation to the universe in a secular society, and they fail to see what was lost.

Having said that I like  many others feel both pain and a kind of exhilaration at being a piece of dust flouting in an infinite abyss of time and space. Its kinda like being told the world is going to end. You morn the loss of what could have been, but there is still a kind of excitement.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


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InvisibleHobozen
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Registered: 11/03/11
Posts: 10,634
Loc: Flag
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23750353 - 10/18/16 09:20 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Both phio and Rhaz made great points. This has been one if not the best (and most entertaining) arguments on free will during my time here.

To freer will !


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23750364 - 10/18/16 09:24 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

blingbling said:
...
In my opinion the Buddhist or meditative tradition ... is an attempt to deny, silence or destroy the self/identity ...




buddhist meditation is of 2 forms that converge: relaxation and then insight.

neither has anything to do with ego, which is a side issue, like money. an artificial intermediate thing that is not the real thing.

One learns to be more still and more quiet by practicing, then one begins to see between the frames of expectation, which is where the artificiality comes in. Nothing is destroyed, but the meditator gets calmer and sees more between the frames which makes him or her more spontaneous and creative, tuned in to more than the usual social games and rat race consumption initiatives.

I think you discount this because of ignorance or not making progress in your meditation, try to be more patient and take in a bigger view.




There are many types of meditation as you know, but the most spiritually enlightening experiences of meditation tend to involve the deconstruction of the self, seeing its illusory nature etc. This, I think, can be used as a cover for existential dread because if there is no self then nothing dies when the heart ceases to beat, which is reassuring. Since the death of god these kind of "reassurances" are becoming more popular. In this way meditation is similar to hedonism, the attempt to forget the self through pleasure. Meditation can also lead one to nirvana, which is essentially buddhist heaven.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23750382 - 10/18/16 09:28 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
what's wrong with the abyss anyway?
more accommodation to what is not categorized should be happening so that we are better attuned to what is between the frames in the movie of life.

the abyss is a very large gap of that same sort




The abyss is the void left by the death of God. It is an inherent lack of meaning which characterises modernity. It is a wellspring of anxiety, that is what's wrong with it.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


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InvisibleHobozen
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/03/11
Posts: 10,634
Loc: Flag
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
    #23750410 - 10/18/16 09:38 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
what's wrong with the abyss anyway?
more accommodation to what is not categorized should be happening so that we are better attuned to what is between the frames in the movie of life.

the abyss is a very large gap of that same sort




The abyss is the void left by the death of God. It is an inherent lack of meaning which characterises modernity. It is a wellspring of anxiety, that is what's wrong with it.




This can also be a powerful learning experience. Imo the abyss contains both wrong and right, because one is likely to experience extremes of both after surviving a deep encounter with it.


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InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
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Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
    #23750950 - 10/19/16 01:18 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Its not so much that I think they (dawkins, tyson, sagan etc.) are covering something up in their own lives, its more that I think their popularity is a cover for existential dread in the wider atheist community. As i've said, they don't take into account the tragic nature of humanities relation to the universe in a secular society, and they fail to see what was lost.




Thanks for clarifying. I think I can see your point, that such visions may provoke people into give up their faith without a safety net. Reminds me of an article I read about Transcendentalism resulting more often in a depressed disillusionment rather than Nirvana. Perhaps humans aren't designed for such change, but it's what has happened. Maybe being naked you wish for your clothes back. But if they were offered, would you take them?

Quote:

I like  many others feel both pain and a kind of exhilaration at being a piece of dust flouting in an infinite abyss of time and space. Its kinda like being told the world is going to end. You morn the loss of what could have been, but there is still a kind of excitement.




Curious qualities for a piece of dust.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: Rahz]
    #23751060 - 10/19/16 03:14 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Maybe being naked you wish for your clothes back. But if they were offered, would you take them?

This is the point of the title of the thread.

IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU

Once the abyss has gazed into you, for better or worse you are forever changed.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling] * 1
    #23751248 - 10/19/16 06:55 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

that means you change yourself as you confront and accept the undefined.
because the abyss is not a person,
and it does not gaze.

atheists should not use poetry that makes them seem to be theists. it's a bad example for the others.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Offlinenothing exists
master of fire

Registered: 12/15/10
Posts: 289
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23751305 - 10/19/16 07:44 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
that does not equate nothing with infinity,
many primitive and ancient concepts don't fit the world as it is.
calling infinity nothing is mentally brutish
referring to the end of infinity is mentally brutish



wow, you get lost easily. slow down and read the words. i choose them very carefully.

infinity is a description of universal process, not an object.

the universe is infinite interaction of Spark and Nothing.

Nothing is the fabric of reality, the everyday illusion of matter, the "space" an atom occupies.

Spark animates Nothing, causing it to appear "alive" to us. Spark comes from "outside" the universe. it was a momentary event there that here becomes everything forever without beginning or end.

the "end of infinity" is where Spark meets Nothing and becomes matter.


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i like you...


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: nothing exists]
    #23751374 - 10/19/16 08:37 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

spark and nothing are what?
is that where investigation ends?
is that an alternative quantum science?

nothing and infinity are not one thing, least of all mathematically.


--------------------
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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #23753461 - 10/19/16 10:12 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
that means you change yourself as you confront and accept the undefined.
because the abyss is not a person,
and it does not gaze.

atheists should not use poetry that makes them seem to be theists. it's a bad example for the others.




All language is metaphorical. There is nothing about the word "chair" that defines it as a piece of wood with four legs that people sit on. Your argument is ridiculous. You basically just told me to stop speaking, which is the point of a forum.

And, I don't mind if people think I'm a theist even though I have openly identified as an atheist. There is more atheism in the bible than in these banal secular meditations specifically designed to shelter people from reality.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


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