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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: phio]
#23741086 - 10/15/16 10:59 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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phio said:
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blingbling said: Why is man divided, polarized, and confused in this modern age? because they have rejected the infinite universe, its creations, and its meanings and that's on them.
Boom, got it. That kind of mindset is indeed an abyss and a self-perpetuated one. Kind of expected when people abandon 1000s of years of theological analysis in favor of nothing.
I'm glad that you've finally figured out that you actually agree with me cause that was getting painful.
As for the rest of your post, I have done much study into these things and not just reading. I have done some research with actual practicing mystics and the like and I don't find it convincing. As you said, the trick is to let go. We agree about much, but sit on opposite sides of the boundary between belief and dis-belief in an ultimate redeeming force. In some ways I'm actually jealous of you, but as I said earlier not everything that one finds true is satisfying. I've stared long into the abyss, that place where God used to bestow meaning on the world, and it has gazed into me.
Ok, I think i get you now which is cool. Seems you have journeyed quite a bit and I have nothing but respect for that. I do wish that increased understanding comes to you as you journey on forward as I do for myself.
Cheers bling bling. 
Cheers friend
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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phio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
#23741164 - 10/15/16 11:44 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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blingbling said:
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laughingdog said: All the spiritual teachers of the meditative traditions therefore distinguish awareness from the contents of awareness. Among the contents of awareness is our compulsive striving to keep being sure that we are who we think we are, with a constant stream of inner dialogue or thought. The abyss begins to open as inner dialogue, quiets down.
In my opinion the Buddhist or meditative tradition (which has now taken on secular forms totally different from the way it continues to be practiced in Asia) is an attempt to deny, silence or destroy the self/identity because in our modern secular epoch it is too painful to have an identity which you see as your own special perspective in the world, and yet for all that to amount to nothing in the grand scheme of things or at the cosmic level.
In this sense meditation is similar in scope to hedonism, the attempt to forget ones place in the cosmos and focus on things which bring pleasure; sex, drugs, power over others. Some atheists see meditation as an antidote to the malaise of modernity, the abyss that gazes into us. I am not that optimistic.
Now you're just winning me over....
Cut it out

But bling.. Hmm, see ...you'll say something like this and its like .. K, wow he gets it. Why do you chose not to complete the circle to this observation. Think on it. You know what I'm referring to.
And hmm, can you explain how Atheism doesn't lead to secularism or how you can maintain an Atheist view yet feel that secularism causes ills? How do you maintain opposition between the two? Do you maintain : this is my belief but I'm cool with all belief systems being taught?
Help me out here. You make a solid observation above. Now, i'm trying to understand how you decouple with secularism.. You seem to be a rare type of Atheist I must say ...
There's a gem in you .. i know it
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: phio]
#23741191 - 10/16/16 12:07 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well friend, you could say that I am a Christian Athiest, which probably sounds ridicules to you, but think about it like this: Not all atheisms are equivalent. Someone who comes from a hindu tradition and becomes an atheist in my opinion will be different than someone who comes from the Christian tradition. Many Hindu's are polytheistic so they believe in many Gods each of which represents a particular aspect of nature. If you stop believing in these personifications of the natural forces you are still left with a kind of spiritual residue in those natural forces themselves. I have no evidence to base this on, but I believe that atheism developed out of the hindu tradition is less psychologically distablizing than atheism developed out of the Christian tradition.
Consider the following painting from the Chirstian medieval period. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/06/24/91/062491a3c27896bf02578e9c53474efa.jpg
In those times satan was painted blue as he was furtherest away of the warmth of Gods love. When an atheist from the Christian tradition denies God there is a psychological structure left behind, that one is cold and alone like satan. Nieztche knew this, which is why he wanted to bring about a new system of morality based on ancient Greek polytheism even though he was a strict atheist. He perceived the Christian "slave morality" to be present in post Christian culture's even though they denied God. The psychological structures of religion can be maintained even when one denies religiosity.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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phio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
#23741233 - 10/16/16 12:40 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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blingbling said: Well friend, you could say that I am a Christian Athiest, which probably sounds ridicules to you,
Nah man, makes perfect sense now ... I was wondering why all the conflict. Yeah, blend as many things as you feel w.r.t to what describes your views and what resonance with you. I have nothing but respect for that. A singular word for a belief system is hard to get behind anyway. I always disliked them.
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blingbling said: but think about it like this: Not all atheisms are equivalent. Someone who comes from a hindu tradition and becomes an atheist in my opinion will be different than someone who comes from the Christian tradition. Many Hindu's are polytheistic so they believe in many Gods each of which represents a particular aspect of nature. If you stop believing in these personifications of the natural forces you are still left with a kind of spiritual residue in those natural forces themselves.
Makes perfect sense.
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blingbling said: I have no evidence to base this on, but I believe that atheism developed out of the hindu tradition is less psychologically distablizing than atheism developed out of the Christian tradition.
Makes logical sense.
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blingbling said: Consider the following painting from the Chirstian medieval period. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/06/24/91/062491a3c27896bf02578e9c53474efa.jpg
In those times satan was painted blue as he was furtherest away of the warmth of Gods love. When an atheist from the Christian tradition denies God there is a psychological structure left behind, that one is cold and alone like satan.
Indeed, well this is the major problem with a lot of 'religion'.. It taints and colors a more pure spirituality with all of these further off man-made extensions... Some are even in contradiction with the spiritual texts ..
I could imagine, the further those hooks sunk the more revolted one becomes once they exit. Thus the spectrum of Atheist .. I really wish a lot of religions weren't practiced in the way they are.... Leaves a lot of followers decimated
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blingbling said: Nieztche knew this, which is why he wanted to bring about a new system of morality based on ancient Greek polytheism even though he was a strict atheist. He perceived the Christian "slave morality" to be present in post Christian culture's even though they denied God. The psychological structures of religion can be maintained even when one denies religiosity.
See, now I have a better picture of what's behind your beliefs. Thank you for sharing that with me. One of the worst things about how religion is practiced is in such a way that judgement and morality are hung over a person's head to the point that it conveys that only if one attempts to be as perfect as a little peach will they make it into heaven. Many people get completely single-minded or revolted by such a hollow path.
The other amazing portions that inspire a rich life, grace, understanding,love, and forgiveness are left by the way-side. Those are the most important parts !!!! Morality is there to teach you the power of being good to yourself in how it manifests in greatness for you, others, and your environment.. It's not to be used to enslave you.
So yeah, I hear you brother and now I understand you more. Journey on and journey with love, peace, and understanding.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: phio]
#23741447 - 10/16/16 04:17 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Indeed, well this is the major problem with a lot of 'religion'.. It taints and colors a more pure spirituality with all of these further off man-made extensions... Some are even in contradiction with the spiritual texts ..
I could imagine, the further those hooks sunk the more revolted one becomes once they exit. Thus the spectrum of Atheist .. I really wish a lot of religions weren't practiced in the way they are.... Leaves a lot of followers decimated
Actually I think the discrption of satan as blue, cold and alone is more true to the experience of secularism than much of the banal and triumphant representations of atheism which you find among the most famous atheists, the carl sagans and richard dawkins of the world.
I think this is something that Christianity has actually gotten right. Satan, like the atheist, is the most far from God's redemptive power and this is painful. This is where I get the "Christian" aspect of my atheism from. I actually agree with quite a lot of what Christians have to say about what it means to be an atheist and to live in a secular society.
If you like this line of reasoning check out this clip from the philosopher Zizek. He is ripping off the theologian Chesterton, but at least he does a good job of it.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
#23741599 - 10/16/16 07:29 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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blingbling said: ... In my opinion the Buddhist or meditative tradition ... is an attempt to deny, silence or destroy the self/identity ...
buddhist meditation is of 2 forms that converge: relaxation and then insight.
neither has anything to do with ego, which is a side issue, like money. an artificial intermediate thing that is not the real thing.
One learns to be more still and more quiet by practicing, then one begins to see between the frames of expectation, which is where the artificiality comes in. Nothing is destroyed, but the meditator gets calmer and sees more between the frames which makes him or her more spontaneous and creative, tuned in to more than the usual social games and rat race consumption initiatives.
I think you discount this because of ignorance or not making progress in your meditation, try to be more patient and take in a bigger view.
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_ đź§ _
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: phio] 1
#23742064 - 10/16/16 10:48 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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One assuming they can start from scratch and make up for 1000s of years of thinking by millions of people confines one to an impossible journey and indeed despair is to be found in such a journey.
I don't believe in free will but if I did I would say, good job repressing your free will! 
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In essence, when people have spent 1000s of years reasoning and working through sound beliefs that stand the test of time, there is no point or benefit it absolutely abandoning it when you have no better beliefs yourself. That's destructive and a self-perpetuated abyss as its a journey you will never rise out of given one's limited time on earth. This has nothing to do with the infinite and is instead an individual's own creation.
It would be wrong to assume long standing beliefs are correct or that people's beliefs in general are correct. Destruction is a necessary aspect of life and doesn't necessarily lead to an abyss. I already explained there is a spectrum of perception in that regard.
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Given this neat thing called consciousness, such a position resigns one also to a self-perpetuated abyss.
According to you. Statements without substantiation don't make good arguments.
As for the rest, your post exhibits the type of belief systems that leads to confusion while desperately trying to avoid it.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
#23742221 - 10/16/16 11:34 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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what's wrong with the abyss anyway? more accommodation to what is not categorized should be happening so that we are better attuned to what is between the frames in the movie of life.
the abyss is a very large gap of that same sort
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phio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: Rahz]
#23742276 - 10/16/16 11:53 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Rahz said: I don't believe in free will but if I did I would say, good job repressing your free will!
Broad misunderstanding of what was said.. You could spend your waking life sitting outside observing apples fall from a tree with your free will. Due to a neat thing called gravity, it's likely you'll keep observing the same thing over and over. I don't feel that indicating and understanding this truth is repression. You wanna start from 'ground zero' ignoring all of man's accumulated time tested knowledge with no framework or heading? You're more than happy to... However, if you find yourself lost and in the grips of an abyss, it doesn't take a genius to figure out why. Now, if you feel something is flawed or incorrect and you go on to deconstruct it to figure out why or figure out a better answer, this is far different as you are with : purpose.
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Rahz said: It would be wrong to assume long standing beliefs are correct or that people's beliefs in general are correct. Destruction is a necessary aspect of life and doesn't necessarily lead to an abyss. I already explained there is a spectrum of perception in that regard.
It would be quite logical to assume that something that has lasted the test of time has truth present in it. Given the laws of this universe and a trend towards increasing entropy, nothing holds together for long that doesn't have truth structured in it. Loosely structured constructs are weathered much faster. Go and take a look at nature.
Destruction : the action or process of causing so much damage to something that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired. The definition is quite clear.
Deconstruction is quite different. I do agree with there being a spectrum of perception. Some lead to an abyss. Some don't.
At the end of the day, it is of a person's construction. Thus, I actually don't have much to say about it. It's on the person who creates their perception to sort it out necessarily.
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Rahz said: According to you. Statements without substantiation don't make good arguments.
The statement holds .. Then again, you don't believe in free-will nor are you necessarily familiar with the scientific, logical, or philosophical works which back it.
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Rahz said: As for the rest, your post exhibits the type of belief systems that leads to confusion while desperately trying to avoid it.
I'm not confused. So , I find that quite laughable. To each their own. At the end of the day, I really don't have much to say about someone else's subjective experience. If you're stuck in an abyss or if society is and has no clue why, I provided a starting point worth consideration. That is all.
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phio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: redgreenvines]
#23742287 - 10/16/16 11:54 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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redgreenvines said: what's wrong with the abyss anyway? more accommodation to what is not categorized should be happening so that we are better attuned to what is between the frames in the movie of life.
the abyss is a very large gap of that same sort
As I was saying earlier, I think the terms and wording is what's causing the confusion. That abyss.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: phio]
#23742571 - 10/16/16 01:31 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't see where the misunderstanding is on my part. However I never suggested starting from ground zero (although in principal it's not a bad idea), just that some critical thinking should be applied. If a belief is accepted as valid it should be done so through critical thinking and even then it should be seen that the desired effect is in it's utility, not it's ultimate veracity. To that point, it's not truth we're talking about but working theories. If the theories work, that's great. That's the point of having them. Let's just not call it truth if we're being honest. Eggs cause high cholesterol. Appeal to common belief is a logical fallacy.
You indicate my post leads to the abysmal and yet the whole point of my post was to suggest that it's simply a self reinforcing belief that's only true because we believe it is true. I have no idea how you are coming to your conclusions. The gist of what I'm saying was put well by laughingdog, and I couldn't agree more with this quote:
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We are avoiding the abyss of the unknown, of not knowing, of risking insecurity. This might be called the activity of ego. All the spiritual teachers of the meditative traditions therefore distinguish awareness from the contents of awareness. Among the contents of awareness is our compulsive striving to keep being sure that we are who we think we are, with a constant stream of inner dialogue or thought. The abyss begins to open as inner dialogue, quiets down.
Again, the "abyss" is a reflection of our internal state and is not inherently a positive or negative thing.
Anyway, I have participated in at least several dozen debates over the years on free will. Your assumptions regarding my understanding aren't conducive to meaningful correspondence, but your belief in free will does prove my point. At best it's a working theory. It doesn't have to be true to work. The thought itself may (or may not) have more influence over our perceptions and actions than the truth itself whatever it may be. Not only is free will something that has survived in popularity without substantiation, the idea that will is somehow "free" is only valid in a legal sense. I have never read a good argument that suggests otherwise despite having an interest over many years. The concept itself outside the legal sense is vague and ultimately does nothing but provide the believer with a tentative sense of self control. If it works for you, that's fine but that doesn't mean it's true.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
Edited by Rahz (10/16/16 02:04 PM)
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phio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: Rahz]
#23742849 - 10/16/16 03:00 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Rahz said: I don't see where the misunderstanding is on my part. However I never suggested starting from ground zero (although in principal it's not a bad idea), just that some critical thinking should be applied.
As I stated, that's the difference between :
Destruction : the action or process of causing so much damage to something that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired.
Deconstruction: the analytic examination of something (as a theory) often in order to reveal its inadequacy
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Rahz said: If a belief is accepted as valid it should be done so through critical thinking and even then it should be seen that the desired effect is in it's utility, not it's ultimate veracity. To that point, it's not truth we're talking about but working theories. If the theories work, that's great. That's the point of having them. Let's just not call it truth if we're being honest. Eggs cause high cholesterol. Appeal to common belief is a logical fallacy.
You indicate my post leads to the abysmal and yet the whole point of my post was to suggest that it's simply a self reinforcing belief that's only true because we believe it is true. I have no idea how you are coming to your conclusions. The gist of what I'm saying was put well by laughingdog, and I couldn't agree more with this quote:
Again, the "abyss" is a reflection of our internal state and is not inherently a positive or negative thing.
Anyway, I have participated in at least several dozen debates over the years on free will. Your assumptions regarding my understanding aren't conducive to meaningful correspondence, but your belief in free will does prove my point. At best it's a working theory. It doesn't have to be true to work. The thought itself may (or may not) have more influence over our perceptions and actions than the truth itself whatever it may be. Not only is free will something that has survived in popularity without substantiation, the idea that will is somehow "free" is only valid in a legal sense. I have never read a good argument that suggests otherwise despite having an interest over many years. The concept itself outside the legal sense is vague and ultimately does nothing but provide the believer with a tentative sense of self control. If it works for you, that's fine but that doesn't mean it's true. 
Never said an abyss was a negative thing. Just highlighted how you can get there. Not believing in free-will is seemingly an abyss.
On free-will, I've had enough silly debates with people on the topic as well. I guess.. enjoy your non free-will'd choice to believe you don't have free-will. I'm not going to fight you on it as I indeed understand that its a belief you're chosing to subscribe to. You can change it at any moment. However, that choice is yours and yours alone.
I have got other constructive things to do w/ my free-will and limited time.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: phio]
#23742887 - 10/16/16 03:13 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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As I stated, that's the difference between :
Destruction : the action or process of causing so much damage to something that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired.
Deconstruction: the analytic examination of something (as a theory) often in order to reveal its inadequacy
Sometimes it's useful to destroy our ideas. Besides, you're just drawing a semantic argument that doesn't change the validity of what I said or the spirit in which it was said. If that's all you got I'm not sure why we aren't on the same page.
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On free-will, I've had enough silly debates with people on the topic as well. I guess.. enjoy your non free-will'd choice to believe you don't have free-will. I'm not going to fight you on it as I indeed understand that its a belief you're chosing to subscribe to. You can change it at any moment. However, that choice is yours and yours alone.
I have got other constructive things to do w/ my free-will and limited time.
Bowing out when things get difficult. I don't want to rehash that conversation either, but I'm always curious. I suspect you don't want to have that conversation because you cannot prove it, otherwise it would be a piece of cake right? I don't believe in free will because it doesn't connote anything sensical that will doesn't already. I will enjoy my willed choice to not believe in something that doesn't make sense.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
Edited by Rahz (10/16/16 03:27 PM)
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phio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: Rahz]
#23743054 - 10/16/16 04:17 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Rahz said: Sometimes it's useful to destroy our ideas. Besides, you're just drawing a semantic argument that doesn't change the validity of what I said or the spirit in which it was said. If that's all you got I'm not sure why we aren't on the same page.
Yeah, do as you please... Make your choices and face the consequences. Not much is being said. So, were likely on the same page.
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Rahz said: Bowing out when things get difficult. I don't want to rehash that conversation either, but I'm always curious. I suspect you don't want to have that conversation because you cannot prove it, otherwise it would be a piece of cake right? I don't believe in free will because it doesn't connote anything sensical that will doesn't already. I will enjoy my willed choice to not believe in something that doesn't make sense. 
Not bowing out.. Just aware that people are free to chose and do so per their own will. Free-will : Free will is the ability to choose between different possible courses of action.
Piece of cake. You've demonstrated your choice between different possible courses of action. The reason its not worth debating and not difficult is because its self-evident. If someone choses not to be aware of that or debate it they're debating themselves. An abyss. So, if you want to make that kind of bed for yourself, you're more than willing to sleep in it. Forgive me for not jumping in there w/ you because i know better.
When I delve into issues of free-will i do so in a deconstructive manner so as to understand it better. I don't destructively sit there and deny the self-evident. That's a non-starter. When you use words, look up there definition. Free-will is quite clearly defined and easy enough to understand. Don't attempt to be cute with words/meaning. I'm not here to conduct philosophical circle jerking.
Edited by phio (10/16/16 04:23 PM)
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: phio]
#23743124 - 10/16/16 04:39 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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No it's not self evident. We can only ever make one choice in an instance of time. If we could go back in time and make a different choice that might prove free will, though there would still be some question as to the nature of the divergence. As it stands all we are proving is that we make a choice, which is an act of will. Will is the faculty of expressing deliberate action. Free will is the power of acting without the constraint of fate. Will entails the self evident while free will entails some mysterious unproven ability that allows us to act without determination.
To the point, in the absence of deterministic thought a choice should be fairly arbitrary. There is a quantum effect that may interject a random quality into our choices but the ability to make a random decision isn't exactly what proponents of free will have in mind. That such a quantum effect might be in play suggests fate is not something that is set in stone, yet deterministic qualities seem to be the source of our decision making.
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If someone choses not to be aware of that or debate it they're debating themselves. An abyss. So, if you want to make that kind of bed for yourself, you're more than willing to sleep in it. Forgive me for not jumping in there w/ you because i know better.
That is simply your perception. Again, if such a belief works for you that's fine but it doesn't prove anything, nor does my lack of belief in it indicate whether or not I'm in an abyss or debating myself. These type of unsubstantiated claims don't help your argument.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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phio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: Rahz]
#23743302 - 10/16/16 05:41 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Rahz said: No it's not self evident. We can only ever make one choice in an instance of time. If we could go back in time and make a different choice that might prove free will, though there would still be some question as to the nature of the divergence.
So now free-will constitutes an infinite degree of freedom to be able to travel back in time? You want to be God? Better yet more than God ... Only then does free-will exist to you.
Man I wasn't expecting that...
So, clearly you have free-will and you know it... You just desire more of it, power, increased degrees of freedom, and capability beyond even the rule of law that governs the Universe.
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Rahz said: As it stands all we are proving is that we make a choice, which is an act of will. Will is the faculty of expressing deliberate action. Free will is the power of acting without the constraint of fate. Will entails the self evident while free will entails some mysterious unproven ability that allows us to act without determination.
It doesn't. And there is no scientific backing supporting fate thus there is no constraint imposed by it. Cause/effect relationships aren't fate. Gravity isn't fate. It's a force and is explained by science and physics.
Free will maintains the power of acting which you yourself just declared and boldly declared you want more of including time travel. So now free-will is subject to someone's sci-fi fantasy of being able to go back in time? Clearly it isn't. Free-will speaks not of quantity. The minimal demonstration of free-will is 1 degree of freedom. Not Rahz's infinite and contradictory degrees.
2/2 so far and it is quite clear that you know you have will/free-will you just want more POWER.
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Rahz said: To the point, in the absence of deterministic thought a choice should be fairly arbitrary. There is a quantum effect that may interject a random quality into our choices but the ability to make a random decision isn't exactly what proponents of free will have in mind. That such a quantum effect might be in play suggests fate is not something that is set in stone, yet deterministic qualities seem to be the source of our decision making.
Yeah, quite the puzzle huh? Kind of a non-starter when you don't believe you have free-will in the first place. I'm not here to give you answers on this matter. I wanted to wet your tongue to see what would come off of it. I was not disappointed in your open declaration that you want more free-will and power to do as you please w/o consequence. You know quite well that you have free-will. As for the nature of free-will and its mechanisms, how about you try some deconstruction and figure out for yourself. Maybe therein lies the means to obtain more power.
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Rahz said: That is simply your perception. Again, if such a belief works for you that's fine but it doesn't prove anything, nor does my lack of belief in it indicate whether or not I'm in an abyss or debating myself. These type of unsubstantiated claims don't help your argument.
The burden is on you. Interestingly, its when you don't believe you have free-will that you become most limited. Funny how that works : A self-manifested abyss.
So, you've made yourself clear ... It's funny how that happens without you even being aware of it. This is where we part ways.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: phio]
#23743468 - 10/16/16 06:29 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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So now free-will constitutes an infinite degree of freedom to be able to travel back in time? You want to be God? Better yet more than God ... Only then does free-will exist to you.
If we're to make a distinction between will and free will what do you suggest? Will does not in and of itself represent a diversion from causality. That's the whole of the will/free will debate! Without that distinction there would be no free will debate. And yes, cause/effect do determine (fate) what happens. If you believe otherwise it's on you to explain it, which you haven't done.
The rest of what you bothered to type is redundant and/or more unsubstantiated claims. I suspect you are talking about yourself.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
Edited by Rahz (10/16/16 08:19 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: Rahz]
#23744622 - 10/17/16 06:38 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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this resolving of free will is abysmal (is that the word I'm looking for)
Any large gap is an abyss
The definition of "free", and the determination of "will" are each an abyss.
Once you define freedom it is limited no longer free (it needs abyss in it's totality of meaning), and the idea of what will might be keeps squirming between issues of philosophy, psychology, neurology, physics, and law - and each of those are subject to argument and arcane experimental results that few might understand - hence gap - abyss.
but we have to look into these abbyss'es if we are to move in the directions they provide.
Kind of like a star trek mission.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: redgreenvines]
#23745252 - 10/17/16 11:12 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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this resolving of free will is abysmal
I guess it depends on how much importance one places on finding an answer. Philosophical inquiry can be painful at times when the self is the subject, but I wouldn't trade my time here for anything.
My only contention with the OP was the characterization of the cheerful atheist as lame. It's difficult to say what goes on in the mind of Tyson or Dawkins, but the perception that it must be a cover for existential pain is just a guess and perhaps a reflection of one's outlook. I hope that individuals find a way to resolve their madness, even if there are no answers to be found that satisfy the logical mind.
It was Nietzsche who also said "“That which does not kill us, makes us stronger.”
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: Rahz]
#23745321 - 10/17/16 11:39 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I've liked your distinction between 'will' and 'free' will, Rahz. I too am of the opinion that we execute a will, but do not feel it to be meaningfully free. This is a subtle and philosophically important distinction.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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