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Stranger Registered: 12/23/08 Posts: 8,292 Loc: Manchester, UK Last seen: 4 years, 7 months |
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#edit
Edited by zzripz (10/15/16 11:20 AM)
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Registered: 10/07/16 Posts: 369 |
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Quote: I don't recall anyone asserting such attributes. Further, you seemed to present quite the flawed interpretation as to what theism suggests. If someone comes to America, eats at McDonalds, and then goes on to declares that American food is horrible and they will never eat it again, that's on them for not having 'GAZED LONG'. You're using language such as Souls and sacred texts. You declare that this non-existent force (as atheist assert) is the mechanism behind political polarization. You're conflicting, contradicting, and denying things that you're asserting including atheism. That is quite clear. Quote: Yes because my ability to clearly point out your conflicts with it and your stated belief suggest that I don't understand what is implied by an oft misunderstood metaphor. Quote: Please calm yourself. Critical discussion is critical discussion. When you make bold pronouncements for which you contradict without end please don't take offense to someone who points it out or project chips onto their shoulders because you are upset that they didn't nod their head and turn a blind eye to your contradictions and conflict. Quote: Please stop projecting. It's unbecoming. If you could nullify my declarations of your contradictions with reasoned statements you would. Instead you're now resorting to name calling and mis-attribution much like your mis-attribution for man's conflicts, contentions, and polarizations on something that you claim doesn't exist. Quote: This is a critical discussion so far as I can see. There is no need to extend an Olive Branch. In your opening post you contradict yourself and misattribute a capability to something you claim doesn't exist. I pointed it out. If my commentary was flawed you would have and could have easily highlighted what was flawed about it. You claim something is sacred, speak of souls, talk about voids, infinities, abyss's .. Note the complex and intricate structure, purpose, and consciousness present in the Universe but claim there was no overarching consciousness that made it so.. Yes because logically such complexity arises out of nowhere and magic. Quote: You dug your hole at the thread open. If you were with defense you'd present it. Instead you're deflecting... My spirituality grew btw when I held it up to strong critique and revised and grew it when I found it wasn't able to withstand criticism. Man's polarization and conflicts are caused by an unwillingness to break down their belief when there are contradictions and opposing evidence abound. It's the very ego at play that you seem to mention loosely. It has nothing to do with the infinite and everything to do with the finite. If you gaze long into the abyss and truly so, the abyss will gaze back into you and be reflected in you. If you search for the infinite truth and journey long into it, the infinite truth and journey will be reflected in you. Gazing into the infinite (God) does not create polarization. It performs the opposite : it unifies. It's when man gazes out into the infinite clearly structured universe and ignorantly asserts that there is no consciousness above and beyond themselves that they become polarized from the infinite and others. As such, what's reflected in them is the (finite) ego. It is the ego which looks at 1000s of years of clear minded people who have thought the same deep thoughts about the infinite and have settled on understanding and asserts that it is foolery. I am not a fool and embrace truth and knowledge wherever it may come. I embrace the infinite in all of its forms and manifestations. I don't sit here presuming that consciousness is something only randomly given to man or assert that we are the highest form of it when the universe clearly demonstrates were not. Good day to you and good luck with the belief in nothing yet finding yourself oft troubled by 'something'. P.S - People made words for these things so we didn't have millions of bobble heads asserting their own version of the same phenomenon. It may be fashionable in modern times to assert you have some bold new understanding but nothing is new under the sun. Unification occurs when man unifies on concepts not when everyone is running around in disbelief and confusion.
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what you chicken stew? Registered: 09/04/10 Posts: 2,987 Last seen: 3 years, 2 months |
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You are reading ideas into me which I have not espoused. This is typical of self-righteous thiest's. They pretend to know things that they couldn't possibly know.
Furthermore, your attempt to police my language is typical of modern identity politics. Ironically your attempt at critique has demonstrated the very ideas I was attempting to explicate. Your uneasiness with the death of God has forced you into a ridged identity structure such that even the the very existence of an opposing view is intolerable. Therefor, you must fabricate motivations and contradictions in others that don't exist. -------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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Registered: 10/07/16 Posts: 369 |
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Quote: If you could only express what exactly you're trying to say, we could move somewhere. All you've done in reply is name call... Where's your established comments to show that your statements are without contradiction and aren't conflict? Nowhere.. A bold quote, misattribution, conflict, and contradiction devoid of any supporting arguments. Atheism. An all caps thread title should have told me something but I dared to think something of deeper value was going to be discussed. I gain nothing by abandoning science, logic and clear demonstrations of structure and purpose which atheism actively choses to ignore. If you were able to propose a benefit to a belief in nothing, I'd be all ears. At the subatomic and universal scales, a belief in nothing hinders discovery and understanding. It is not a path i chose to take and thus don't remain confused. You present no higher minded case, support, or view point so I fail to see why you think I am hurt or impacted by your views. I came here expecting something deep was going to be discussed.. Anywho, i'm out..
Edited by phio (10/15/16 04:43 PM)
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what you chicken stew? Registered: 09/04/10 Posts: 2,987 Last seen: 3 years, 2 months |
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If you were able to propose a benefit to a belief in nothing, I'd be all ears
1. I'm not arguing for a belief in nothing. I claim to be an atheist, not a nihilist. 2. The whole point of this thread is that at the psychological level there is no benefit, in fact, I have argued that their is a deficit of meaning. You appear to be looking for something in this thread that isn't there, namely the confirmation of the beliefs which you entered the thread with. -------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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Alive Again Registered: 11/10/05 Posts: 9,230 |
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Many ideas have truth to them, but when we're talking about metaphysical reality the truth is partly made of belief, feelings, instincts, so we should consider that defining the abyss is to misdefine it unless we speak in dualistic terms. The abyss could be a sense of mortal despair in the face of eternity, or the sense of a timeless reality who's source can be felt but not seen. Hollow, or full.
I guess in that light it makes sense that 90 some percent of humanity chooses religious belief rather than a desperate sense of living in this existence with no purpose. There is a third way that involves having no beliefs regarding the unexplained and being at the least ambivalent, not towards beliefs, but of the experience itself. Beliefs are made of words, and words can be provocative. It doesn't matter whether they are true or not. I am not suggesting a repressive stance, but that our sense of curiosity cannot stay too long with the same mind set. Gazing long and gazing too long might not be an extremely fine line, but there's no reason to have a sense of allegiance to a metaphysical reality the mind conjures up. That could apply to all realities regardless of whether they provide blankets or cause suffering. There is a narrative with many possible branches and we are constantly putting ourselves into the narrative because that is what there is to do. Whether it's pointless or not is a secondary issue, a subjective viewpoint of an objective reality we don't fully understand. The abysmal atheist shares a quality with the hopeful believer in that they are both on the edge of an existential crisis and need support groups to keep them from falling. -------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Registered: 10/07/16 Posts: 369 |
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Quote: Given the framing, I came here hoping to find a discussion of a deeper topic. When I didn't find one, I was alright with that. However, your opening and continued remarks contradicts itself. So, I'm sitting here wondering most of all what exactly it is that you're trying to say... I even tried to piece apart your statements to get at it. You're providing no extended commentary on the topic you proposed beyond a conflicting/contradictory opening... Do you need see this? Then you say : Quote: There is no benefit maybe because an individual choses for there not to be in their subjective frame. A deficit of meaning in a universe full of meaning reflects on the individual not the universe. ^this is my whole point.... and what's wild to me is that there are reasoned and even scientific approaches to capturing, conceptualizing and perceiving it yet people wallow .. which gets all the way back to your original commentary : " identity politics and the increasing political polarisation. " "All the while the abyss continues to gaze into our collective soul and our only repose is to become more and more entrenched in our own groping for significance." Right there you said it yourself.. What else do you think happens when you subscribe to no meaning or no benefit? You destroy yourself and all that is infinite within you .. All the way thus the abyss gazes at you and into the collective souls of those who take that viewpoint consuming you and your response is to become entrenched in self-perpetuating cycle of attempting to find grand infinite meaning in finite ideas. Let go brother.. what are you holding on so tight to?
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what you chicken stew? Registered: 09/04/10 Posts: 2,987 Last seen: 3 years, 2 months |
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The abysmal atheist shares a quality with the hopeful believer in that they are both on the edge of an existential crisis and need support groups to keep them from falling.
I absolutely agree with this. If I had lived a more tragic life than the one I was lucky enough to live I doubt I would be able to even toy with the idea of life's meaninglessness without total despair. There is a third way that involves having no beliefs regarding the unexplained and being at the least ambivalent, not towards beliefs, but of the experience itself. Isn't this what characterises our modern predicament, a radical skepticism regarding our experience. I fail to see how this is different from secularism which also entails a radical skepticism regarding experience. I don't think that this is really a third way. -------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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what you chicken stew? Registered: 09/04/10 Posts: 2,987 Last seen: 3 years, 2 months |
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Let go brother.. what are you holding on so tight to?
Don't worry brother, I've already let go and stared long into the abyss. A deficit of meaning in a universe full of meaning reflects on the individual not the universe. From the secular perspective the only meaning in the universe is that which is projected from the individual onto the universe. There is no meaning inherent in the universe. This is the deficit I am referring to as "the abyss." what's wild to me is that there are reasoned and even scientific approaches to capturing, conceptualizing and perceiving it What exactly are you referring to. The infinite? Sure, I guess there is evidence for the infinite. But, I am unaware of any compelling evidence of a creator. You're providing no extended commentary on the topic you proposed beyond What exactly would you like to know? your response is to become entrenched in self-perpetuating cycle of attempting to find grand infinite meaning in finite ideas Where exactly have I said that these ideas were "infinite"? This is what you are falsely reading into me. I believe that my ideas will fade into oblivion, just like you, me and everyone we have ever known. What else do you think happens when you subscribe to no meaning or no benefit? You destroy yourself and all that is infinite within you That which is infinite is not me. To understand this is what it means to be human. And I am still here, it hasn't destroyed me. -------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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Registered: 10/07/16 Posts: 369 |
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Quote: Ok.. I'm with you so far. However, before we get going further, this all has to do w/ the framing and belief systems one subscribes to which is why many exist and have for 1000s of years due to the many troubled journeys of theologians. One assuming they can start from scratch and make up for 1000s of years of thinking by millions of people confines one to an impossible journey and indeed despair is to be found in such a journey. Quote: Spirituality and religion are two different things. Some of the world's greatest Scientist were devout followers of various religious beliefs. Many read and thought deeply on the words of eastern religions which helped frame ideas like Binary and quantum physics. In essence, when people have spent 1000s of years reasoning and working through sound beliefs that stand the test of time, there is no point or benefit it absolutely abandoning it when you have no better beliefs yourself. That's destructive and a self-perpetuated abyss as its a journey you will never rise out of given one's limited time on earth. This has nothing to do with the infinite and is instead an individual's own creation. You can't attribute this to the infinite .. It's one's own doing. Quote: Given this neat thing called consciousness, such a position resigns one also to a self-perpetuated abyss. Quote: Sure and the reason is : We live in an ever changing Universe. One must flow with it or be resigned to a cold death. You can actually gaze long into the abyss, your sensibilities will speak to you. If you chose to ignore them and gaze too long, you can indeed be consumed. But you see, that is of your own choosing. You do so freely and even do so beyond a natural 'warning' system. So, it is weird to attribute this to the abyss. The abyss is of one's own making. It doesn't just appear out of thin air. One has to purposely put effort into manifesting it in their subjective consciousness. Quote: Consciousness .. the alternative is death. Quote: Hopefully one gets the point and does things with a point. If one takes on the subjective viewpoint that the universe is without one that's an abyss they resign themselves to and is not an inherent property of the infinite. Quote: I agree and disagree. I agree that you must live in this world and receive it beyond your beliefs and accept it as it is.. I disagree in that I feel that you have way more potential when you actually believe there is something to be discovered vs. a disbelief that there is no higher purpose or plan to this all. You have to be willing to journey to refine and develop your beliefs as you grow because the universe thus does. There is purpose and structure among what should be randomness. Thus, one should go about perceiving the universe as such. I don't foolishly look at a sky scraper or man's creations and say : gee, that complex structure just randomly came to be and there was no intent behind its obviously functional features. I would be an absolute fool to look at far more structured creations that have obvious functions and say : gee you know what, randomly.. just randomly this all came to be .. you know .. just cause .. The universe has varying levels of conscious life but yeah us Humans were it .. Were the max of it all. All of this structure and nature is just random including us. That's an abyss.... It's of one's own creation and mind. People make the free-will'd choice to create it and grow further entrenched because the universe is not an abyss. Day in and day out your conscious experience reminds you of an infinite and far reaching universe of purpose and structure. To ignore that take a great deal of effort and energy and thus is the nature of a personal abyss. Has jack-all as you can see with the infinite and more to do with one's rejection of it and its meaning. The infinite isn't scary. It's calming and comforting. It's your essence. It's nature. We have free-will and can strike out at it but that is the ego and of one's own personal choosing. How one arrives at that point in their life of disbelief and rejection... I have no clue and part of the reason why they probably don't get out of it is because everything is to blame (including that which they say doesn't exist) but themselves. Why is man divided, polarized, and confused in this modern age? because they have rejected the infinite universe, its creations, and its meanings and that's on them.
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Registered: 10/07/16 Posts: 369 |
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Quote: You know.. I have heard this often. I have yet for someone to detail what it is they saw.. I wonder why this is but I more importantly wonder what it is they saw.. Alas, details remain impossible. ![]() Quote: ![]() Boom, got it. That kind of mindset is indeed an abyss and a self-perpetuated one. Kind of expected when people abandon 1000s of years of theological analysis in favor of nothing. Quote: Do some studies on physics, quantum physics, creation theories, the nature of time, entropy, biology, etc .. Boltzman, Feynman, Godel .. etc etc. The biggest issue I find, and I'm not saying this is representative of you is that disbelief comes from not being informed namely on Science. There is stark evidence that stares you directly in the face when you study science which is why many of the renowned figures in science were religious. I don't aim to convert anyone such as you state as well.. I'm just looking at it like (dam), if only you saw what I saw and know what I know about the universe. So, I feel sad to be quite honest to anyone who maintains such a position. I see no value in maintaining it. Technology allows us to understand more not less to a point of disbelief. The trend and buildup is towards belief. You ask me why do I believe there is a higher form of consciousness .. Well, look at nature, why should I assume the buck stops at humans? Who or what do you assume structured the universe that is full of structure? The scientific ruling is that there is no form of randomness that could have resulted in this? Boltzman tried and ruled it a paradox. So, in believing, you're with science. I can still maintain that I am in search of what that exactly is.. but now I have fuel and a purpose as I know there is something out there... Versus sort of giving up and saying .. yeah man, there's nothing .. it's just randomness.. Science even disagrees. You get my point? The point of science is to search for it. As for your further commentary, it seems we got off on an unnecessary fork. Topic was the 'the abyss'. I think we agree that it is something that people through their own thoughts and actions resign themselves to. I don't disagree. Feel bad for em' and wish they could get themselves out of it. It's more common now because people are abandoning the root frameworks provided by those who thought deeply over 1000s of years and they're doing it in favor of nothing and randomness. Self-manifested abyss. I see it as you do thus see it. It's a wild world I guess.
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Stranger Registered: 06/01/13 Posts: 4,216 Last seen: 1 day, 6 hours |
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I think is a concept about self reflection in general..
Like if you are looking at yourself..you are staring..and that staring is both staring at..and with you at the same time..
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Registered: 10/07/16 Posts: 369 |
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Quote: Gotta let go sometimes .. those foolish theologians wrote alot about it.. To bad people have chosen to abandon it.. Thankfully, it's still spoken about
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Alive Again Registered: 11/10/05 Posts: 9,230 |
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Quote: As a matter of practicality I think ambivalence is a good place to start. Knowing that one is ambivalent, bias in the subjectivity is seen. It is only a short step to using that information to look at things without bias. In such a manner both sides of the illusion may fall away and we are left only with the fact of our existence. We can argue about whether a skeptic has belief or a lack of belief, but that's not the point. The problem with skepticism (if it is a problem) is that it doesn't place value in the metaphysical experience. My suggestion is that metaphysical reality is important as far as we humans are concerned, but like the skeptic would say nothing can be known. If a person feels a sense of peace, they don't need to know anything for sure. Peace is not found (for me) in beliefs. It is only in the absence of belief that I can feel good when it comes to spirituality (metaphysical experience) and existentialism (dualistic thoughts regarding our experience). Why this is true for staring into the abyss might be obvious but there's a polarity there, same as a more hopeful stance. In a way the creation of belief is also the creation of skepticism, so the third way I mentioned would avoid such emotional tangles. -------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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what you chicken stew? Registered: 09/04/10 Posts: 2,987 Last seen: 3 years, 2 months |
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Why is man divided, polarized, and confused in this modern age? because they have rejected the infinite universe, its creations, and its meanings and that's on them.
Boom, got it. That kind of mindset is indeed an abyss and a self-perpetuated one. Kind of expected when people abandon 1000s of years of theological analysis in favor of nothing. I'm glad that you've finally figured out that you actually agree with me cause that was getting painful. As for the rest of your post, I have done much study into these things and not just reading. I have done some research with actual practicing mystics and the like and I don't find it convincing. As you said, the trick is to let go. We agree about much, but sit on opposite sides of the boundary between belief and dis-belief in an ultimate redeeming force. In some ways I'm actually jealous of you, but as I said earlier not everything that one finds true is satisfying. I've stared long into the abyss, that place where God used to bestow meaning on the world, and it has gazed into me. -------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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Stranger Registered: 03/14/04 Posts: 4,828 |
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Quote: thanks for the interesting topic: I would guess what Nietzsche meant was that, if you leave behind social norms as the guiding force in your life - doing what is expected of you - - then you will have to confront both who you are, and potential lifetime loneliness. Not knowing who you are, means confronting fears, normals never even know exist. So called ‘beliefe in god’ is a social norm in the USA. So being an atheist, is a small departure from the norm. Nietzsche himself was well outside the norm in many respects, and was a loner. As regards identity. The word makes it sound simple. Children are born with an unmyelinated brain. Which means uninsulated nerve fibers. So it takes a long time for both language and identity to fully integrate. So identity must form to grow up and be functional. We can’t skip over ego formation to get to oneness with the universe. It’s not a problem caused by secularism. Identity and navigating the social world are lifetime works in progress. Identity issues can cause lots of anxiety. This is the abyss we all try to avoid. Hence we work constantly and unconsciously to keep identity going strong. One way we do this is by forming opinions and defending them, by finding new causes and identifying with them etc. We usually think we do these things for the superficial reasons involved, but the secret payoff is continuing to be sure that: we are who we think we are. We are avoiding the abyss of the unknown, of not knowing, of risking insecurity. This might be called the activity of ego. All the spiritual teachers of the meditative traditions therefore distinguish awareness from the contents of awareness. Among the contents of awareness is our compulsive striving to keep being sure that we are who we think we are, with a constant stream of inner dialogue or thought. The abyss begins to open as inner dialogue, quiets down.
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Registered: 10/07/16 Posts: 369 |
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Quote: Ok, I think i get you now which is cool. Seems you have journeyed quite a bit and I have nothing but respect for that. I do wish that increased understanding comes to you as you journey on forward as I do for myself. Cheers bling bling.
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Registered: 10/07/16 Posts: 369 |
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Quote: Solid commentary from start to finish .. I just feel like abyss and the infinite are being used too interchangeably. Furthermore, introverts go through this inner dialogue process a lot. For many it was characteristic very early in their childhood and natural. I never felt it to be an abyss .. More like an amazing and infinite inner playground. Sure, you can get lost in it which is why you 'snap out of it' and remind yourself that the ego/identity albeit a fluid one is important. Destroying your identity isn't all its cracked up to be. It's more important that you come to understand that its fluid and malleable and anneal it with purpose not simply to meddle with it .. Just meddling and destroying for meddling and destruction's sake is what creates an internal abyss of sorts. But yeah, i like your commentary
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Stranger Registered: 03/14/04 Posts: 4,828 |
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Quote: some of the ideas come from: “Dependent Arising In Context: the Buddha's core lesson, in the context of his time and ours” by Linda S Blanchard Paperback: 144 pages ISBN-10: 1481259547 ISBN-13: 978-1481259545 and reviews of it on Amazon
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what you chicken stew? Registered: 09/04/10 Posts: 2,987 Last seen: 3 years, 2 months |
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Quote: In my opinion the Buddhist or meditative tradition (which has now taken on secular forms totally different from the way it continues to be practiced in Asia) is an attempt to deny, silence or destroy the self/identity because in our modern secular epoch it is too painful to have an identity which you see as your own special perspective in the world, and yet for all that to amount to nothing in the grand scheme of things or at the cosmic level. In this sense meditation is similar in scope to hedonism, the attempt to forget ones place in the cosmos and focus on things which bring pleasure; sex, drugs, power over others. Some atheists see meditation as an antidote to the malaise of modernity, the abyss that gazes into us. I am not that optimistic. -------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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