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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU * 1
    #23735160 - 10/13/16 07:28 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I think the above quote from Friedrich Nietzsche's Beyond Good and Evil is an excellent description of what it is like to be an atheist.

I am an atheist, but I find some of the optimistic atheists like Richard Dawkins or Neil Degrasse Tyson lame. I think they ignore the traumatic aspects of atheism and secularism which is so much a part of modernity.

In my opinion the trauma of secularism is the driving force behind our modern identity politics and the increasing political polarisation. Its like everyone is scrambling to say "no! i'm real! i have an identity see!"

All the while the abyss continues to gaze into our collective soul and our only repose is to become more and more entrenched in our own groping for significance.

What'ya think?


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling] * 4
    #23735281 - 10/13/16 08:14 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I think that being dramatic about identity drives fundamentalism.

Then the idea (faith, or cause) erases the individual.

So easy to insert a big mystery into a small infinity.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23735435 - 10/13/16 09:09 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

My question for you is: why be dramatic about identity?

In my opinion people become invested in an identity because of their fear of life's meaninglessness, what Nietzsche calls the abyss. This is true even of atheists. People willingly erase themselves, because it is too hard to live with themselves.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleremake
Male

Registered: 01/05/16
Posts: 4,178
Loc: South Africa Flag
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
    #23735900 - 10/14/16 01:46 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

By being true to ourselves, our contexts, our abilities what have you, we see similarities that are relatable, meaningful and diverse, but often times discounted in ourselves due to fear of embarrassment or shame. Most of our interactions are surface and any commonality is merely fabricated with a diversion from this construction of "normal" (ideology centred - fake - plastic) results in judgement. By going inwards, we go outwards. It's not about being right. It's about being a human being who recognizes other human beings who are, in essence same same, but meaningfully different.


Edited by remake (10/14/16 02:46 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
    #23735970 - 10/14/16 03:08 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
My question for you is: why be dramatic about identity?

In my opinion people become invested in an identity because of their fear of life's meaninglessness, what Nietzsche calls the abyss. This is true even of atheists. People willingly erase themselves, because it is too hard to live with themselves.



maybe it is defensiveness,
not being appreciated as a human by other human family members...
then adopting the normative ideas and behaviors to better fit in with the group...
erasing themselves, because it is too hard to fight normative constraints.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Offlinezzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
    #23735985 - 10/14/16 03:17 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
My question for you is: why be dramatic about identity?

In my opinion people become invested in an identity because of their fear of life's meaninglessness, what Nietzsche calls the abyss. This is true even of atheists. People willingly erase themselves, because it is too hard to live with themselves.




If your worldview/belief/certainty/faith that 'life is meaningless', why do you suppose this should be how others feel about life, and try and impose your views on them?


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23735994 - 10/14/16 03:25 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Not being appreciated by other humans can definitely push someone into a ridged stance regarding their identity, but I think modern societies increasingly secular nature also does this by denying meaningfulness at a cosmic scale.

In a secular society all we have is meaning at the level of society, rather than meaningfulness at the cosmic level like in a religious society.

Because we are starved of cosmic meaning we inflate the meanings imposed on us by society.

Atheism as it is usually spoken of by its advocates rarely takes this into account.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: zzripz]
    #23736012 - 10/14/16 03:39 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

blingbling said:
My question for you is: why be dramatic about identity?

In my opinion people become invested in an identity because of their fear of life's meaninglessness, what Nietzsche calls the abyss. This is true even of atheists. People willingly erase themselves, because it is too hard to live with themselves.




If your worldview/belief/certainty/faith that 'life is meaningless', why do you suppose this should be how others feel about life, and try and impose your views on them?




I'm not imposing my views on anyone friend. Its a simple observation. Do you know anybody who upon hearing that life is pointless would rejoice? People are meaning making machines. We find pointlessness unbearable. Its human nature.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBrian Jones
Club 27
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Registered: 12/18/12
Posts: 12,342
Loc: attending Snake Church
Last seen: 16 hours, 48 minutes
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
    #23736110 - 10/14/16 05:34 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
I think the above quote from Friedrich Nietzsche's Beyond Good and Evil is an excellent description of what it is like to be an atheist.

I am an atheist, but I find some of the optimistic atheists like Richard Dawkins or Neil Degrasse Tyson lame. I think they ignore the traumatic aspects of atheism and secularism which is so much a part of modernity.

In my opinion the trauma of secularism is the driving force behind our modern identity politics and the increasing political polarisation. Its like everyone is scrambling to say "no! i'm real! i have an identity see!"

All the while the abyss continues to gaze into our collective soul and our only repose is to become more and more entrenched in our own groping for significance.

What'ya think?




Shit I guess it was Nietzche. I just remember that line from "Wallstreet"  when the feds come into the office to take Charley Sheen away and his mentor Hal Holbrook says that to him.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
    #23736275 - 10/14/16 07:59 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
Not being appreciated by other humans can definitely push someone into a ridged stance regarding their identity, but I think modern societies increasingly secular nature also does this by denying meaningfulness at a cosmic scale.

In a secular society all we have is meaning at the level of society, rather than meaningfulness at the cosmic level like in a religious society.

Because we are starved of cosmic meaning we inflate the meanings imposed on us by society.

Atheism as it is usually spoken of by its advocates rarely takes this into account.



as if we were victims?
as if someone makes us into starvee's from the cosmic richness...

back to the point of self, we probably neglect our personal meaning voluntarily, and so starve ourselves of the personal references and associations which are what make us who we are.

I think we are attracted to norms and sometimes bullied into accepting them when we are not attracted to joining a group/ a religion/ or a political party.

the cosmic richness (and all that is between the frames)  is within, and it is equally available to atheist as it is to theist or agnostic.
What I like about psychedelics most is observing what is happening between the frames, noticing familiar phenomena that we edit out, visual, auditory, physical and conceptual.

This reminds me to leave in what I tend to skip, to let it be as it is, and not to edit my story, or change my meaning, because of some big idea or for the cause of being 'normal'


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Invisiblephio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
    #23737377 - 10/14/16 02:44 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
I think the above quote from Friedrich Nietzsche's Beyond Good and Evil is an excellent description of what it is like to be an atheist.

I am an atheist, but I find some of the optimistic atheists like Richard Dawkins or Neil Degrasse Tyson lame. I think they ignore the traumatic aspects of atheism and secularism which is so much a part of modernity.

In my opinion the trauma of secularism is the driving force behind our modern identity politics and the increasing political polarisation. Its like everyone is scrambling to say "no! i'm real! i have an identity see!"

All the while the abyss continues to gaze into our collective soul and our only repose is to become more and more entrenched in our own groping for significance.

What'ya think?




No man asserts that they believe in nothing yet feverishly spends their lives looking for something.

Modernity : Nothing is new under the son. The nature of man is such that they must journey to discover that which has always been, is, and will continue to be. There is nothing modern about the truth or the laws that govern the Universe. What is modern is man's conception(s) of it.

Gazing into the abyss isn't exclusive to being an Atheist.
The fact that you believe there to be an abyss and thus stare into it highlights your belief in something infinite.

All of man's systems of knowledge rely on faith. Many just aren't wise enough to see it.
A body of faith lasts the test of time when there are truths present in it. One such body of faith is science. There are many other such older faiths which are still present over thousands of years because there are truths in them.

Man has free-will. When they become polarized its by their own hands. Division occurs when there is a lack of truth. Political polarization is occurring because there is a lack of truth present in it. The very nature of politics centers on lies.


Propaganda is information, especially of a biased nature, used to promote or publicise a particular political cause or point of view. Propaganda is often associated with the psychological mechanisms of influencing and altering the attitude of a population toward a specific cause, position or political agenda in an effort to form a consensus to a standard set of belief patterns.

The truth is barren of intent. Politics is propaganda.

Everyone is scrambling and there is mass confusion as a body of lies serves as their foundation and is at the foundation of many institutions.


What do I think?


I think you are quite confused as to what's going on and your post reflects that.
The abyss is not of the nature many propose it to be and it is being falsely associated with the failings of man in your post.

"IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU"

What is the abyss?
a deep or seemingly bottomless chasm.
The infinite.

"IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE infinite, THE infinite WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU"

Scared of what you might see?



Don't be such a ****
:nicesmile:
You're not supposed to believe in such things after-all.


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: phio]
    #23737720 - 10/14/16 04:44 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

phio said:
What is the abyss?





The abyss is the void left by the death of God.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblephio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
    #23737909 - 10/14/16 05:43 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
Quote:

phio said:
What is the abyss?





The abyss is the void left by the death of God.




Something that you don't believe in as a self-professed Athiest?


Or souls for that matter either?
Quote:

blingbling said:
"All the while the abyss continues to gaze into our collective soul and our only repose is to become more and more entrenched in our own groping for significance."





Or do you? So, what again about the abyss and God? 


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: phio]
    #23738858 - 10/14/16 11:44 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

It is my belief that even as an atheist one should perserve the language of the sacred as some things can only be said using this vocabulary. Furthermore, the use of the language of the sacred by an atheist highlights the very lack inherent in atheism, the abyss if you will.

You have to understand friend, I am not prostelizing atheism. I think atheism is a tragic position, but a true position, and unfortunately not everything that is true is satisfying. So, I respect your apparent belief in the "infinite that gazes into you" but it is not mine.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23738868 - 10/14/16 11:48 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

blingbling said:
Not being appreciated by other humans can definitely push someone into a ridged stance regarding their identity, but I think modern societies increasingly secular nature also does this by denying meaningfulness at a cosmic scale.

In a secular society all we have is meaning at the level of society, rather than meaningfulness at the cosmic level like in a religious society.

Because we are starved of cosmic meaning we inflate the meanings imposed on us by society.

Atheism as it is usually spoken of by its advocates rarely takes this into account.



as if we were victims?
as if someone makes us into starvee's from the cosmic richness...

back to the point of self, we probably neglect our personal meaning voluntarily, and so starve ourselves of the personal references and associations which are what make us who we are.

I think we are attracted to norms and sometimes bullied into accepting them when we are not attracted to joining a group/ a religion/ or a political party.

the cosmic richness (and all that is between the frames)  is within, and it is equally available to atheist as it is to theist or agnostic.
What I like about psychedelics most is observing what is happening between the frames, noticing familiar phenomena that we edit out, visual, auditory, physical and conceptual.

This reminds me to leave in what I tend to skip, to let it be as it is, and not to edit my story, or change my meaning, because of some big idea or for the cause of being 'normal'




I gather from your post that you believe a strong dose of psychedelics would have profound effects on our predicament regarding identity politics. I believe this also.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblephio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
    #23738941 - 10/15/16 12:32 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
It is my belief that even as an atheist one should perserve the language of the sacred as some things can only be said using this vocabulary. Furthermore, the use of the language of the sacred by an atheist highlights the very lack inherent in atheism, the abyss if you will.





An atheists is someone who doesn't believe in God. The infinite... the abyss.. Or souls for that matter. Language of the sacred... God's words?

You're tripping over yourself which is the cause for your confusion and most probably man's in this 'modern' age of identity crisis..

Quote:

blingbling said:
You have to understand friend, I am not prostelizing atheism.




By your own accounts and words, you're not an atheist thus this makes sense. You'd have a hard time proselytizing a belief that you openly contradict.


Quote:

blingbling said:
I think atheism is a tragic position, but a true position




A position that you openly conflict with along with much of the universe.
Indeed a tragedy as it is hardly true.

Quote:

blingbling said:
, and unfortunately not everything that is true is satisfying.




That is because satisfaction is subjective and is
"fulfillment of one's wishes, expectations, or needs, or the pleasure derived from this"

One's wishes can conflict with the truth which is the cause for man's suffering and afflictions.

Quote:

blingbling said:
So, I respect your apparent belief in the "infinite that gazes into you" but it is not mine.





The infinite bothers you apparently which is why you created a thread entitled :
"IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU"

I have never stated my what my beliefs were just pointing out the conflicts with yours
:nicesmile:


Edited by phio (10/15/16 12:42 AM)


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: phio] * 1
    #23739123 - 10/15/16 03:24 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)


The infinite bothers you apparently

By referring to "the abyss" I am not denying the possibility of infinity, I am simply denying the possibility that this infinity has a personality, can hear my prayers, becomes wrathful when disobeyed etc. This is the definition of atheism.

The quote in the title of this thread is simply a metaphor. The fact that I had to spell that out to you saddens me.

By your own accounts and words, you're not an atheist

Its pretty pretentious of you to claim to know more about my beliefs than myself. Its clear to me that you entered this thread with a chip on your shoulder.

Perhaps the gaze of the abyss has been cast upon your soul? That would explain your arrogant attitude.

I have attempted to extend you an olive branch and yet you continue to berate me as if I have personally offended you. It seems to me that you are picking a fight to cover up your own insecurities.

Continue your tirade if you think it will make you feel more supported regarding your own spiritual position, which is clearly in doubt, but you will only find yourself digging a deeper hole.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Edited by blingbling (10/15/16 03:38 AM)


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Offlinezzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
    #23739161 - 10/15/16 04:28 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
The abyss is the void left by the death of God.




'God' was a creation BY those who already had psychologically created a void between themselves and experience, and of course thus connection with the whole of the living intelligent natural world.

So to suggest that the death of that idea is the void is an irony of ironies!


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: zzripz]
    #23739172 - 10/15/16 04:39 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

blingbling said:
The abyss is the void left by the death of God.




'God' was a creation BY those who already had psychologically created a void between themselves and experience, and of course thus connection with the whole of the living intelligent natural world.

So to suggest that the death of that idea is the void is an irony of ironies!




The idea of God was the solidification of the spiritual power of nature into a single individual. When you remove this individual you remove the spiritual power of nature and leave behind a void of meaninglessness.

I agree that the idea of God creates a void between the individual and God (and therefor a void between the individual and nature) But think about the abolition of God as being an extension of that void to all things, not just humanities relation to God. Time and space become a vast and never ending emptiness devoid of human made meanings.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: IF YOU GAZE LONG INTO THE ABYSS, THE ABYSS WILL GAZE BACK INTO YOU [Re: blingbling]
    #23739374 - 10/15/16 07:48 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
...
I gather from your post that you believe a strong dose of psychedelics would have profound effects on our predicament regarding identity politics. I believe this also.



any dose that might help shift the focus back into (the self in) the moment is a good one


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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