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Offlinepopok
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Loc: athens, greece
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Ventilation setup for small commercial cultivation
    #23733096 - 10/13/16 03:24 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Hi,
  I am a small commercial grower of oysters and other on 130sqft (13m2), and I am redesigning my ventilation system. I have a lot of questions lately, we had problems of mold, lack of co2, exposure of fruits to extra moist/dry air, etc. I am wondering how other people do, you guys and girls who are in similar setup.

  So I prepared a serie of questions, first about the context and then about the ventilation itself. I will start by answering myself to describe my current setup :

My answers :
1. Me, I am in athens, Greece, so mediterranean.
2. I grow on rectangular 130sqft/13m2 (updated) with the ceiling height at 2.6m
3. We make our blocks from straw, beech fuel pellet and spent coffee ground, our spawn with barley and oat, and use both commercial strains and spores on agar.
4. We grow mostly oysters (ostreatus, eryngii, pulmonarius, hypsyzygus ulmarius) some pioppino, we try do grow shitake as well. So far, our record is 50kg/month, our winter average is 30kg/month, in summer it is too hot here.

5. So far we used 6inch for the inlet and 5inch for the outlet
6. We used bathroom extractors, 330m3/h(200CFM) for the inlet and 180m3/h(105CFM) for the outlet, but it was clearly insufficient with the greenhouse when 50% full. I think both blowers should be 330m3/h(200CFM) after counting filter pressure, at least.
7. We used polyfill stove filter only, with a rating like G2. Of course, not mold spores proof at all, just good for dust. We plan to improve, but not sure how much filtration is really needed and how much back pressure the blower should stand.
8. In our setup, fresh air goes to a humidifier bucket and get out at a corner of the greenhouse. So we do not distribute the fresh air. We have a fan inside the greenhouse that just keep the air circulating. We do not mix, and I think we have some problems of alternating dry/ humid air blowing on mushrooms, that's why this question.
9. We keep humidity at 78-83% usually. We do not fluctuate humidity, should we do it to reduce mold ?

My questions :
  1. where your setup is located (what climate) ? 
  2. How big, how much surface and volume do you have for the greenhouse ?
  3. Do you make your own blocks or buy them ? Do you make your own spawn ? Do you use commercial strains or grow from spores ?
  4. What species of mushroom do you grow ? How much maximum/average do you harvest per month ?

  5. About the ventilation, now. How large is the diameter of the pipes ?
  6. How strong is the inlet and the outlet blowers ?
  7. what type of filtration do you use on fresh air ?
  8. do you distribute the fresh air throughout the greenhouse space ? do you recirculate air inside the greenhouse ? do you mix fresh and recirculated air before distributing throughout the greenhouse ?
  9. how much relative humidity do you maintain in your growing space ? do you fluctuate humidity ?

Thanks for reading me, I hope you will help me with my questions.


--------------------
-----

Visit our blog and our oyster farm on FB


Edited by popok (10/16/16 11:19 AM)


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Invisiblesolarity
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Re: Ventilation setup for small commercial cultivation [Re: popok]
    #23733791 - 10/13/16 11:22 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Yassou!

Bathroom extractors work fine, but not with any sort of resistance. You can fix your flow easily by removing the filtration - it is not needed for fruiting. Then use a separate blower for the humidity bucket. Or get a more powerful in line centrifugal fan b(look at the watts). I use 150mm /6" in and out bathroom fans. Same size rooms. No issues.


--------------------
Commercial exotics farmer for 8 years - now sold up!


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Offlinepopok
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Re: Ventilation setup for small commercial cultivation [Re: solarity]
    #23734374 - 10/13/16 02:46 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Yassou Solaris, ti kanis ? Thanks for your answers.

Don't you use any filtration at all on fresh air in your setup ? No issues of insects and mold spores ?  We used a polyfill filter before, but I want to improve to carbon at least, also because of urban pollution, with of course a more powerful fan. We get some mold after the flushes, so I was thinking of using some cheap hepa with carbon + polyfill.

Why use a separate bucket for humidity ? here most of the time fresh air is dry as hell like 35-55% when not raining, maybe in the UK it is different.


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Invisiblesolarity
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Re: Ventilation setup for small commercial cultivation [Re: popok]
    #23736227 - 10/14/16 07:27 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Separate fan for humidity just to keep your airflow up. You can get a more powerful fan and use the same one.

You can get away with a lot of you have good airflow. Yes insects are a problem but once you have 2 flies you have 2 million flies 3 days later so :shrug:

No idea about urban pollution though, Athens was pretty bad when I was there but spent 6 month on Cephalonia. If it is an issue then Carbon may work  - but mushrooms grow outdoors after all!

Fully colonised healthy sub is not really susceptible to mould until it starts to get old and die. A good hose out gets rid of a lot of flies, surface spores etc. and just be very careful to remove any old material. Really good air exchange is key. Remove the filtration you have and increase air flow - see how the results are before doing lots of other things.

The UK is very changeable just a few weeks ago it was 27C in my rooms, now it is 10C.


--------------------
Commercial exotics farmer for 8 years - now sold up!


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Invisiblemicelio
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Re: Ventilation setup for small commercial cultivation [Re: solarity]
    #23736603 - 10/14/16 10:03 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

This is a popular commercial oyster spawn.
The fruit has a good shelf life..  Amycel locations are world wide.. France, Netherland, US, Mexico and many other locations.

Buy their spawn once and make your own spawn using their spawn as a master..

In the states 20 lbs. sells for 23.00 dollars...

They recommend a minimum of 4 to 5 air exchange per hour... 

AMYCEL
3015
Pleurotus
ostreatus

Marketing Characteristics:
Amycel3015 Pleurotus ostreatus produces a whitish gray to blue gray fruiting body.
Depending on which growing practice is used, it will form large mushroom clusters or
smaller, single mushrooms.
This strain is a cap tongue shaped, maturing to a shell shaped form 5-15 cm (2-6 in) in
diameter, with even or wavy margins, and an off-centered stipe
Note: The following are recommendations for growing Amycel's 3015, Pleurotus ostreatw
Due to the many variables involved in growing mushrooms, Amycel makes no
guarantees regarding these recommendations.
General Characteristics
Amycel's 3015 is a fast growing, self fruiting and high yielding, Pleurotus ostreatus that
adapts readily to many different types of growing conditions and substrates. Though in
nature wild strains are numerous in the fall and early winter. Amycel' s 3015 under
controlled environments, is a year round crop.
Substrate and Pasteurization
Substrate: This strain accepts a broad range of substrates. Typical materials can be
chopped or whole wheat straw, hardwood sawdust, cottonseed hulls, sugar cane bagasse,
paper mill sludge, and other agricultural waste by products. After pasteurization, limestone
or calcium carbonate should be added to achieve a pH 6.8 and 7.2. Depending on the
material used, nitrogen content of the substrate after pasteurization should be between 0.6%
and 1.3%, with moisture between 70% and 80%.
Pasteurization: Typically pasteurization is done either by injection of live steam for a
minimum of2 hours at 70° - 75° C (160°F - 170°F) or by submerging the substrate in a hot
water bath for 1 hour 70° - 80° C (160°F - 170°F).
Spawning
Spawning should take place after the substrate has cooled to between 25°C and 30°C (75°F85°
F), with rates between 2% and 4% of the wet weight of the substrate.
Those new Amycel's 3015 are encouraged to use the higher rates until becoming more
experienced with the strain.
Temperature: 25°C and 30°C (75°F-80°F) not to exceed 33°C (92°F). Spawn runs normall)
takes between 7 to 14 days. Thermal death occurs above lO4°F/48 hrs
Relative Humidity: 90-100%
Carbon Dioxide: 15,000 and 20,000 ppm or 15% to 20% by volume.
Flushing: Amycel's 3015 will fruit at a very wide range of temperatures, lOoe to 28°C
(50°F - 80°F) with the optimum range between 13°C and 16°C (55°F - 60°F).
Humidity: 95% to 100% during for formation of the primordia.
Carbon Dioxide: 600 PPM - ventilate to a minimum of 4 rresh air exchanges each hour.
Light Requirements: 2,000 lux/hr - 12 hr/day ..
Watering: Mist 1 - 2 times/day
2
Cropping: Crop while the leading edge of the cap flat. Overly mature product is
characterized by an upward curling of the outer margin of the cap.
Humidity: 85% to 92%.
Carbon Dioxide: Below 600 ppm - ventilate with a minimum 4-6 fresh air exchanges eac
hour.
Watering: Mist regularly to prevent cap splitting and to keep resting pinheads viable.
Light: 2,000 lux/hr for 12 hr/day ..
Flush Intervals: Approximately every 10 days.
NOTE: Workers are encouraged to wear masks whenever working around spore
producing mushrooms. Spores may cause allergic reactions in some workers.


http://www.amycel.pl/application/files/9214/5865/1725/3015__Technical_Presentation.pdf


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Offlinepopok
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Re: Ventilation setup for small commercial cultivation [Re: solarity]
    #23742335 - 10/16/16 12:08 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks again, solarity. I like the idea of keeping up keeping a high airflow, but I am surprised that you keep up with only bathroom fans on 300sqft. You are growing oysters, right ? How much mycelium blocks do you put in the greenhouse ? how long do you keep them inside ? Do you empty all the greenhouse from time to time for extracleaning/bleaching and getting rid of fungus gnats ?

With our previous setup, last year, we started having CO2 problems (>700 ppm) when we had about blocks equivalent to 200-250 kg dry substrate in the greenhouse. A lot of un-enriched wood blocks, that suck O2 without giving a big harvest. I miscalculated my previous surface, which was finally only 130sqft/13m2. We extended it now to 200sqft/20m2. With stamets recommendation of 12 exchange per hour, that's already 624m3/h(367CFM), twice the capacity of a bathroom blower, and without any filter yet. We have to use more professional blower, like this one http://canfan.nl/cfrk150l.html. We would like to split our greenhouse in two later, to be able to rotate, separate the new blocks from older blocks, minimize cross-contamination.


--------------------
-----

Visit our blog and our oyster farm on FB


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Invisiblesolarity
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Re: Ventilation setup for small commercial cultivation [Re: popok]
    #23742978 - 10/16/16 03:42 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Per room One 150mm 85m3/hr fan in, one out. EDIT Doh! 240m3/hr

I have around 2T of sub/room - but not all fruiting at once. I just keep rolling over the substrate, complete clean out about 3x year but a regular hose and good care to remove any dead mushrooms.. and put up with the gnats in the summer (plus lots of sticky traps).

Air exchange needed depends on species, temperature and density of fill.


--------------------
Commercial exotics farmer for 8 years - now sold up!


Edited by solarity (10/20/16 04:11 PM)


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Invisiblemicelio
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Re: Ventilation setup for small commercial cultivation [Re: solarity]
    #23744140 - 10/16/16 10:48 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Hey..! popok

You may want to consider something like this for good ventilation air exchange and adding humidity at the same time.....

Mine hangs on my grow room wall...




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Offlinepopok
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Re: Ventilation setup for small commercial cultivation [Re: solarity]
    #23744395 - 10/17/16 03:04 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Solarity, wow only 83m3/h(48CFM) for each 2 tons of substrate and 300sqft(30m2) ! There is something wrong or I don't understand correctly your numbers. It is so low compared the air flow recommended by stamets. Also, in my old setup, I was providing much more airflow (330m3/h in, 180m3/h out, with only polyfill filters) with a third of space and a fourth of substrate than you do, and I was having trouble with CO2. How do you explain that ? How much ppm do you have in the greenhouse ?

is there some photos of your setup somewhere ?

Micelio, I have seen this type of humidifiers, it looks nice but I can't find this type of pads here. Anyway, I am not convinced it is better than the ultrasound mist maker I use. Correct me if I am wrong. Your first post about this oyster strain is kind of irrelevant.


--------------------
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Offlinefrog48
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Re: Ventilation setup for small commercial cultivation [Re: popok]
    #23744453 - 10/17/16 04:07 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Hi Solarity, how do you handle the sporeload of these oysters? You got an aditional fan running to pull out the spores, or do the bathroom fans handle with that as well? Sorry for squatting your thread Popok but I got similar questions and problems.


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Invisiblesolarity
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Re: Ventilation setup for small commercial cultivation [Re: frog48]
    #23748284 - 10/18/16 08:56 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

First of all - as I mentioned - if you put ANY kind of filter in front of one of those bathroom wall fans you will get very, very little airflow, I mean almost zero -so completely ignore the free airflow numbers, you are not getting it, or anything like it.
Get some smoke test pellets if you want to find out what you are actually getting - which will be somewhere between very little and Fk all.

2T of sub but only around 250kg is fruiting at any one time.

Frog

The fan blowing out gets a direct water jet from a hose every few days to keep the spores off the blades... and replaced once or twice a year!

No idea on actual CO2 I just go by the growth - different stains are more or less sensitive.


--------------------
Commercial exotics farmer for 8 years - now sold up!


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Offlinepopok
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Re: Ventilation setup for small commercial cultivation [Re: solarity]
    #23751566 - 10/19/16 10:12 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

No problem frog48, you are welcome.

Thanks again solarity for all these details. Very nice idea, the water jet cleaning of the fan, I will try to implement it. I guess your fans are not waterproof but the water does not reach the electrical part. How do you collect the dirty water ?

Especially for our lungs, I am planning also to clean the air itself with automatic spraying from the roof of the greenhouse and inside a bucket with forced ventilation. does you think it is a good idea ? anyone tried ?

I like the idea of no filtration at all. I would be glad even to open the windows. My ultimate goal is to grow outdoor commercially one day, with only natural means of control, embrace nature. We've been commercially growing for 18 months, but so much still to learn, about growing and marketing. I dont feel yet ready to remove totally the filtration. I wil get, at night, nightmares with trich and gnats invading everywhere...:wink: Maybe next year. Solarity, how long are you been commercially growing ? How do you handle the learning curve ?

My compromise for now is to use a bigger blower for the greenhouse with an air cleaner carbon-hepa filter I estimate at 100pa, cheap and low pressure, the one I use already for our spawn lab : https://www.amazon.com/Genuine-Electrolux-EL048-Cleaner-ELAP30D7PW/dp/B00M3TCL4O/ref=pd_sim_201_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=T29FY0R7P79W425TREYC, https://www.amazon.com/Electrolux-EL047-Genuine-Cleaner-Filters/dp/B00M3TCKXG/ref=pd_sim_201_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=T29FY0R7P79W425TREYC, http://media.wix.com/ugd/2bab21_23a9ffc1641140779b0b2dddb88bc92a.pdf.



I get your point, bathroom extractors can't stand pressure. Mine are these 15cm(6inch) and 12cm(5inch) sOerre fans: http://media.wix.com/ugd/2bab21_23a9ffc1641140779b0b2dddb88bc92a.pdf. In my setup, one was slowed by the polyfill filter and the humidifier bucket, when the other was slowed by the spore deposit on the wings and the grid. They drop to 0 m3/h at only 60pa. Still I think that your fans must be similar and give something like 300h3/h (175CFM), because 85m3/h(50CFM) is really for smaller fans like 9cm(3.5inch). Are you sure about this number ?


I am a bit confused about your proportion of fruiting substrate. Are you suggesting that non fruiting blocking suck less O2 than fruiting ones ? How much time do you keep each block in the greenhouse ? In our setup, we only keep them two months, so about 25-40% of this time, 2-3 weeks, they are fruiting.


Edited by popok (10/19/16 10:24 AM)


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Invisiblesolarity
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Re: Ventilation setup for small commercial cultivation [Re: popok]
    #23751664 - 10/19/16 10:56 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

You are probably right on the fan size I use all 6"/150mm ones so two of whatever flow rate they are.
As long as the fans are on the spinning keeps the water off the motor, I hose down the whole room and it runs into my central drains. Take the grids off!

I have been growing commercially for about 6-7years. It's tough, even when you think you have it figured out the seasons change or you start to grow more and run into a whole bunch of problems you never knew existed,
I just trebled my volume and that has been an intense 6 months - and - for example - I still can't figure out why my yellow yield has gone from 19% to less than 3% when I have not changed anything.

At the moment I am simplifying and consolidating. I use 1 method to grow a few varieties - you can lose a lot of money "experimenting".

You need to appreciate that "Shit builds up" and what works small for a short period does not work big for a long time.

Always wear a mask. Always. No excuses.

Up to you but if you want an immediate, cheap fix to your problem take off the grids and the filter! Run your lights during the day so you don't attract flies to the light.

Exactly, less CO2 produced during non fruiting - plus you don't care as there is no fruit for high CO2 to affect!

Same as me about 2 months  then "outside" (shade and water) until they are off to compost.

EDIT checked the fan spec as I had to buy a couple today, they are 240m3/hr


--------------------
Commercial exotics farmer for 8 years - now sold up!


Edited by solarity (10/20/16 04:25 PM)


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