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spikeycloud
Truth seeker

Registered: 11/22/11
Posts: 254
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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Not being your thoughts, cannot make changes sober.
#23730769 - 10/12/16 10:28 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hi as many here, have a couple of trips below their belt, you probably know that you are not the person you thought you were. Heck, you are not even your thoughts at all. A lot of people see this as liberating in a way that you can shape yourself for the better which is of course a good thing,
For me however, this knowledge has not made me better…in fact it has made me feeling worse many times. This has two reasons. First of all (problem 1) I experience not much control at all to change the self. It feels to me that it is a negative movie that takes you over a lot of times without control. Like automatic bad thoughts or associations which you know are not true but you are still experience them with the bad emotions coupled with that. That this happens a lot with me is frustrating to say at least. An example of this are that I know I should not think certain thoughts in situation A but I still do that when I’m in situation A. Also another problem is that those negative auto associations can be very random as well. So it kinda feels that I can never implement the changed learned in the psy experience sober.
The second problem that I have, even if I managed to change the thoughts to automatic positive ones. I still know they are not me so how can I ever get gratification out of it? These are problems that are in my head all of the time and I’m wondering if you guys have some pointers to tackle this. I realize it might be possible that problem 1 keeps problem 2 alive and vice versa. But that still does not change it.
I’m already doing a lot of stuff to live in the moment like study Ekchart tolle, meditate watching a lot of positive self-improvement movies. But I kinda feel stuck with the problems as described above.
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wolf8312
Pennywise


Registered: 10/01/12
Posts: 2,356
Last seen: 4 days, 11 hours
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Re: Not being your thoughts, cannot make changes sober. [Re: spikeycloud]
#23730854 - 10/12/16 10:54 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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What kind of bad thoughts? Nasty filthy sexy type thoughts?
I dont really know what you mean do you mean to say thoughts of harming self or others? Death? Be a little more specific if you can.
What you have written above seems a little disjointed somehow though I wonder if thats maybe a symptom of whatever this condition you have is. Do you find that your thoughts have become almost painfully or too scarily vivid? Like your thoughts are able to influence your behaviour?
-------------------- "I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of." Pennywise the dancing clown
Edited by wolf8312 (10/12/16 11:44 AM)
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rider420
Ghost in the machine


Registered: 02/11/16
Posts: 659
Last seen: 4 months, 7 days
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Re: Not being your thoughts, cannot make changes sober. [Re: wolf8312]
#23730882 - 10/12/16 11:02 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Fake it until it works. The only real control you have over the world is how you react to it. there are rich people who could have anything money can buy yet are not happy there are poor people with nothing who have more joy in one day then others have in a year.
Perhaps you need a really bad trip! I used to fear people judging me but after a 7 gram bad and mean fucking bad trip I see people fearful of me judging them weird but true. But that said the real changes I've made in my life is by faking it until its real kind of like reverse religion.
Best of luck buddy and remember the seemly impossible happens every day.
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spikeycloud
Truth seeker

Registered: 11/22/11
Posts: 254
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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Re: Not being your thoughts, cannot make changes sober. [Re: wolf8312]
#23731289 - 10/12/16 01:31 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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@wolf
They are not a fixed set of thoughts. It is just that neutral sitaution can change into something randomly negative. Like that people think bad of me or negative projections in the future. Like when I see someone working in a shop I think how bad would I feel if I were in his shoes feeling like this.
Another problem is that I have thoughts about my thoughts also. Like that I shouldn't have those thoughts. It becomes sometimes a maze with no way out.
The thoughts with sexual experiences are the worst. I'm then constantly thinking do I feel enough? Do I enjoy it enough? Does she enjoy it enough? And then again I'm judging myself thinking like that. and not thinking this is wonderful and why can't I focus on the pleasure etc. And after that the whole thing start over. And this really frustrates me.
I have some good experiences with 4-HO-MET combined with 4-FA and/or 3-FA that I could walk trough the layers of thoughts and really enjoy the experience. But those sessions are very taxing on the body and makes my thoughts even worse the days/weeks after.
I hope that made a bit more sense :P
Edited by spikeycloud (10/12/16 01:34 PM)
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wolf8312
Pennywise


Registered: 10/01/12
Posts: 2,356
Last seen: 4 days, 11 hours
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Re: Not being your thoughts, cannot make changes sober. [Re: spikeycloud]
#23731419 - 10/12/16 02:21 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yeah discontinue the psychedelics and stop smoking cannabis if you are taking these things and see how that helps.
You seem to be worrying about absolutely everything but one cant tell a man whos thinking too much to stop thinking as that will only make him think more and you cant tell a man whos worrying to stop worrying as he will just start worrying about how much he is worrying! Your mental state seems to be breeding negativity in a rather psychotic/demonic manner. You need to break the cycle and stop thinking.
Honestly dude you're afraid but maybe you havent really isolated what you are truly afraid of.
If its something seriously harming your mental state then seek professional help, but if you feel its under control but just bothersome practice yoga or meditation maybe. Learn to stop thinking and turn off your thoughts.
-------------------- "I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of." Pennywise the dancing clown
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Ziu
Stranger


Registered: 09/12/16
Posts: 40
Last seen: 6 years, 1 month
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Re: Not being your thoughts, cannot make changes sober. [Re: spikeycloud]
#23733020 - 10/13/16 01:39 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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What if thoughts are just thoughts and you don't have to try stop thinking or turn off your thoughts. Just let them come and go, not forcing to change anything.
Making it easier not to identify with your thoughts you could try practising simple mindfulness, for example focusing in your breath. It is very easy to get lost in that mind chatter but with little practice it is also easy to be found with coming back to breath attention or sensations in your body.
Thoughts of many kind are just thoughts like snowflakes in warm early winter day, even if there is heavy thick rain they are almost immediatly melting away.
Just breathe. Much love!
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sprinkles
otd president


Registered: 10/13/12
Posts: 21,527
Loc: washington state
Last seen: 3 years, 17 days
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Re: Not being your thoughts, cannot make changes sober. [Re: spikeycloud]
#23733034 - 10/13/16 02:00 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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"I think therefore I am"
if you constantly tell yourself you're a stupid bitch, you're going to be a stupid bitch. Opposite of that if you can say "im loving, loyal, compassionate, smart" blah blah blah then you'll believe that. As a child I learned to do something called "thought stopping." unfortunately on top of that I would constantly wish that I could forget things. Well if you wish for something hard enough, often times you'll get it. They teach that (thought stopping) as a coping mechanism in rehab also. I try it sometimes but not enough for it to be effective.
back in my drinking days I would get repetitive thought loops A LOT. Id get stuck in repetitive negative thought patterns. Fuck I hated it. I still get songs stuck in my head for a week sometimes but its not every day like it used to be.
i hate living in bondage. of any kind.
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spikeycloud
Truth seeker

Registered: 11/22/11
Posts: 254
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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Re: Not being your thoughts, cannot make changes sober. [Re: sprinkles]
#23788500 - 10/31/16 12:47 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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I try to be positeve as much as I can but that is not always easy. I think the biggest problem is that the not being the thoughts thing - is making me feeling not real if you know what you mean and I find this very idea disturbing to say at least.
I'm often judging my thoughts as well. Like damnit why did I think that I should not do that. I know I should not do this - but it sometimes feels this goes automatically as well. it is kinda hard for me to let go because I feel those not helping thought always comes back somehow.
Edited by spikeycloud (10/31/16 12:49 PM)
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,659
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Re: Not being your thoughts, cannot make changes sober. [Re: spikeycloud]
#23788600 - 10/31/16 01:25 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Here is a time tested practice and discipline , one of a few. Takes alot of studying and daily practice sometimes years sometimes less, regardless its a life style and on going with no end, hence the term practice.
This is more the Meat of what Tolle doesnt go into. Tolle is very general but not without merit. Supplemental to it and noble - this is one ancient teaching from which Tolle took much influence before he had his breakthrough. Although lay people do follow it , it is generally for more serious practitioners of teaching of the awakened ones aka for Monastics.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-samadhi/index.html
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
Edited by The Blind Ass (10/31/16 01:32 PM)
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thebug76
2 years in.



Registered: 05/31/15
Posts: 557
Loc: North of the equater and ...
Last seen: 3 months, 26 days
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Re: Not being your thoughts, cannot make changes sober. [Re: The Blind Ass]
#23789237 - 10/31/16 05:06 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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I used to have the same, or at least a really similar problem. A good friend of mine gave me this advice, "you can't exactly control the thoughts that pop into your head, but what you can control is how you react to those thoughts." After that, my problems with it went away because he was right 100%.
-------------------- Bug
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spikeycloud
Truth seeker

Registered: 11/22/11
Posts: 254
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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Re: Not being your thoughts, cannot make changes sober. [Re: thebug76]
#23792181 - 11/01/16 05:29 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Hmm will put that in my phone thank you
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Jiemba
Shamanaut Australis


Registered: 02/17/16
Posts: 37
Last seen: 5 years, 7 months
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Re: Not being your thoughts, cannot make changes sober. [Re: spikeycloud]
#23793598 - 11/02/16 02:13 AM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
"you can't exactly control the thoughts that pop into your head, but what you can control is how you react to those thoughts."
Even reactions are thoughts themselves, so I don't see that as helpful advice at all. Feelings and reactions are just another more primal, deeper form of mind-chatter, so you can let them come and go and not identify with them as much as the more complex reaction-inducing thoughts.
Realise that while yes, you are just the watcher, you are also the tuner, the DJ, the salience-amplifier. You can't control which thoughts make it to the surface, but you can choose which to amplify (to encourage their repitition) or you can dampen their salience (let them slip away and be forgotten).
Even a deep melancholy, or a feeling of dissociation from reality, are feeling-chatters, and while they may feel hard to escape from at first, the experience of this post making it to the surface is also outside your control and yet you can start amplifying and repeating this thought-seed RIGHT NOW. Introspect on the feeling and "if I don't like what I'm feeling, and it's not useful" then "I'll tune into, and amplify the salience of something more useful" ... and then start thinking about your breath until the depression/dissociation fades away.
While it's fresh in your mind: write notes around your house, on your hand, make a background for your computer, turn it into a meme and a game (every time you think of the game you lose the game a.k.a. Don't Think of The Pink Elephant) then harness that meme for inducing breath-mindfulness. Tune into the breathwork every time you lose the Pink Elephant game until you've dampened the feeling-chatter you're tuning out of. You'll get new thoughts eventually, and you'll learn to amplify the salience of the ones that are useful.
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spikeycloud
Truth seeker

Registered: 11/22/11
Posts: 254
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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Re: Not being your thoughts, cannot make changes sober. [Re: Jiemba]
#23797531 - 11/03/16 12:38 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yeah they are thoughts yes, but I think you can react (respond) in a certain way that is more beneficial for you and the other person if someone else is involved.
For an example, a problem that I have – is that I get very quick a negative reaction in myself when someone does something stupid in traffic. Instead of getting angry on that person and calling him an idiot – you can also react in a more constructive way. I can’t always do that and my emotions win a lot of the times – but I think it is a pretty good practice not go get taken over by a negative though pattern.
When I’m on low doses of psychedelics (esp 2C-C D B or I) – I often can do this a lot easier because those negative patterns do seem to have less pull on me. Still do not understand why it is harder sober.
Edited by spikeycloud (11/03/16 12:40 PM)
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birdeatingspider
Stranger in Paradise



Registered: 12/18/14
Posts: 2,994
Loc: so many roads
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Re: Not being your thoughts, cannot make changes sober. [Re: spikeycloud]
#23798686 - 11/03/16 06:46 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Using psychedelics instills the dissolution of ego, with the spacing in between trips being critical. It is crucial that you assimilate your experiences in order to grow as a being, otherwise psychs can have quite the opposite effect on the gray matter of consciousness. My suggestion would be to practice mindfulness and self appreciation.
This entails noticing thoughts without attachment, acceptance without judgement. Avoid construction of a label to your thoughts such as 'good', 'bad' 'strange', 'wrong', etc.
Do you judge others, verbal or mentally? Judge others, judge yourself. It's toxic and will result in what you are experiencing. Otherwise, if you don¹t, why is everyone spared but you are critical of yourself? The bright side is that you have the power to liberate yourself.
Acceptance is purely noticing, it doesn't mean you have to like something. Just like in meditation, if you realize that you're trapped in a loop or judging a thought, gently bring yourself back to a state of peace without thinking 'i messed up', or 'i can't get it right'. Do this with any feeling, thought, behavior, anything that you experience.
It's not easy, but tranquility is well worth the effort. It takes two months of practice before a habit is engrained into our being. This is where being kind to yourself comes in.
Knowing that this is difficult, that no one is perfect, and happiness takes hard work is what consciousness is all about. Remember that serenity resides in the present moment, you got this
--------------------
From all I may be, or have been before, To mingle with the Universe, and feel What I can ne’er express, yet cannot all conceal.
Edited by birdeatingspider (11/03/16 06:57 PM)
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