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277volt808
Registered: 10/02/16
Posts: 249
Last seen: 1 month, 6 days
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PMP. Sorry about the dead horse but...
#23728898 - 10/11/16 05:23 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I've been lurking for a while now. I was looking at FC's and explored the history of the PMP and understand the general consensus on it now. It's commonly regarded as an inferior design bested by the SGFC and others. Am I correct? I have zero experience in the hobby but was wondering what exactly was the problem? From what I found, PMP's achilles heel lied in the fact that it was hard to tune, mostly due to the problems of poor FAE or RH. As more moving air is introduced to get better FAE, the RH will drop based off the PMP design. Is this correct?
What if a PMP was built that had a big air pump pumping from a separate chamber- humidified chamber?

I know the SGFC works well but I think the PMP has some distinct advantages.
Price of build lister: 5 Gallon Bucket-------------$5 Hydroton(1lb)---------------$10 Perlite(8Quart)-------------$5 40G Air Pump----------------$13 Air Line/Valve--------------$5 1.5G Plastic Pitcher--------$10(Probably can be cheaper) 12 LED Aquarium Clip Light--$12 ______________________________________ Total-----------------------$62
Don't roast me if I'm way off on the PMP. I know the idea has been tested many times and just didn't stand up to other methods. Like I said, I like the advantages of the design and was wondering what some of your input would be.
-------------------- Fav Threads: Stories from the Psychedelic Underground (dwpineal) My LSD Trip That Lasted 8 Months (dwpineal) The "THUMBPRINT" (Learyfan)
I think not to wander so far down the path that we can't find our way back. -Northerner
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Llwr


Registered: 08/11/16
Posts: 92
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Re: PMP. Sorry about the dead horse but... [Re: 277volt808]
#23728918 - 10/11/16 05:28 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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just build a sgfc dude
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: PMP. Sorry about the dead horse but... [Re: 277volt808] 1
#23728923 - 10/11/16 05:29 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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There is no greater advantage to not suffocating your mushrooms. Apparently if you build a PMP with 2 airstones it works better but personally I find passive systems to be easier. Dicking around with filling shit and fiddling with stuff gets old.
Best system for cubes are monotubs. Spend your time actually growing instead of dialing in a finicky system.
My
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Munchauzen


Registered: 06/22/11
Posts: 14,342
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Re: PMP. Sorry about the dead horse but... [Re: 277volt808]
#23728934 - 10/11/16 05:33 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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sgfc or monotub. not sure what advantages you think a pmp has, I don't think it has any. its costly and performs poorly.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: PMP. Sorry about the dead horse but... [Re: Munchauzen]
#23728948 - 10/11/16 05:38 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't know what advantages, someone who doesn't know what mushrooms want, could think the PMP has
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wildernessjunkie
Reshitivest


Registered: 06/13/10
Posts: 8,118
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Re: PMP. Sorry about the dead horse but... [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23728957 - 10/11/16 05:41 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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The whole process has been simplified over a hell of a lot of trial and error. The solutions are simpler than you are trying to make them. More equipment/processes only ends in more work with negligible improvement.
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Bernard
Cultvr - Not Necessarily Trusted



Registered: 05/08/16
Posts: 226
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Quote:
wildernessjunkie said:

The whole process has been simplified over a hell of a lot of trial and error. The solutions are simpler than you are trying to make them. More equipment/processes only ends in more work with negligible improvement.
I'm a noob, but I agree. I spent some time with fish bubblers and cool mist humidifiers. They are not needed. A SGFC works great. For cubes, I don't think you can beat the cost, simplicity, and functionality.
I'm speaking about growing cakes. If you are going bulk, that might be a different story.
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277volt808
Registered: 10/02/16
Posts: 249
Last seen: 1 month, 6 days
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Re: PMP. Sorry about the dead horse but... [Re: Bernard]
#23729020 - 10/11/16 06:05 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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The main advantage I thought of might be if someone wanted a FC that didn't need to be in the middle of the room (open air), a PMP can go anywhere in that the fresh air is "piped in".
My hobby experience is in salt water reef tank, hydroponics, and I'm decent with electronics so I wasn't deterred in making things "complicated" if it could meet the needs of semi-automation and able to be confined.
MOst importantly, I was interested in what specifically were the problems with PMP's?
-------------------- Fav Threads: Stories from the Psychedelic Underground (dwpineal) My LSD Trip That Lasted 8 Months (dwpineal) The "THUMBPRINT" (Learyfan)
I think not to wander so far down the path that we can't find our way back. -Northerner
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tump
ban the undead



Registered: 03/17/16
Posts: 2,383
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
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Re: PMP. Sorry about the dead horse but... [Re: 277volt808]
#23729076 - 10/11/16 06:27 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Lack of fresh air moving all around the cakes. The noise that decreases the stealthily hiden tub. Decreases the pin count which means less goodness. Just grow the cakes and then spawn them to coir in a monotub or fruit them in sgfc. But you might on your second batch with 25% more brf to spawn to coir. Best results for any automated system i saw cost the guy about 400 bucks which made a fully automated martha that held 350 pint size cakes.
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c10h12n2o
serial dilutor



Registered: 01/21/15
Posts: 3,200
Loc: the abyss
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Re: PMP. Sorry about the dead horse but... [Re: tump]
#23729123 - 10/11/16 06:44 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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if you wanna see a sweet automated room, check out azure's bulletproof (but not flood-proof) grow room
a lot of people start with stuff like kits and PMPs, but those that end up being successful quickly move on to something more reliable and less finnicky
pasty's 2 cents is right on the money, build a monotub
monotubs are the tried and true way to grow cubes with the least trouble. nothing wrong with "complicated" if it serves a purpose, but simplicity is better if you can accomplish the same thing (or better)
save complicated for after you have the basics down, unless you have a very high tolerance for failure
--------------------
  C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide "Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing." "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" ― Friedrich Nietzsche
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277volt808
Registered: 10/02/16
Posts: 249
Last seen: 1 month, 6 days
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Re: PMP. Sorry about the dead horse but... [Re: tump]
#23729130 - 10/11/16 06:46 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thanks for the feedback! So the lack of FAE is the drawback of PMP and it's over-complicated compared to more simple, effective designs.
So if there was limited space like a cabinet of a fish tank for instance. What would be better than that PMP design above? Stealth isn't a big deal, just eyesore factor.
-------------------- Fav Threads: Stories from the Psychedelic Underground (dwpineal) My LSD Trip That Lasted 8 Months (dwpineal) The "THUMBPRINT" (Learyfan)
I think not to wander so far down the path that we can't find our way back. -Northerner
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mushboy
modboy



Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 32,281
Loc: where?
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Re: PMP. Sorry about the dead horse but... [Re: c10h12n2o]
#23729141 - 10/11/16 06:49 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
c10h12n2o said: azure's bulletproof (but not flood-proof) grow room
not cool.
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277volt808
Registered: 10/02/16
Posts: 249
Last seen: 1 month, 6 days
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Re: PMP. Sorry about the dead horse but... [Re: c10h12n2o]
#23729164 - 10/11/16 06:55 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Very cool. Pretty much a biodome!
So for suitcases, closets, boxes, cupboards, and any boogey-man type area, the vote is monotub?
-------------------- Fav Threads: Stories from the Psychedelic Underground (dwpineal) My LSD Trip That Lasted 8 Months (dwpineal) The "THUMBPRINT" (Learyfan)
I think not to wander so far down the path that we can't find our way back. -Northerner
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277volt808
Registered: 10/02/16
Posts: 249
Last seen: 1 month, 6 days
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Just thought I'd throw this one out there too [Re: 277volt808]
#23729179 - 10/11/16 06:59 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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The gears are turning tonight fellas
-------------------- Fav Threads: Stories from the Psychedelic Underground (dwpineal) My LSD Trip That Lasted 8 Months (dwpineal) The "THUMBPRINT" (Learyfan)
I think not to wander so far down the path that we can't find our way back. -Northerner
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Munchauzen


Registered: 06/22/11
Posts: 14,342
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Re: Just thought I'd throw this one out there too [Re: 277volt808] 1
#23729198 - 10/11/16 07:04 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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no. there is nothing you can do to improve any fruiting chamber. just pick one and build it to spec. pumping air into an sgfc would ruin how it functions. read more.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: PMP. Sorry about the dead horse but... [Re: 277volt808] 1
#23729211 - 10/11/16 07:11 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
277volt808 said: just eyesore factor.
An eyesore to me is a substrate with no mushrooms on it.
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277volt808
Registered: 10/02/16
Posts: 249
Last seen: 1 month, 6 days
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Re: Just thought I'd throw this one out there too [Re: Munchauzen]
#23729220 - 10/11/16 07:14 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Munchauzen said: pumping air into an sgfc would ruin how it functions. read more.
That last one was a joke lol. The air was being pumped from the SGFC.
I was trying to loosen the mood. I wanted to know why and what I've deduced from several members is that FAE is "weak" with PMP's
-------------------- Fav Threads: Stories from the Psychedelic Underground (dwpineal) My LSD Trip That Lasted 8 Months (dwpineal) The "THUMBPRINT" (Learyfan)
I think not to wander so far down the path that we can't find our way back. -Northerner
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277volt808
Registered: 10/02/16
Posts: 249
Last seen: 1 month, 6 days
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Re: PMP. Sorry about the dead horse but... [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23729250 - 10/11/16 07:23 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said:
Quote:
277volt808 said: just eyesore factor.
An eyesore to me is a substrate with no mushrooms on it.
Nice one! lol.
Seriously though, I was wondering why the FAE was bad on PMP's- if that's the only problem. I was thinking for a FC made for a confined space. Like a cupboard.
I saw the 2 Liter FC's and was thinking, "Could there be made something a little bigger and in the style of a PMP"- hence the design at the beginning of the post.
-------------------- Fav Threads: Stories from the Psychedelic Underground (dwpineal) My LSD Trip That Lasted 8 Months (dwpineal) The "THUMBPRINT" (Learyfan)
I think not to wander so far down the path that we can't find our way back. -Northerner
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c10h12n2o
serial dilutor



Registered: 01/21/15
Posts: 3,200
Loc: the abyss
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Re: PMP. Sorry about the dead horse but... [Re: 277volt808]
#23729278 - 10/11/16 07:32 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said:
Quote:
277volt808 said: just eyesore factor.
An eyesore to me is a substrate with no mushrooms on it.
amen to that my pasty brother
Quote:
277volt808 said:So the lack of FAE is the drawback of PMP and it's over-complicated compared to more simple, effective designs
exactly. btw munch is spot on about that there is nothing you can do to improve any fruiting chamber, that is really good advice and there is more than a little wisdom in it. a fruiting chamber is a crutch, one way or another, its just to make things easier for US not for the myc, and overcomplicating things means more things that can go wrong
many new growers are obsessed with humidity to the exclusion of FAE, though FAE and microclimate evaporation are key
as for your question, a monotub is probably ideal, but i have personally been having tremendous success lately with otto buckets like this thread. i have been getting 450-750 grams off of first flushes in little utility pails with 1 quart of grain spawn, hpoo/coir/straw/gypsum/verm, and a shower cap on top. this is very portable, and easy to put up when you dont want to look at it (although i am willing to bet once you have a tub/bucket fruiting you damn sure WILL want to look at it haha)
might work well for what you have in mind. also, rather than polyfil, lately i have just been doing them with micropore tape, as per pasty's dialed in micropore monotubs thread

--------------------
  C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide "Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing." "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" ― Friedrich Nietzsche
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: PMP. Sorry about the dead horse but... [Re: 277volt808] 1
#23729287 - 10/11/16 07:38 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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The real problem with PMP designs is that in order to pump more air, you need to bring in more humidity otherwise the chamber dries out. However in a horizontal configuration pumping in that much mist or saturated air results in over saturation of the sub, waterlogging it.
Automated designs are best suited to large rooms or vertical configurations where the surface area is maximized.
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277volt808
Registered: 10/02/16
Posts: 249
Last seen: 1 month, 6 days
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Re: PMP. Sorry about the dead horse but... [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23729291 - 10/11/16 07:42 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Right on. I understand pumping in the mist. But did you check out my first post with the picture diagram. It's pumping in 'humid air' from a separate chamber- the bucket with Perlite. What do you think about that idea specifically?
-------------------- Fav Threads: Stories from the Psychedelic Underground (dwpineal) My LSD Trip That Lasted 8 Months (dwpineal) The "THUMBPRINT" (Learyfan)
I think not to wander so far down the path that we can't find our way back. -Northerner
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NDStepp84
Stellar nuclear waste


Registered: 04/23/15
Posts: 4,956
Last seen: 1 month, 4 days
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Re: PMP. Sorry about the dead horse but... [Re: 277volt808] 1
#23729310 - 10/11/16 07:50 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
277volt808 said: The main advantage I thought of might be if someone wanted a FC that didn't need to be in the middle of the room (open air), a PMP can go anywhere in that the fresh air is "piped in".
My hobby experience is in salt water reef tank, hydroponics, and I'm decent with electronics so I wasn't deterred in making things "complicated" if it could meet the needs of semi-automation and able to be confined.
MOst importantly, I was interested in what specifically were the problems with PMP's?
Usually the biggest problem with noobs and automated systems is they have no idea what mushrooms want. They think things like constant high chamber humidity are important, drown and suffocate them. You want constant evaporation from the surface, this doesn't happen very well in a constant high rh environment or sealed box. An experienced grower knowing about proper surface conditions could have better results with no chamber at all. Fuck chamber rh and  still high from my surgery
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"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. -Robert A. Heinlein
Links and teks ND's grow log and discussion Plant thread
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: PMP. Sorry about the dead horse but... [Re: 277volt808] 1
#23729317 - 10/11/16 07:54 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
277volt808 said: Right on. I understand pumping in the mist. But did you check out my first post with the picture diagram. It's pumping in 'humid air' from a separate chamber- the bucket with Perlite. What do you think about that idea specifically?
You are the 10,000th person to suggest that. Giver a try, and report back. The thousands before you never seem to report back with results.
Seriously we see 1000 of these a year. Complete with diagrams illustrating the chamber etc. Seriously this exact thread comes up many many times a year.
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277volt808
Registered: 10/02/16
Posts: 249
Last seen: 1 month, 6 days
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Re: PMP. Sorry about the dead horse but... [Re: NDStepp84]
#23729389 - 10/11/16 08:21 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
NDStepp84 said: You want constant evaporation from the surface, this doesn't happen very well in a constant high rh environment or sealed box.
So a SGFC 'fluctuates' with the room conditions. Correct? I for instance keep the house at 77 degrees 24/7. What room conditions are changing?
I will try to research more of what mushrooms want. Thanks bud.
-------------------- Fav Threads: Stories from the Psychedelic Underground (dwpineal) My LSD Trip That Lasted 8 Months (dwpineal) The "THUMBPRINT" (Learyfan)
I think not to wander so far down the path that we can't find our way back. -Northerner
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Llwr


Registered: 08/11/16
Posts: 92
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Re: PMP. Sorry about the dead horse but... [Re: 277volt808]
#23729403 - 10/11/16 08:25 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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NDStepp84
Stellar nuclear waste


Registered: 04/23/15
Posts: 4,956
Last seen: 1 month, 4 days
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Re: PMP. Sorry about the dead horse but... [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23729442 - 10/11/16 08:39 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Sgfc's create their own air currents, air is constantly being exchanged up through the perlite and out the top and sides. The only rh that really matters is on the surface of the cakes, which is achieved by misting until cakes glisten with fine beads of moisture repeat when they have evaporated. You get this down you're good. As said chambers are for our benefit so we don't have to mist constantly, a sgfc strikes a good balance of fresh air, evaporation and low maintenance, just have to mist 2-3 times a day on average depending on area conditions.
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"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. -Robert A. Heinlein
Links and teks ND's grow log and discussion Plant thread
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277volt808
Registered: 10/02/16
Posts: 249
Last seen: 1 month, 6 days
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Re: PMP. Sorry about the dead horse but... [Re: 277volt808]
#23729458 - 10/11/16 08:47 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thanks again NDStepp84.
I do remember reading about the fluctuating dew point to allow evaporation from the surface.
I can see how people would see PMP's as being inferior to other methods in the fact that you have to add extra systems just to meet the standard of what's already simplified. I still like the idea of not having to have a tub in the middle of the room. I would say it's a matter of what fits the situation.
I like making automated set ups. I made a dual-system 100 gallon ebb and flow hydro set up 2 years ago. Automated lights and pumps. Brewed my own benificial bacteria tea and all. Supplementing hydro set ups with your own 'brewed' bacteria isn't a common practice; most people choose the other route: H202 and frequent water changes. I was able to combine some experience with other hobbies and try the less beaten path to success. I've also been doing reef tanks for about 10 years and that's another brilliant community. Anything that involves lighting, water, nutrients, and crazy parameters ready to swing into outer-space at the drop of a hat- I'm about that.
That's why I was more interested in the WHY of PMP's being frowned upon. And yes Pastywhyte, I'm sure 1000 people came up with the idea to throw in some timers and fluctuate the RH. Am I right? Just don't get annoyed. It's interesting to us noobs and we're not all dumb idiots spinnin the hottest flavor of the second.
-------------------- Fav Threads: Stories from the Psychedelic Underground (dwpineal) My LSD Trip That Lasted 8 Months (dwpineal) The "THUMBPRINT" (Learyfan)
I think not to wander so far down the path that we can't find our way back. -Northerner
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NDStepp84
Stellar nuclear waste


Registered: 04/23/15
Posts: 4,956
Last seen: 1 month, 4 days
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Re: PMP. Sorry about the dead horse but... [Re: 277volt808]
#23729508 - 10/11/16 09:11 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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If you really want to build your own system consider checking into green houses or automated rooms as said, you will have much better results than a pmp and give you something to build and tinker around with plus plenty of room to expand/ several projects. My guess you would build the pmp, get bored with it after a grow want to expand and build a greenhouse or something similar anyway
Tractor supply may have some small greenhouses on sale right now, they do here for like 14 bucks. I picked up a 10x7 for 40$ for my plants.
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"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. -Robert A. Heinlein
Links and teks ND's grow log and discussion Plant thread
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: PMP. Sorry about the dead horse but... [Re: NDStepp84] 1
#23729514 - 10/11/16 09:12 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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The really funny thing is every automatic automated setup is usually far less automated than a SGFC is let alone a monotub.
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NDStepp84
Stellar nuclear waste


Registered: 04/23/15
Posts: 4,956
Last seen: 1 month, 4 days
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Re: PMP. Sorry about the dead horse but... [Re: bodhisatta]
#23729541 - 10/11/16 09:24 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'd say definitely. Until someone invents a system with cameras and software to monitor and maintain surface conditions then it still would maybe just tie with a 7$ monotub at best lol.
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"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. -Robert A. Heinlein
Links and teks ND's grow log and discussion Plant thread
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MadSeasonStudent
Enjoying Life



Registered: 08/26/12
Posts: 758
Loc: Swinging on the spiral
Last seen: 8 days, 11 hours
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Re: PMP. Sorry about the dead horse but... [Re: c10h12n2o]
#23729910 - 10/11/16 11:18 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Dude holy shit thats awesome! 5 shrooms man!!! :mushroom2
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: PMP. Sorry about the dead horse but... [Re: 277volt808]
#23729938 - 10/11/16 11:29 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
277volt808 said: Right on. I understand pumping in the mist. But did you check out my first post with the picture diagram. It's pumping in 'humid air' from a separate chamber- the bucket with Perlite. What do you think about that idea specifically?
I think you should learn what mushrooms want first.
The idea you have about what they want and need isn't what they want and need
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c10h12n2o
serial dilutor



Registered: 01/21/15
Posts: 3,200
Loc: the abyss
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Re: PMP. Sorry about the dead horse but... [Re: bodhisatta]
#23730027 - 10/12/16 12:21 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: The really funny thing is every automatic automated setup is usually far less automated than a SGFC is let alone a monotub.
&&
I think you should learn what mushrooms want first.
The idea you have about what they want and need isn't what they want and need
+ everything pasty and NDstep84 said
many of us have been down similar paths of thought, and thats how we learned what we are telling you. and we have ALL seen countless threads where someone has to forcefully unlearn all their assumptions before they can make ANY progress, or they just never do
hell man, my first grow ever was built around lots of the same assumptions and needs: i hid a little PMP inside a wall of my RA's dorm (literally wired it into their wall). fortunately, i have learned a LOT since then, and find my all the assumptions i started with hilarious
--------------------
  C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide "Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing." "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" ― Friedrich Nietzsche
Edited by c10h12n2o (10/12/16 12:22 AM)
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Bernard
Cultvr - Not Necessarily Trusted



Registered: 05/08/16
Posts: 226
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Re: PMP. Sorry about the dead horse but... [Re: bodhisatta]
#23731985 - 10/12/16 05:43 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think you should learn what mushrooms want first.
The idea you have about what they want and need isn't what they want and need
Sounds dumb, but it's true.....
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: PMP. Sorry about the dead horse but... [Re: Bernard]
#23732313 - 10/12/16 07:59 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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 I sounds dumb? Haha
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