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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Addiction Theory * 3
    #23721901 - 10/09/16 11:53 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

The popular modern concept of drug addiction theory is based on the disease model, that chemicals
change the brain and destroy one's free will and ability to make decisions. A common story is . . .
"I took my first hit of crack and was instantly addicted and couldn't stop."

But addicts make many choices and decisions around using every day. Millions of "alcoholics"
decide to be sober every week day, from the time they wake until 6 PM. Then they get drunk.

There's a large community of researchers, neurologists, psychologists, and behaviorists that
dispute the hypothesis that exposure to drugs and alcohol causes a loss of control.

Many successful recovery programs such as SMART deny modern addiction theory and the powerless
paradigm. There's a myriad of research studies, books, and websites that reject this popular perspective.

Frequently arsonists, rapists, food addicts, stalkers, obsessive gamblers, porn addicts, and
video game fiends "feel" they have no control of their behaviors, but is that true? Might
someone who concludes they've lost their free will be unaware they're making conscious decisions?

Wondering if anyone has studied the common phenomenon of "learned helplessness"...

It's a fascinating reason why the idea of "powerlessness" is so popular.

Like numerous popular perspectives today, many people have embraced the disease concept, that there's
something biologically defective and damaged with someone who falls in love with intoxication.

Of the many notable people leading this discussion, Stanton Peele is probably the most famous.

http://www.peele.net/lib/truth_1.html

http://www.thecleanslate.org/addicts-alcoholics-lose-control/


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23722184 - 10/09/16 01:09 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

William S. Burroughs, the famous and outstanding writer, was addicted to heroin for much of his life.  He said essentially that junk changed your whole soul, and that it warped your mind so much that all you cared about, 24/7, was how to score more junk.  He swore that willpower had nothing at all to do with it, and could only quit himself with the apomorphine treatment.

Quote:

“The question is frequently asked: Why does a man become a drug addict?

The answer is that he usually does not intend to become an addict. You don’t wake up one morning and decide to be a drug addict. It takes at least three months’ shooting twice a day to get any habit at all. And you don’t really know what junk sickness is until you have had several habits. It took me almost six months to get my first habit, and then the withdrawal symptoms were mild. I think it no exaggeration to say it takes about a year and several hundred injections to make an addict.

The questions, of course, could be asked: Why did you ever try narcotics? Why did you continue using it long enough to become an addict? You become a narcotics addict because you do not have strong motivations in the other direction. Junk wins by default. I tried it as a matter of curiosity. I drifted along taking shots when I could score. I ended up hooked. Most addicts I have talked to report a similar experience. They did not start using drugs for any reason they can remember. They just drifted along until they got hooked. If you have never been addicted, you can have no clear idea what it means to need junk with the addict’s special need. You don’t decide to be an addict. One morning you wake up sick and you’re an addict. (Junky, Prologue, p. xxxviii)”  ― William S. Burroughs, Junky




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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23722288 - 10/09/16 01:39 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Burroughs is demonstrating the common belief that drugs can destroy free will.

Whether we're talking about a craving for drugs, gambling, sex, or video games,
it's not the object of desire that causes obsession, but the experience itself.

When an experience causes exhilaration (cocaine, sex, meth, video games) or a sense of power (gambling)
or a sense of self-care and self soothing (shopping addiction and hoarding), it is the experience itself
that can create an ongoing desire (obsession). Not the object of the desire.

It's not the power of a casino that causes people to lose their home and their car and life savings.
It's the feeling associated with it. Which is a huge distinction.

A stalker is not driven by the person they stalk. They're driven by their feelings associated with the person.


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OfflineDuncan Rowhl
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23722351 - 10/09/16 01:57 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
It's not the power of a casino that causes people to lose their home and their car and life savings.
It's the feeling associated with it. Which is a huge distinction.




Isn't the 'power' what makes a casino able to evoke the feeling and thus what makes it a 'casino'?

Quote:


A stalker is not driven by the person they stalk. They're driven by their feelings associated with the person.




Likewise, isn't the quality of a person dictated by the emotions they evoke in us?

We judge them for their precursive quality in rendering the end product in us - the emotion.

It's why the following isn't just a word - 'Piping Hot, Pepperoni Pizza'. :wink:


Edited by Duncan Rowhl (10/09/16 02:03 PM)


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OfflineSleepyE
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #23722400 - 10/09/16 02:16 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I believe mind surpasses matter in this case.
I believe addiction is just a lack of self-control and has nothing to do with destroying your free will.
That's like saying cake is destroying my free will not to eat it.
Obese people have the same problem, they cant stop because they have no self restraint.

If someone has strengthened their willpower and self-control and has created a schedule or routine within themselves and how much they can indulge in something without it negatively impacting their health.

Strong willed people i believe are unlikely to have drugs change their sense of self-control and have it compromise their self preservation.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23722626 - 10/09/16 03:26 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I think addiction is just an over stimulated sympathetic nervous system and fight or flight response.
That's why entheogens help a lot of people to quit smoking, because they act as an antagonist on our instinctive functions.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23722769 - 10/09/16 04:17 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

What about chemical dependence, though?  The nicotine a smoker ingests feels good, yes.  But it also changes the chemical composition of the cells in his body to the point that the cells need to have the chemical in order to function properly.  That is the definition of chemical or physical addiction.  That has nothing whatever to do with how the substance makes you feel, except that your body rewards you for satisfying it.  Isn't that obvious?


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23722850 - 10/09/16 04:45 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Addiction is self control.  I use drugs to effect the control I have over my sense of self.  The problem is that the mind can only have so much awareness.  The cause and effect and dealing with every detail.  Sober people have their complications as well.  Either it's the opiate of religion, or telling awful jokes.  Everyone is going to be shaped by their past, their biology and I think choices are a small part of that.

The only addiction I really hated was crack.  I was a crackhead for one night.  I liked nothing about it.  I didn't like who I was with and nothing progressed.


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OfflineCory Duchesne
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23722853 - 10/09/16 04:47 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Opiates are a substitute for the mother or the girlfriend or guardian. With an opiate, you get the warm unconditional acceptance in a predictable way.  As long as you're not doing things that warrant paranoia and retribution, you can rely on the Mary Jane to make you comfortable before sleeping. Then you wake again to the same challenges you had the day before. 

Reminds me of a passage:


"It is easier to be a lover than a husband, for the same reason that it is more difficult to be witty every day, than to say bright things from time to time." (Part I, Meditation V: Of the Predestined, aphorism LXIX)


--------------------
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"I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud." - Carl Jung

Krishna, as his friends called him, freely admitted his compulsive lying. He blamed it on simple fear of having his deceptions detected." NOTES OF A FRINGE-WATCHER MARTIN GARDNER on J Krishnamurti

"All your questions are born out of the answers you already have. Any answer anybody gives should put an end to your questions. But it does not." [UG-K]


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: Cory Duchesne]
    #23722868 - 10/09/16 04:50 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

The last time I took an Oxycontin I got paranoid as fuck.  There was no dope to that experience. 

I used to think there was something easy to consciousness.  There was, I was young and that's easy.  But I mean I felt there was a system, an operation that could be spiritually overcame.  I've learned that there is no forward movement.  We are all guaranteed to lose our comforts.  Think of your worst trip and if you had comfort.  Even a shred of comfort.  Sooner or later even the bad feelings begin to comfort.  As long as you have that bad feeling there's something there predictable.  Something that won't leave.


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In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: Morel Guy]
    #23722891 - 10/09/16 05:01 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Modern methods of treating addiction are with other addictions that are healthy.  Hobbies and interests, education and helping other people.  They use a lot of pharmaceuticals and that's what got people interested in drugs to start with.


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In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23723211 - 10/09/16 06:49 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah comparing addiction to a disease is a scam IMO, if anything it has more in common with a symptom. And not limited to but the most likely disease associated with this symptom would be lack of self control. 


The thing that mystifies me, is why so many people would embrace the idea that addiction is a disease. It is bizarre.

There is a lot of compelling evidence that addiction is not a direct result of chemical dependence.

First most people who either suffer trauma or go through surgery that requires high of doses of opiates quit after their prescription ends, they don't become dependent.

And second the  Rat Park Experiment IMO, nullifies any animal studies that support the notion of addiction of animals without some loss of some normal interaction with other animals.

I would support a war on Behavorial Scientists and the elected scum that embraces the paradigm of addiction as a disease caused by  chemical dependence, as they're both in cahoots with the telephone sanitizers.


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23723229 - 10/09/16 06:55 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

It is a choice if you understand that it can change your chemistry and continue to use nicotine, you are not dependent.


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: falcon]
    #23723271 - 10/09/16 07:07 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Human psychology is dependent on many things.  What has power over you?  Surely many things


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: falcon]
    #23723316 - 10/09/16 07:18 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

falcon said:
It is a choice if you understand that it can change your chemistry and continue to use nicotine, you are not dependent.




Okay, but please realize that many people are not strong enough to quit very easily, and it's not their fault.  Are we not to have compassion for addicts in this thread?


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23723326 - 10/09/16 07:20 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Nobody ever gets sober.


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #23723356 - 10/09/16 07:29 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

If you point out to them that they have a choice rather than a disease, it is IMO, much more compassionate. There is a good bit of bureaucracy that is in the business of coddling those that are considered addicted, this is not compassion, this is a fruitless pursuit, to pad the pockets of those in public service, both by law enforcement and support services and private support services for those afflicted. Most people recover from this so called disease, they do so at a fairly predictable linear rate when looked at over a period of years, with or without assistance of health professionals.


Edited by falcon (10/09/16 07:34 PM)


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: Morel Guy]
    #23723372 - 10/09/16 07:32 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

If I know what has power over me, why can I not change it? if I can change it or it's relationship to me, am I dependent?


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: falcon]
    #23723382 - 10/09/16 07:35 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

falcon said:
If I know what has power over me, why can I not change it? if I can change it or it's relationship to me, am I dependent?




Because you know.  The worst thing that can happen to a person is knowing.  We can never in my understanding unknow something.  Even with Alzheimers can I think we unknow something.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: falcon]
    #23723419 - 10/09/16 07:44 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

falcon said:
If you point out to them that they have a choice rather than a disease, it is IMO, much more compassionate. There is a good bit of bureaucracy that is in the business of coddling those that are considered addicted, this is not compassion, this is a fruitless pursuit, to pad the pockets of those in public service, both by law enforcement and support services and private support services for those afflicted. Most people recover from this so called disease, they do so at a fairly predictable linear rate when looked at over a period of years, with or without assistance of health professionals.




So you feel addicts shouldn't have support?  Stiff upper lip?


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23723424 - 10/09/16 07:46 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Addiction is hard as hell and sobriety will never give the full grace when you are alive.

Nobody needs carried as much as a user.


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In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23723466 - 10/09/16 08:01 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

No I don't feel that, I feel that the supposition that addiction is a dependent helpless state as a working model creates an excuse for the more weak minded that they are justified in not taking responsibility for their own action, especially when I feel that they are not helpless. I tend as a rule not to help them because that is where a lot of them are coming from.


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: falcon]
    #23723473 - 10/09/16 08:03 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Sorta like the insanity defense for crimes.  Nobody wants a easy defense yet there is something about possible root causes.


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: Morel Guy]
    #23723477 - 10/09/16 08:05 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I think we're working with a different understanding of what power is.


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: Morel Guy]
    #23723485 - 10/09/16 08:07 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Do you dress for the weather?


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23723594 - 10/09/16 08:46 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:

What about chemical dependence, though? 




Drugs change physiology. When a user stops, withdrawal causes unpleasant physical symptoms.
I get a painful headache when I stop using caffeine. The claim of modern addiction theory is
drugs can destroy one's ability to make decisions and leaves people powerless. If this idea is false,
it's our compassionate duty to speak up. It's not about blame. It's about the truth.

"Learned helplessness" occurs when an animal, unsuccessful in reducing their suffering, adopts the
perspective they're not in control and are powerless to change. The failure to change creates and
reinforces a belief they can't change. There's interesting research on this. It plays a big roll
in depression. The "I can't change" mantra. The passion surrounding powerlessness can be profound. 

A 400 lb person has fallen in love with the sensation of self-soothing and self-care that eating provides.
Notice an obese person overeats specific foods ("comfort food") Food itself is not the driving force.

This is why people often jump around to different addictions. The object of the addiction isn't the focus.
The "addictive personality" isn't a character or genetic defect. It's a type of thinking disorder, fixating
on feelings associated with the experience. People quit smoking and shift to over-eating and gain weight.
("Oral fixation" does not get to the heart of the matter.)   

Most hard-core junkies would stop using for 12 days if they received a $5,000,000 cash reward for doing it.
That many would use drugs on day 13 totally misses the point. Any junkie that stops for 12 days is
certainly very much in control of their behavior and is making conscious decisions.

Between every behavioral urge and every action is a conscious decision.


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23723652 - 10/09/16 09:00 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

My brother was addicted to heroin for several years.  (He's been sober now for about seven).  He was in rehab for a stretch, and as I recall, there was never any suggestion that it wasn't the addict's responsibility to toughen up and quit.  No one preached helplessness, and I fail to see how calling it a disease equates to that.  For a lot of people, addiction can be extremely difficult, and some of you seem to be saying, aw, keep a stiff upper lip and be strong-willed.  Nothing is so simple.

I will say eventually it was my brother and not his institutional help that got him off of the smack.  It was the choice between homelessness and a life.  He chose accordingly.  Perhaps he wouldn't have if he weren't forced to.  I don't know.  I don't know whether the rehab helped him at all or not; we have never discussed it.

But this notion that free will can beat addiction is ridiculous in my opinion, for the vast majority.  Most people aren't as enlightened as you, I guess. :shrug:


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23723742 - 10/09/16 09:30 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

These claims are made by many people in many professional fields. They aren't my pipe dream.

There's a massive amount of information and research on this subject. 

I've not implied quitting drugs is easy and haven't used the term "will power".

I have talked about whether "free will" (the ability to make decisions) can be destroyed. 

I'm talking about the actual motivation and mechanism of the behavior. It's not often discussed. 

12 Step philosophy is embraced by millions who claim they have a "lifetime disease".

Step #1 is to to admit, "I am powerless over alcohol and drugs". This topic is very relevant. 

The "powerlessness" concept is one of the fastest growing cultural beliefs ever.


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23723750 - 10/09/16 09:35 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I think most people would fall on the side that believes that habitual drug use that harms the user as a disease.  This idea of addiction as a disease, I think, for most carries with it the axiom that it is out of your control.

I don't think that habitual drug abuse is easy to overcome for most without support, but I  think the idea that addiction is a disease is not only untrue, it also masks the true nature of the situation.


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23723761 - 10/09/16 09:39 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I agree that positing powerlessness is unconstructive.  On the other hand, I think some people, perhaps many people, may in fact be essentially powerless over the substances that are ruining their lives.  There are many categories of people, and perhaps multiple categories of addiction as well.


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: falcon]
    #23723769 - 10/09/16 09:40 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I don't agree that calling it a disease implies it is out of your control.  Why?  Diseases can be cured.


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #23723779 - 10/09/16 09:45 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Having an opinion on drug addiction aside from scientists who study it if you're not a drug addict in recovery or active addiction is as meaningless as people who have an opinion on the psychedelic experience with out a proper trip.


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23723780 - 10/09/16 09:45 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

12 step philosophy (the foundation of most recovery programs), claims addiction is a "lifetime disease"

Anyone who claims they can defeat addiction is told, "Your disease is telling you that. Don't believe your stinkin thinkin"


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23723785 - 10/09/16 09:47 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Dude I know.  I'm a career drug addict been to rehab 3 times detox's twice 1 trip to the psych ward.  I know about the 12 steps the 12 traditions the first 164 pages of the big book.  I know AA/NA/ what ever A intimately. 

What is your point?


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #23723813 - 10/09/16 10:00 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
Dude I know.  I'm a career drug addict been to rehab 3 times detox's twice 1 trip to the psych ward.  I know about the 12 steps the 12 traditions the first 164 pages of the big book.  I know AA/NA/ what ever A intimately. 

What is your point?




My post was not in response to you. (My comment was a reply to DividedQuantum, below)


Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I don't agree that calling it a disease implies it is out of your control.  Why?  Diseases can be cured.




Cognitive Shift, why do you call yourself a "career drug addict"?


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23723824 - 10/09/16 10:06 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I'm clean now gonna have 90 days tomorrow but I call myself a career drug addict because previous this clean time I shot heroin for 8 years.  Normal people don't shoot heroin for 8 years and I met every single one of the criteria in the DSM for chemical dependancy or drug addiction or what ever it is you choose to call it.  There is a page in the NA book called "who is an addict."  When I read that page I felt like it was written about me.


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #23723832 - 10/09/16 10:09 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

How have you managed to stop?


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23723835 - 10/09/16 10:10 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Detox rehab and attending AA meetings.  I don't have a sponsor or do any step work but just going to the meetings and sharing if I feel like it does help,


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #23723838 - 10/09/16 10:11 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Good luck to you sir, and happy birthday!


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #23724055 - 10/10/16 12:17 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:

Detox rehab and attending AA meetings.  I don't have a sponsor or do any step work but just going to the meetings and sharing if I feel like it does help,




Great job!

Having a supportive community is very important. It's essential to have support.

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I agree that positing powerlessness is unconstructive.  On the other hand, I think some people, perhaps many people, may in fact be essentially powerless over the substances that are ruining their lives.  There are many categories of people, and perhaps multiple categories of addiction as well.




Your first line says teaching "powerlessness" is unconstructive and then you say it might be true.

People often make relatively simple things very complex. When we look at the roots of our
behavior and emotional disturbances, they aren't complex. Today it's common to say that there
are a vast myriad of reasons for peoples depression, anxiety, rage, and addiction that there
are as many categories of these experiences as people.

But psychoanalysts and behaviorists strongly disagree. Human struggles and misery have commonalities.

It's why methods such as CBT work well for depression and addiction. There are commonalities in causes and effects.


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23724493 - 10/10/16 08:48 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I don't agree that addiction is simple.  Brain chemistry is infinitely complex.  The body and nervous system are anything but simple.  Now you'll probably tell me that brain chemistry has little to do with it.

It's not that I disagree entirely with you.  I think you're making some very good points.  I am just of the opinion that the points you are making don't apply to everybody.  Some people need the twelve steps, for example.  You're claiming that this is inherently a simple matter when it appears obvious that it isn't.


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23724674 - 10/10/16 10:07 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I think it's subconscious.  The root cause of need and not living in bliss.  I get anxiety and discomfort so I am usually on a drug that easy to get (alcohol for now).  Plus lot's of tobacco.  I doubt it will overcome itself and I will never use again.


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: Morel Guy]
    #23724781 - 10/10/16 10:45 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Morel Guy said:
I get anxiety and discomfort so I am usually on a drug that easy to get (alcohol for now).  Plus lot's of tobacco.  I doubt it will overcome itself and I will never use again.




You're a perfect example of a hell of a lot of people.


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23724975 - 10/10/16 11:43 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

If addicton can be called a disease, can the same be said of homelessness?


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: and yet it moves]
    #23724997 - 10/10/16 11:52 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I never called it a disease.  And could you please explain the 1:1 parallel of addiction and homelessness?  Btw, many homeless people are schizophrenics that could never make it in the "real world" without a lot of help (and money).


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #23726914 - 10/10/16 10:23 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
The popular modern concept of drug addiction theory is based on the disease model, that chemicals
change the brain and destroy one's free will and ability to make decisions. A common story is . . .
"I took my first hit of crack and was instantly addicted and couldn't stop."

But addicts make many choices and decisions around using every day. ....




lets assume you are right ... then why do very successful and creative  people ... that millions envy ... often nearly destroy their lives with according to you, simply making bad decisions?
I am of course thinking of rock stars and movie actors. These folks have everything, power, friends, sex partners, millions of dollars, intelligence, creativity  --- and you're saying it's about being powerlessness or learned helplessness -- these people don't seem into being helpless --
not sure how that jives...


Edited by laughingdog (10/10/16 10:34 PM)


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23729871 - 10/11/16 11:02 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:

You're claiming that this is inherently a simple matter when it appears obvious that it isn't.




We're talking about behavior. There's no evidence the origin of behavior is incredibly complex. 
(Quite the opposite if you study psychoanalysis) Many people assume behavioral motivations
are very complex, but those who study behavior say otherwise. 

If your boss fires you and you kill him in retaliation, what does chemistry and genes have to do with it?

It's an interesting question, yeah? Murder is certainly an "abnormal" behavior. (or is it?)

There's many commonalities at the root of behaviors such as rage driven violence, eating disorders,
suicide, obesity, child abuse, terrorism, stalking, arson, intoxication, and self-mutilation.

Many attribute the primary weight of behavioral motivations to chemistry, genetics, neurology, etc.
But there's a large community of researchers who study behavior that disagree with this generalization.

The general public believes everyone's problems are uniquely special, because this is what we've been told.

But when we look at the motivations for behaviors, we see many commonalities.


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23729937 - 10/11/16 11:29 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

That is because of common substance, i.e. Brain or desire.


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: laughingdog]
    #23729962 - 10/11/16 11:40 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:

lets assume you are right ... then why do very successful and creative  people ... that millions envy ... often nearly destroy their lives with according to you, simply making bad decisions?





These aren't MY original ideas. I don't want to misrepresent this perspective.

There's a lot of research studies, books, and articles about the subject.

Here is one of many            http://www.thecleanslate.org/

(I've read several fascinating books that detail the evidence that "addiction" is not a disease.)

Chronic intoxication is no more about "bad" decisions anymore than serial rape, arson, or obesity.

(That the rich & famous often crash and burn reveals the fact what we believe makes us "happy" doesn't.)

There are motivations and causes for our behavior, and being rich doesn't provide a free pass.

BTW, how many times do we hear this story?

"I broke my leg, and my doctor gave me pain meds. When my prescription ran out, I started using Oxycodone.
But heroin is so much cheaper, I started using it. Now I'm addicted"


The assumption is exposure to a drug can cause a brain change that causes a person to become powerless.

The assumption is, when an "alcoholic" arises from the couch and drives to the liquor store, he is not in control
of his action. His (or her) muscles are moving in order to obtain booze because the ethanol molecule has hijacked
the brain and rendered him helpless and powerless. He is a zombie, with no capacity to act otherwise.

Some people who study behavior claim there's no evidence for this hypothesis.

So, you might ask, what on Earth would maintain behavior that causes so much suffering?


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #23730340 - 10/12/16 07:02 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:

So, you might ask, what on Earth would maintain behavior that causes so much suffering?




exactly

indeed saying it's not a disease, or  that addiction is not explained by chemicals hijacking 'free will' even if right, does not explain why the rich, powerful, creative, intelligent, talented, and sexually satisfied frequently end up 'addicted'. All you are doing is trashing one theory or definition, and providing no insight that includes these cases.

one thing, among others, that addictive drugs do to some degree is silence the critical voices many have in their heads - but that could be called just another form of pain ...


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: laughingdog]
    #23732699 - 10/12/16 10:17 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

People behave in many ways that create and cultivate their own suffering, right?

I'm not "trashing" ideas, but looking at them critically. We've been taught drugs
can turn people in zombies who are unable to make choices. But there are many
research studies that show "addicts" do have the ability to make decisions. 

There's some research done with crackheads (I can use that term because I was
once one) and chronic boozers. These studies demonstrate that "addicts" actually
can and will make choices not to use in certain circumstances. I could provide details. 

I've tried to focus on examining the theory that addicts don’t have a choice in
what they’re doing, which is based on the disease paradigm of addiction.

A 400 lb person "feels" out of control. But they're not a food binge zombie. People
become obsessed with all kinds of things. Giving up an obsession takes some skills. 

Why some people become addicted is a fascinating subject (just like the origin of
depression, which is similar and related, and not a "disease"). Any theory about
addiction must include addiction to porn, shopping, gambling, sex, and video games.

In our culture, many defend the disease theory and powerlessness like it's a religion.

The concept of powerlessness has played a role in my life. The subject is near to my heart.

To teach people they're diseased and powerless is to promote dependence and stigma.

Consider the many people who've died because they believed they were powerless.


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #23732885 - 10/12/16 11:59 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

so the ideas of powerlessness and disease may be over used

never the less dentists and surgeons use anesthetic for pain

people vary in their ability to tolerate pain

even meditators vary in their ability to ‘become one with pain’

withdrawal from many drugs causes painful withdrawal

opiates screw up the natural reward systems of the brain/nervous system and ability to enjoy life is diminished for a long time after quitting.
opiates do this by messing with receptors.

So, to me, calling the whole opiate business psychological seems an oversimplification and not very informative. I agree that broadly speaking much of adult human behavior is addictive, or designed to distract, from being fully present.

the reason these particular chemicals are addictive is that they mimic the body/minds natural chemical reward system, so something chemical is going on.

some  examples of our chemical reward system:

http://www.mamanatural.com/10-breastfeeding-benefits-you-may-not-have-heard-of/
10. Gives you a natural mama high
The benefits of breastfeeding keep getting better! As you nurse your baby, your body releases the hormone oxytocin, which produces calmness and even sleepiness.
This may explain why breastfeeding mothers experience less postpartum depression and have fewer incidences of child abuse and domestic violence. Even better, your body releases endorphins during breastfeeding which contribute to your overall well-being and gives you that natural high.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/thai-nguyen/hacking-into-your-happy-c_b_6007660.html
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=is+cheese+addictive&t=h_&ia=web
http://yumuniverse.com/addiction-to-cheese-is-real-thanks-to-casomorphins/
Addiction to Cheese is Real Thanks to Casomorphins
If you talk to anyone who has recently switched, or is considering a switch, to a plant-based diet, more often than not, they claim that cheese is their weakness. So why is this? After all, doesn’t cheese smell like dirty socks?
The answer is casomorphins—protein fragments, derived from the digestion of the milk protein, Casein. The distinguishing characteristic of casomorphins is that they have an opioid effect. Yup. Opioids are among the world’s oldest known drugs. Dependence can develop with ongoing administration, leading to withdrawal syndromes with abrupt discontinuation. Opioids are well known for their ability to produce a feeling of euphoria, motivating some to recreationally use opioids. But if it’s already a huge part of our diets in America, so who will actually have to experience the uncomfy withdrawl? You guessed it. Those who try to kick dairy to the curb.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=is+wheat+addictive&t=h_&ia=web

http://www.wheatbellyblog.com/2012/04/wheat-is-an-opiate/


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: laughingdog]
    #23732975 - 10/13/16 01:00 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Interesting. I definitely agree with the connection to our natural reward system. I'm going to read that about casein.

Addictive patterns often develop as part of personalty development, and are often tied to coping with trauma.

When they’re choosing to use, an addict believes it's their best option for happiness. They believe the costs are worth the benefits.


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #23733006 - 10/13/16 01:31 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

alcoholism and substance abuse most certainly is a GENETIC DISEASE.  The American Medical Association (AMA) also recognizes it as a disease.  Look up the definition of the word disease...

"a disorder of structure or function in a human, animal, or plant, especially one that produces specific signs or symptoms or that affects a specific location and is not simply a direct result of physical injury.  A particular quality, habit, or disposition regarded as adversely affecting a person or group of people."

disease = ‘lack of ease; from des- (expressing reversal) + aise ease." 
Get it... disease & dis-ease.  you can simplify it by saying not at ease.


It is the same as a person who is born with type 1 diabetes, except the diseased organ is the pancreas.  In the alcoholic person the organ that is affected is the BRAIN.  A normal persons brain does not function in attempt to kill or harm oneself, where as a diseased/addicted persons brain will continue and pursue and perpetuate physically destructive and self-damaging behavior risking death.


Edited by sprinkles (10/13/16 01:37 AM)


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23733012 - 10/13/16 01:35 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Interesting. I definitely agree with the connection to our natural reward system. I'm going to read that about casein.

Addictive patterns often develop as part of personalty development, and are often tied to coping with trauma.

When they’re choosing to use, an addict believes it's their best option for happiness. They believe the costs are worth the benefits.




I am addicted to milk, far beyond that of any drug on the entire planet.  I will murder thousands of people on behalf of Elsie (Elsie is the name of our moo-ing cow toy that when you turn upside down/right side up it goes MoOoooooooooooo. it was popular in like the late 80's. anyway it's part of our family).

I drink half a gallon of milk a day.  I believe that is the reason I am ripped far beyond any other female ive ever seen and I dont even work out.


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Edited by sprinkles (10/13/16 01:41 AM)


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: sprinkles]
    #23740233 - 10/15/16 03:28 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

By that liberal interpretation of the word disease you would have to consider things that are symptoms as themselves diseases. Coughing, soreness, fever all cause unease.

I think it's better to look at addiction as a symptom, symptoms can be treated but not cured as they are not the cause, they will not be alleviated until the cause is corrected.


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: sprinkles]
    #23740772 - 10/15/16 08:17 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I'm aware of AMA claims. But where's the science there are genes associated with loss of free will?

How do we account for the myriad of people throughout history that ended their love affair with intoxication?

Learning to play the piano will change your brain. And becoming enraged. And gambling. And sex.

That someone could eat a potato chip, then become incapacitated due to the brain change, then eat the whole bag, is silly.

Obese people are just like addicts. They desire to escape their lack of ease. But "addicts" make many choices, every day.

There's no evidence their brain is malfunctioning in a manner that turns them into zombies, walking to the liquor store.

If there was a gene for "addiction" we would be testing children for it. But there's no test. Not one.

People fall in love with chemicals for the same reason they fall in love with food, gambling, and video games.

Note that 12 step programs admit 0% success rate in defeating addiction.

They claim this is a "life-time disease nobody recovers from". The truth is many have done so.

Lots of excellent cutting-edge behavioral and neurological science that disputes the out-dated brain disease theory . . .

  The Biology of Desire: Why Addiction Is Not a Disease
  Marc Lewis PhD

  Diseasing of America: How We Allowed the Recovery Treatment Industry to Convince Us We Are Out of Control
  Stanton Peele

  The Sober Truth: Debunking the Bad Science Behind 12-Step Programs and the Rehab Industry 
  Lance Dodes

  Unbroken Brain: A Revolutionary New Way of Understanding Addiction
  Maia Szalavitz


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23740795 - 10/15/16 08:30 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

You make some good points, and that is all well and good, but why must you insist that treating addiction in some people as a disorder, or a pathological process, is incompatible with personal responsibility?  Why do you feel addicts are being called zombies?  I don't think anyone is really doing that...


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23740839 - 10/15/16 08:59 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

The foundation of the current definition of "addiction" is a loss of control.

If a drug causes someone to lose control of their ability to make decisions,
and they lose the ability to choose their behavior, they are a type of zombie.

Again, the first declaration in every 12 step program is powerlessness.

If you don't care for "zombie" as an analogy, maybe drug-driven robot?


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23740853 - 10/15/16 09:07 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Well perhaps I don't speak for the establishment, but it seems to me that someone can suffer from crippling addiction and still have personal responsibility.  It's not always so simple as just making a strong-willed decision not to be addicted, imo.


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23740873 - 10/15/16 09:18 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

(In this thread I've not addressed how people defeat addiction, other than to state many have.)

If an "addict" is out of control, and unable to make decisions, how can they be held responsible for their behavior?


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Re: Addiction Theory -- shades of grey - - & theories [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23740899 - 10/15/16 09:37 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

folks are so in love with ‘either - or’ thinking
“are you with me or against me?” etc.

but there are many shades of gray, and things that change cyclicly, and metamorphosis etc.

Are potato chips addictive? Do you scratch mosquito bites?

how are these people handling pain?
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=human+suspension&t=h_&iar=images&iax=1&ia=images
could you do it? To me it is creepy and I certainly couldn’t handle it.

why were people taken in by Bernie Madoff? Why do most religious people have the same religion as their parents? But believe they have ‘free will’?

I fail to see much control in most human behavior, let alone the loss of it. Most people are proud of the culture they grew up in, but believe they have ‘free will’, and that their way of doing things is best.

Not sure what you hope to prove here?

Yes learned helplessness is an interesting phenomenon.
Nice video on it here:


But from the point of view of a zen monk, surely most human behavior, is seen to be compulsive. Observe people anywhere, they constantly shift position, scratch, fidget, and employ mannerisms, all unconsciously. But if you asked them about Dukkha or suffering they would all think it a crazy idea.

And taking the case of compulsive behavior, say for example ‘compulsive hand washing’, till the skin is damaged - clearly as you say this is not chemical - and unlike opiates it is painful & not pleasurable. But just to say it is ‘psychological’ , or that Existentially it must be a choice is not informative, or helpful, as far as I can see.

I do not have a theory of addiction. One thing I like about the great hypnotherapist (on whom NLP was mostly modeled) Milton Erikson, was that unlike so many others he did not have a pet theory. He said he developed a new theory for every patient. That implied to his students that one has to pay attention and drop preconceptions, if one wants to help people effectively, it seems to me.


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Re: Addiction Theory -- shades of grey - - & theories [Re: laughingdog]
    #23740914 - 10/15/16 09:43 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

You do have a point I think that there are psychological elements.

Hypnotists are taught not to take on clients for smoking cessation,
that are simply in the office because someone else sent them. The hypnotist must first verify that the client is strongly self motivated; otherwise any benefits are likely to be short lived.


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23740916 - 10/15/16 09:44 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
(In this thread I've not addressed how people defeat addiction, other than to state many have.)

If an "addict" is out of control, and unable to make decisions, how can they be held responsible for their behavior?




Well first, I would like to second laughingdog's excellent post just above, and further just re-assert the notion that many complicated subjects do not fall neatly into either-or categories.  One can be a strong-willed person and find it very difficult to quit smoking.  It's not because they are robotic that they have this difficulty; in fact, it is to my mind very un-robotic and very human.  Addiction can cause a lot of pain, and we all seek to avoid pain.  That has nothing to do with how robotic our behavior is.


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23741477 - 10/16/16 05:02 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

never thought of it as theory


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: Mindfulness] * 1
    #23741623 - 10/16/16 07:39 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

when no substances are involved but people exhibit the same behavior as an addict such as:

"blaming other people for the consequences of their own distracted negligence, then running out of the room to get another fix (of self pity or whatever the obsession is)."

in this way you need to treat the behavior as if the person were an addict, so it is a theoretical similarity that maps precisely to the behaviors.


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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #23750507 - 10/18/16 10:05 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I haven't seen anyone post about Johann Hari in this thread yet. I recently started watching his interviews. Haven't read his book yet but I plan to soon. Curious if anyone has heard about this view on the topic and what you all might think, especially the career addicts that have been posting on this thread.



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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Addiction Theory -- shades of grey - - & theories [Re: laughingdog]
    #23750566 - 10/18/16 10:21 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:

Not sure what you hope to prove here?



Not trying to prove a point, but bring up concepts that are the focus of many who study behavior.

I wish I'd learned about alternative viewpoints to the current popular theory earlier in my life. 

Some behaviors can become compulsive, and effect the motivation centers in the brain.

But, if I don't want to stop eating a pint of ice cream every night, do I have the ability to not do it?

If I don't want to exercise regularly, do I have the ability to do it anyway?

If I don't want to stop gambling, do I have the ability to not gamble?

If I hate my job with a passion, can I go to work every day anyway?

People frequently do what they don't want to do.

I don't think conquering addictions and obsessions is necessarily related to will-power. People
can truly overcome acting on urges when they understand the psychological environment that
drives them and develop mindfulness skills that allow them to notice the decisions they
make. An addict thinks they don't make decisions. Someone once said addiction is
a type of ignorance and a lack of understanding. 

Many of us are attracted to pain, and addiction provides that in spades. A big part of why
I like to get drunk is that I really enjoy the painful hangover the next day. The hangover
is as important (or more) than the few hours being drunk. A nasty hangover serves a function
for me. Pain is an effective escape from reality. I have no emotional turmoil when I'm hungover.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: PageSideRageSide]
    #23756724 - 10/21/16 01:25 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

PageSideRageSide said:

I haven't seen anyone post about Johann Hari in this thread yet. I recently started watching his interviews.




Some good points, with material from well know researchers (Dr. Gabor Maté), talking about all of the
harm that's caused by the maintenance of the outdated ideas of addiction theory. The label "addict"
creates deep psychological harm and reinforces dependence, instability, and self-hatred. 

Some people, (forum member Asante), have brought this subject up. The experiments have been
discussed. Beliefs about addiction theory we've been taught are often so strongly held, many don't
want to consider evidence they're inaccurate and incredibly harmful. Data regarding Vets
and heroin use, behavioral studies, etc. are not given much, if any, weight.

It will take some generations before we abandon these archaic beliefs. 

People aren't addicted to drugs and alcohol. They're addicted to escaping reality.
(which explains the fact many people use a wide variety of drugs and experiences to escape)

People bond with gambling, drugs, shopping, porn and video games because they lack human bonds.

As Johann Hari says,

  The opposite of addiction is not sobriety.
  The opposite of addiction is connection.


(The term "dry drunk" reflects the perspective booze isn't the cause of the issue.)


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OfflineCory Duchesne
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23804587 - 11/05/16 07:54 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

thought some of you might enjoy this short audio clip of Rupert Sheldrake discussing his experience smoking Cannabis in a Sufi shrine in India.

Rupert Sheldrake on Cannabis (Trialogues series)

 


"To say No when Yes would be a piece of selflessness, but also to say No as little as possible. To depart from that to which No would be required again and again.  The rationale is that defense expenditures, be they never so small, lead to extraordinary impoverishment.  Our largest expenditures are our most frequent small ones. Warding off, not letting come close, is an expenditure. A strength squandered on negative objectives.  Merely through the constant need to ward off, one can become too weak any longer to defend oneself." (Ecce Homo, Nietzsche)


--------------------
C.G. Jung: "Please remember, it is what you are that heals, not what you know."

"I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud." - Carl Jung

Krishna, as his friends called him, freely admitted his compulsive lying. He blamed it on simple fear of having his deceptions detected." NOTES OF A FRINGE-WATCHER MARTIN GARDNER on J Krishnamurti

"All your questions are born out of the answers you already have. Any answer anybody gives should put an end to your questions. But it does not." [UG-K]


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: Cory Duchesne]
    #23804909 - 11/05/16 09:42 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I watched the video clip and read and reread the quote by Nietzsche

Can you distill your thoughts about them?


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OfflineCory Duchesne
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23805111 - 11/05/16 11:13 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


I watched the video clip and read and reread the quote by Nietzsche.  Can you distill your thoughts about them?




At the core of my thoughts (about the video clip & FN quote) is an intuitive folk-psychology that i find difficult to put into words.

When we consider addiction, please consider how we regard our neighbor and how a defensive attitude is part of what drug addiction is, and how drugs like alcohol and cannabis are used as a way to cope with and tolerate our neighbor or wife or parent or child.  "Yes and No" start to take on an added significance as we establish other values such as competence, occupation and integrity of word and action.  Personally, I feel a sense of fortitude from cannabis use that i sometimes find difficult to justify.  That's all part of addiction, it's the defensiveness and the convenience of using money, self-depreciation and drugs as a substitute for the art of love and skill.


--------------------
C.G. Jung: "Please remember, it is what you are that heals, not what you know."

"I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud." - Carl Jung

Krishna, as his friends called him, freely admitted his compulsive lying. He blamed it on simple fear of having his deceptions detected." NOTES OF A FRINGE-WATCHER MARTIN GARDNER on J Krishnamurti

"All your questions are born out of the answers you already have. Any answer anybody gives should put an end to your questions. But it does not." [UG-K]


Edited by Cory Duchesne (11/06/16 12:15 AM)


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: Cory Duchesne]
    #23805117 - 11/05/16 11:21 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I agree that intoxication is an attempt to cope with life situations that seem intolerable.

It's a dysfunctional perspective we need drugs to cope with our neighbor, wife, parent, or child.


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