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RJ Tubs 202


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(In this thread I've not addressed how people defeat addiction, other than to state many have.)
If an "addict" is out of control, and unable to make decisions, how can they be held responsible for their behavior?
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laughingdog
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Re: Addiction Theory -- shades of grey - - & theories [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
#23740899 - 10/15/16 09:37 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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folks are so in love with ‘either - or’ thinking “are you with me or against me?” etc.
but there are many shades of gray, and things that change cyclicly, and metamorphosis etc.
Are potato chips addictive? Do you scratch mosquito bites?
how are these people handling pain? https://duckduckgo.com/?q=human+suspension&t=h_&iar=images&iax=1&ia=images could you do it? To me it is creepy and I certainly couldn’t handle it.
why were people taken in by Bernie Madoff? Why do most religious people have the same religion as their parents? But believe they have ‘free will’?
I fail to see much control in most human behavior, let alone the loss of it. Most people are proud of the culture they grew up in, but believe they have ‘free will’, and that their way of doing things is best.
Not sure what you hope to prove here?
Yes learned helplessness is an interesting phenomenon. Nice video on it here:
But from the point of view of a zen monk, surely most human behavior, is seen to be compulsive. Observe people anywhere, they constantly shift position, scratch, fidget, and employ mannerisms, all unconsciously. But if you asked them about Dukkha or suffering they would all think it a crazy idea.
And taking the case of compulsive behavior, say for example ‘compulsive hand washing’, till the skin is damaged - clearly as you say this is not chemical - and unlike opiates it is painful & not pleasurable. But just to say it is ‘psychological’ , or that Existentially it must be a choice is not informative, or helpful, as far as I can see.
I do not have a theory of addiction. One thing I like about the great hypnotherapist (on whom NLP was mostly modeled) Milton Erikson, was that unlike so many others he did not have a pet theory. He said he developed a new theory for every patient. That implied to his students that one has to pay attention and drop preconceptions, if one wants to help people effectively, it seems to me.
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laughingdog
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Re: Addiction Theory -- shades of grey - - & theories [Re: laughingdog]
#23740914 - 10/15/16 09:43 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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You do have a point I think that there are psychological elements.
Hypnotists are taught not to take on clients for smoking cessation, that are simply in the office because someone else sent them. The hypnotist must first verify that the client is strongly self motivated; otherwise any benefits are likely to be short lived.
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DividedQuantum
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Registered: 12/06/13
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said: (In this thread I've not addressed how people defeat addiction, other than to state many have.)
If an "addict" is out of control, and unable to make decisions, how can they be held responsible for their behavior?
Well first, I would like to second laughingdog's excellent post just above, and further just re-assert the notion that many complicated subjects do not fall neatly into either-or categories. One can be a strong-willed person and find it very difficult to quit smoking. It's not because they are robotic that they have this difficulty; in fact, it is to my mind very un-robotic and very human. Addiction can cause a lot of pain, and we all seek to avoid pain. That has nothing to do with how robotic our behavior is.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Mindfulness
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never thought of it as theory
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redgreenvines
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when no substances are involved but people exhibit the same behavior as an addict such as:
"blaming other people for the consequences of their own distracted negligence, then running out of the room to get another fix (of self pity or whatever the obsession is)."
in this way you need to treat the behavior as if the person were an addict, so it is a theoretical similarity that maps precisely to the behaviors.
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PageSideRageSide


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I haven't seen anyone post about Johann Hari in this thread yet. I recently started watching his interviews. Haven't read his book yet but I plan to soon. Curious if anyone has heard about this view on the topic and what you all might think, especially the career addicts that have been posting on this thread.
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RJ Tubs 202


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Re: Addiction Theory -- shades of grey - - & theories [Re: laughingdog]
#23750566 - 10/18/16 10:21 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
laughingdog said:
Not sure what you hope to prove here?
Not trying to prove a point, but bring up concepts that are the focus of many who study behavior.
I wish I'd learned about alternative viewpoints to the current popular theory earlier in my life.
Some behaviors can become compulsive, and effect the motivation centers in the brain.
But, if I don't want to stop eating a pint of ice cream every night, do I have the ability to not do it?
If I don't want to exercise regularly, do I have the ability to do it anyway?
If I don't want to stop gambling, do I have the ability to not gamble?
If I hate my job with a passion, can I go to work every day anyway?
People frequently do what they don't want to do.
I don't think conquering addictions and obsessions is necessarily related to will-power. People can truly overcome acting on urges when they understand the psychological environment that drives them and develop mindfulness skills that allow them to notice the decisions they make. An addict thinks they don't make decisions. Someone once said addiction is a type of ignorance and a lack of understanding.
Many of us are attracted to pain, and addiction provides that in spades. A big part of why I like to get drunk is that I really enjoy the painful hangover the next day. The hangover is as important (or more) than the few hours being drunk. A nasty hangover serves a function for me. Pain is an effective escape from reality. I have no emotional turmoil when I'm hungover.
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RJ Tubs 202


Registered: 09/20/08
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Quote:
PageSideRageSide said:
I haven't seen anyone post about Johann Hari in this thread yet. I recently started watching his interviews.
Some good points, with material from well know researchers (Dr. Gabor Maté), talking about all of the harm that's caused by the maintenance of the outdated ideas of addiction theory. The label "addict" creates deep psychological harm and reinforces dependence, instability, and self-hatred.
Some people, (forum member Asante), have brought this subject up. The experiments have been discussed. Beliefs about addiction theory we've been taught are often so strongly held, many don't want to consider evidence they're inaccurate and incredibly harmful. Data regarding Vets and heroin use, behavioral studies, etc. are not given much, if any, weight.
It will take some generations before we abandon these archaic beliefs.
People aren't addicted to drugs and alcohol. They're addicted to escaping reality. (which explains the fact many people use a wide variety of drugs and experiences to escape)
People bond with gambling, drugs, shopping, porn and video games because they lack human bonds.
As Johann Hari says,
The opposite of addiction is not sobriety. The opposite of addiction is connection.
(The term "dry drunk" reflects the perspective booze isn't the cause of the issue.)
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Cory Duchesne
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thought some of you might enjoy this short audio clip of Rupert Sheldrake discussing his experience smoking Cannabis in a Sufi shrine in India.
Rupert Sheldrake on Cannabis (Trialogues series)
"To say No when Yes would be a piece of selflessness, but also to say No as little as possible. To depart from that to which No would be required again and again. The rationale is that defense expenditures, be they never so small, lead to extraordinary impoverishment. Our largest expenditures are our most frequent small ones. Warding off, not letting come close, is an expenditure. A strength squandered on negative objectives. Merely through the constant need to ward off, one can become too weak any longer to defend oneself." (Ecce Homo, Nietzsche)
-------------------- C.G. Jung: "Please remember, it is what you are that heals, not what you know." "I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud." - Carl Jung Krishna, as his friends called him, freely admitted his compulsive lying. He blamed it on simple fear of having his deceptions detected." NOTES OF A FRINGE-WATCHER MARTIN GARDNER on J Krishnamurti "All your questions are born out of the answers you already have. Any answer anybody gives should put an end to your questions. But it does not." [UG-K]
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RJ Tubs 202


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I watched the video clip and read and reread the quote by Nietzsche
Can you distill your thoughts about them?
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Cory Duchesne
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Quote:
I watched the video clip and read and reread the quote by Nietzsche. Can you distill your thoughts about them?
At the core of my thoughts (about the video clip & FN quote) is an intuitive folk-psychology that i find difficult to put into words.
When we consider addiction, please consider how we regard our neighbor and how a defensive attitude is part of what drug addiction is, and how drugs like alcohol and cannabis are used as a way to cope with and tolerate our neighbor or wife or parent or child. "Yes and No" start to take on an added significance as we establish other values such as competence, occupation and integrity of word and action. Personally, I feel a sense of fortitude from cannabis use that i sometimes find difficult to justify. That's all part of addiction, it's the defensiveness and the convenience of using money, self-depreciation and drugs as a substitute for the art of love and skill.
-------------------- C.G. Jung: "Please remember, it is what you are that heals, not what you know." "I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud." - Carl Jung Krishna, as his friends called him, freely admitted his compulsive lying. He blamed it on simple fear of having his deceptions detected." NOTES OF A FRINGE-WATCHER MARTIN GARDNER on J Krishnamurti "All your questions are born out of the answers you already have. Any answer anybody gives should put an end to your questions. But it does not." [UG-K]
Edited by Cory Duchesne (11/06/16 12:15 AM)
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RJ Tubs 202


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I agree that intoxication is an attempt to cope with life situations that seem intolerable.
It's a dysfunctional perspective we need drugs to cope with our neighbor, wife, parent, or child.
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