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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23724493 - 10/10/16 08:48 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I don't agree that addiction is simple.  Brain chemistry is infinitely complex.  The body and nervous system are anything but simple.  Now you'll probably tell me that brain chemistry has little to do with it.

It's not that I disagree entirely with you.  I think you're making some very good points.  I am just of the opinion that the points you are making don't apply to everybody.  Some people need the twelve steps, for example.  You're claiming that this is inherently a simple matter when it appears obvious that it isn't.


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23724674 - 10/10/16 10:07 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I think it's subconscious.  The root cause of need and not living in bliss.  I get anxiety and discomfort so I am usually on a drug that easy to get (alcohol for now).  Plus lot's of tobacco.  I doubt it will overcome itself and I will never use again.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: Morel Guy]
    #23724781 - 10/10/16 10:45 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Morel Guy said:
I get anxiety and discomfort so I am usually on a drug that easy to get (alcohol for now).  Plus lot's of tobacco.  I doubt it will overcome itself and I will never use again.




You're a perfect example of a hell of a lot of people.


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Offlineand yet it moves
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23724975 - 10/10/16 11:43 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

If addicton can be called a disease, can the same be said of homelessness?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: and yet it moves]
    #23724997 - 10/10/16 11:52 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I never called it a disease.  And could you please explain the 1:1 parallel of addiction and homelessness?  Btw, many homeless people are schizophrenics that could never make it in the "real world" without a lot of help (and money).


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #23726914 - 10/10/16 10:23 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
The popular modern concept of drug addiction theory is based on the disease model, that chemicals
change the brain and destroy one's free will and ability to make decisions. A common story is . . .
"I took my first hit of crack and was instantly addicted and couldn't stop."

But addicts make many choices and decisions around using every day. ....




lets assume you are right ... then why do very successful and creative  people ... that millions envy ... often nearly destroy their lives with according to you, simply making bad decisions?
I am of course thinking of rock stars and movie actors. These folks have everything, power, friends, sex partners, millions of dollars, intelligence, creativity  --- and you're saying it's about being powerlessness or learned helplessness -- these people don't seem into being helpless --
not sure how that jives...


Edited by laughingdog (10/10/16 10:34 PM)


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23729871 - 10/11/16 11:02 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:

You're claiming that this is inherently a simple matter when it appears obvious that it isn't.




We're talking about behavior. There's no evidence the origin of behavior is incredibly complex. 
(Quite the opposite if you study psychoanalysis) Many people assume behavioral motivations
are very complex, but those who study behavior say otherwise. 

If your boss fires you and you kill him in retaliation, what does chemistry and genes have to do with it?

It's an interesting question, yeah? Murder is certainly an "abnormal" behavior. (or is it?)

There's many commonalities at the root of behaviors such as rage driven violence, eating disorders,
suicide, obesity, child abuse, terrorism, stalking, arson, intoxication, and self-mutilation.

Many attribute the primary weight of behavioral motivations to chemistry, genetics, neurology, etc.
But there's a large community of researchers who study behavior that disagree with this generalization.

The general public believes everyone's problems are uniquely special, because this is what we've been told.

But when we look at the motivations for behaviors, we see many commonalities.


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23729937 - 10/11/16 11:29 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

That is because of common substance, i.e. Brain or desire.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: laughingdog]
    #23729962 - 10/11/16 11:40 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:

lets assume you are right ... then why do very successful and creative  people ... that millions envy ... often nearly destroy their lives with according to you, simply making bad decisions?





These aren't MY original ideas. I don't want to misrepresent this perspective.

There's a lot of research studies, books, and articles about the subject.

Here is one of many            http://www.thecleanslate.org/

(I've read several fascinating books that detail the evidence that "addiction" is not a disease.)

Chronic intoxication is no more about "bad" decisions anymore than serial rape, arson, or obesity.

(That the rich & famous often crash and burn reveals the fact what we believe makes us "happy" doesn't.)

There are motivations and causes for our behavior, and being rich doesn't provide a free pass.

BTW, how many times do we hear this story?

"I broke my leg, and my doctor gave me pain meds. When my prescription ran out, I started using Oxycodone.
But heroin is so much cheaper, I started using it. Now I'm addicted"


The assumption is exposure to a drug can cause a brain change that causes a person to become powerless.

The assumption is, when an "alcoholic" arises from the couch and drives to the liquor store, he is not in control
of his action. His (or her) muscles are moving in order to obtain booze because the ethanol molecule has hijacked
the brain and rendered him helpless and powerless. He is a zombie, with no capacity to act otherwise.

Some people who study behavior claim there's no evidence for this hypothesis.

So, you might ask, what on Earth would maintain behavior that causes so much suffering?


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #23730340 - 10/12/16 07:02 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:

So, you might ask, what on Earth would maintain behavior that causes so much suffering?




exactly

indeed saying it's not a disease, or  that addiction is not explained by chemicals hijacking 'free will' even if right, does not explain why the rich, powerful, creative, intelligent, talented, and sexually satisfied frequently end up 'addicted'. All you are doing is trashing one theory or definition, and providing no insight that includes these cases.

one thing, among others, that addictive drugs do to some degree is silence the critical voices many have in their heads - but that could be called just another form of pain ...


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: laughingdog]
    #23732699 - 10/12/16 10:17 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

People behave in many ways that create and cultivate their own suffering, right?

I'm not "trashing" ideas, but looking at them critically. We've been taught drugs
can turn people in zombies who are unable to make choices. But there are many
research studies that show "addicts" do have the ability to make decisions. 

There's some research done with crackheads (I can use that term because I was
once one) and chronic boozers. These studies demonstrate that "addicts" actually
can and will make choices not to use in certain circumstances. I could provide details. 

I've tried to focus on examining the theory that addicts don’t have a choice in
what they’re doing, which is based on the disease paradigm of addiction.

A 400 lb person "feels" out of control. But they're not a food binge zombie. People
become obsessed with all kinds of things. Giving up an obsession takes some skills. 

Why some people become addicted is a fascinating subject (just like the origin of
depression, which is similar and related, and not a "disease"). Any theory about
addiction must include addiction to porn, shopping, gambling, sex, and video games.

In our culture, many defend the disease theory and powerlessness like it's a religion.

The concept of powerlessness has played a role in my life. The subject is near to my heart.

To teach people they're diseased and powerless is to promote dependence and stigma.

Consider the many people who've died because they believed they were powerless.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #23732885 - 10/12/16 11:59 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

so the ideas of powerlessness and disease may be over used

never the less dentists and surgeons use anesthetic for pain

people vary in their ability to tolerate pain

even meditators vary in their ability to ‘become one with pain’

withdrawal from many drugs causes painful withdrawal

opiates screw up the natural reward systems of the brain/nervous system and ability to enjoy life is diminished for a long time after quitting.
opiates do this by messing with receptors.

So, to me, calling the whole opiate business psychological seems an oversimplification and not very informative. I agree that broadly speaking much of adult human behavior is addictive, or designed to distract, from being fully present.

the reason these particular chemicals are addictive is that they mimic the body/minds natural chemical reward system, so something chemical is going on.

some  examples of our chemical reward system:

http://www.mamanatural.com/10-breastfeeding-benefits-you-may-not-have-heard-of/
10. Gives you a natural mama high
The benefits of breastfeeding keep getting better! As you nurse your baby, your body releases the hormone oxytocin, which produces calmness and even sleepiness.
This may explain why breastfeeding mothers experience less postpartum depression and have fewer incidences of child abuse and domestic violence. Even better, your body releases endorphins during breastfeeding which contribute to your overall well-being and gives you that natural high.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/thai-nguyen/hacking-into-your-happy-c_b_6007660.html
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=is+cheese+addictive&t=h_&ia=web
http://yumuniverse.com/addiction-to-cheese-is-real-thanks-to-casomorphins/
Addiction to Cheese is Real Thanks to Casomorphins
If you talk to anyone who has recently switched, or is considering a switch, to a plant-based diet, more often than not, they claim that cheese is their weakness. So why is this? After all, doesn’t cheese smell like dirty socks?
The answer is casomorphins—protein fragments, derived from the digestion of the milk protein, Casein. The distinguishing characteristic of casomorphins is that they have an opioid effect. Yup. Opioids are among the world’s oldest known drugs. Dependence can develop with ongoing administration, leading to withdrawal syndromes with abrupt discontinuation. Opioids are well known for their ability to produce a feeling of euphoria, motivating some to recreationally use opioids. But if it’s already a huge part of our diets in America, so who will actually have to experience the uncomfy withdrawl? You guessed it. Those who try to kick dairy to the curb.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=is+wheat+addictive&t=h_&ia=web

http://www.wheatbellyblog.com/2012/04/wheat-is-an-opiate/


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: laughingdog]
    #23732975 - 10/13/16 01:00 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Interesting. I definitely agree with the connection to our natural reward system. I'm going to read that about casein.

Addictive patterns often develop as part of personalty development, and are often tied to coping with trauma.

When they’re choosing to use, an addict believes it's their best option for happiness. They believe the costs are worth the benefits.


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Offlinesprinkles
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #23733006 - 10/13/16 01:31 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

alcoholism and substance abuse most certainly is a GENETIC DISEASE.  The American Medical Association (AMA) also recognizes it as a disease.  Look up the definition of the word disease...

"a disorder of structure or function in a human, animal, or plant, especially one that produces specific signs or symptoms or that affects a specific location and is not simply a direct result of physical injury.  A particular quality, habit, or disposition regarded as adversely affecting a person or group of people."

disease = ‘lack of ease; from des- (expressing reversal) + aise ease." 
Get it... disease & dis-ease.  you can simplify it by saying not at ease.


It is the same as a person who is born with type 1 diabetes, except the diseased organ is the pancreas.  In the alcoholic person the organ that is affected is the BRAIN.  A normal persons brain does not function in attempt to kill or harm oneself, where as a diseased/addicted persons brain will continue and pursue and perpetuate physically destructive and self-damaging behavior risking death.


Edited by sprinkles (10/13/16 01:37 AM)


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Offlinesprinkles
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23733012 - 10/13/16 01:35 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Interesting. I definitely agree with the connection to our natural reward system. I'm going to read that about casein.

Addictive patterns often develop as part of personalty development, and are often tied to coping with trauma.

When they’re choosing to use, an addict believes it's their best option for happiness. They believe the costs are worth the benefits.




I am addicted to milk, far beyond that of any drug on the entire planet.  I will murder thousands of people on behalf of Elsie (Elsie is the name of our moo-ing cow toy that when you turn upside down/right side up it goes MoOoooooooooooo. it was popular in like the late 80's. anyway it's part of our family).

I drink half a gallon of milk a day.  I believe that is the reason I am ripped far beyond any other female ive ever seen and I dont even work out.


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Edited by sprinkles (10/13/16 01:41 AM)


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: sprinkles]
    #23740233 - 10/15/16 03:28 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

By that liberal interpretation of the word disease you would have to consider things that are symptoms as themselves diseases. Coughing, soreness, fever all cause unease.

I think it's better to look at addiction as a symptom, symptoms can be treated but not cured as they are not the cause, they will not be alleviated until the cause is corrected.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: sprinkles]
    #23740772 - 10/15/16 08:17 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I'm aware of AMA claims. But where's the science there are genes associated with loss of free will?

How do we account for the myriad of people throughout history that ended their love affair with intoxication?

Learning to play the piano will change your brain. And becoming enraged. And gambling. And sex.

That someone could eat a potato chip, then become incapacitated due to the brain change, then eat the whole bag, is silly.

Obese people are just like addicts. They desire to escape their lack of ease. But "addicts" make many choices, every day.

There's no evidence their brain is malfunctioning in a manner that turns them into zombies, walking to the liquor store.

If there was a gene for "addiction" we would be testing children for it. But there's no test. Not one.

People fall in love with chemicals for the same reason they fall in love with food, gambling, and video games.

Note that 12 step programs admit 0% success rate in defeating addiction.

They claim this is a "life-time disease nobody recovers from". The truth is many have done so.

Lots of excellent cutting-edge behavioral and neurological science that disputes the out-dated brain disease theory . . .

  The Biology of Desire: Why Addiction Is Not a Disease
  Marc Lewis PhD

  Diseasing of America: How We Allowed the Recovery Treatment Industry to Convince Us We Are Out of Control
  Stanton Peele

  The Sober Truth: Debunking the Bad Science Behind 12-Step Programs and the Rehab Industry 
  Lance Dodes

  Unbroken Brain: A Revolutionary New Way of Understanding Addiction
  Maia Szalavitz


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23740795 - 10/15/16 08:30 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

You make some good points, and that is all well and good, but why must you insist that treating addiction in some people as a disorder, or a pathological process, is incompatible with personal responsibility?  Why do you feel addicts are being called zombies?  I don't think anyone is really doing that...


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23740839 - 10/15/16 08:59 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

The foundation of the current definition of "addiction" is a loss of control.

If a drug causes someone to lose control of their ability to make decisions,
and they lose the ability to choose their behavior, they are a type of zombie.

Again, the first declaration in every 12 step program is powerlessness.

If you don't care for "zombie" as an analogy, maybe drug-driven robot?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23740853 - 10/15/16 09:07 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Well perhaps I don't speak for the establishment, but it seems to me that someone can suffer from crippling addiction and still have personal responsibility.  It's not always so simple as just making a strong-willed decision not to be addicted, imo.


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