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Morel Guy
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Registered: 01/23/13
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Addiction is hard as hell and sobriety will never give the full grace when you are alive.
Nobody needs carried as much as a user.
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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falcon



Registered: 04/01/02
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No I don't feel that, I feel that the supposition that addiction is a dependent helpless state as a working model creates an excuse for the more weak minded that they are justified in not taking responsibility for their own action, especially when I feel that they are not helpless. I tend as a rule not to help them because that is where a lot of them are coming from.
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Morel Guy
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: falcon]
#23723473 - 10/09/16 08:03 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Sorta like the insanity defense for crimes. Nobody wants a easy defense yet there is something about possible root causes.
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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falcon



Registered: 04/01/02
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: Morel Guy]
#23723477 - 10/09/16 08:05 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think we're working with a different understanding of what power is.
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falcon



Registered: 04/01/02
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: Morel Guy]
#23723485 - 10/09/16 08:07 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Do you dress for the weather?
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RJ Tubs 202


Registered: 09/20/08
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
What about chemical dependence, though?
Drugs change physiology. When a user stops, withdrawal causes unpleasant physical symptoms. I get a painful headache when I stop using caffeine. The claim of modern addiction theory is drugs can destroy one's ability to make decisions and leaves people powerless. If this idea is false, it's our compassionate duty to speak up. It's not about blame. It's about the truth.
"Learned helplessness" occurs when an animal, unsuccessful in reducing their suffering, adopts the perspective they're not in control and are powerless to change. The failure to change creates and reinforces a belief they can't change. There's interesting research on this. It plays a big roll in depression. The "I can't change" mantra. The passion surrounding powerlessness can be profound.
A 400 lb person has fallen in love with the sensation of self-soothing and self-care that eating provides. Notice an obese person overeats specific foods ("comfort food") Food itself is not the driving force.
This is why people often jump around to different addictions. The object of the addiction isn't the focus. The "addictive personality" isn't a character or genetic defect. It's a type of thinking disorder, fixating on feelings associated with the experience. People quit smoking and shift to over-eating and gain weight. ("Oral fixation" does not get to the heart of the matter.)
Most hard-core junkies would stop using for 12 days if they received a $5,000,000 cash reward for doing it. That many would use drugs on day 13 totally misses the point. Any junkie that stops for 12 days is certainly very much in control of their behavior and is making conscious decisions.
Between every behavioral urge and every action is a conscious decision.
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DividedQuantum
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Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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My brother was addicted to heroin for several years. (He's been sober now for about seven). He was in rehab for a stretch, and as I recall, there was never any suggestion that it wasn't the addict's responsibility to toughen up and quit. No one preached helplessness, and I fail to see how calling it a disease equates to that. For a lot of people, addiction can be extremely difficult, and some of you seem to be saying, aw, keep a stiff upper lip and be strong-willed. Nothing is so simple.
I will say eventually it was my brother and not his institutional help that got him off of the smack. It was the choice between homelessness and a life. He chose accordingly. Perhaps he wouldn't have if he weren't forced to. I don't know. I don't know whether the rehab helped him at all or not; we have never discussed it.
But this notion that free will can beat addiction is ridiculous in my opinion, for the vast majority. Most people aren't as enlightened as you, I guess.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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RJ Tubs 202


Registered: 09/20/08
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These claims are made by many people in many professional fields. They aren't my pipe dream.
There's a massive amount of information and research on this subject.
I've not implied quitting drugs is easy and haven't used the term "will power".
I have talked about whether "free will" (the ability to make decisions) can be destroyed.
I'm talking about the actual motivation and mechanism of the behavior. It's not often discussed.
12 Step philosophy is embraced by millions who claim they have a "lifetime disease".
Step #1 is to to admit, "I am powerless over alcohol and drugs". This topic is very relevant.
The "powerlessness" concept is one of the fastest growing cultural beliefs ever.
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falcon



Registered: 04/01/02
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I think most people would fall on the side that believes that habitual drug use that harms the user as a disease. This idea of addiction as a disease, I think, for most carries with it the axiom that it is out of your control.
I don't think that habitual drug abuse is easy to overcome for most without support, but I think the idea that addiction is a disease is not only untrue, it also masks the true nature of the situation.
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DividedQuantum
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Registered: 12/06/13
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I agree that positing powerlessness is unconstructive. On the other hand, I think some people, perhaps many people, may in fact be essentially powerless over the substances that are ruining their lives. There are many categories of people, and perhaps multiple categories of addiction as well.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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DividedQuantum
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Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: Addiction Theory [Re: falcon]
#23723769 - 10/09/16 09:40 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't agree that calling it a disease implies it is out of your control. Why? Diseases can be cured.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
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Having an opinion on drug addiction aside from scientists who study it if you're not a drug addict in recovery or active addiction is as meaningless as people who have an opinion on the psychedelic experience with out a proper trip.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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RJ Tubs 202


Registered: 09/20/08
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12 step philosophy (the foundation of most recovery programs), claims addiction is a "lifetime disease"
Anyone who claims they can defeat addiction is told, "Your disease is telling you that. Don't believe your stinkin thinkin"
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
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Dude I know. I'm a career drug addict been to rehab 3 times detox's twice 1 trip to the psych ward. I know about the 12 steps the 12 traditions the first 164 pages of the big book. I know AA/NA/ what ever A intimately.
What is your point?
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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RJ Tubs 202


Registered: 09/20/08
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Quote:
Cognitive_Shift said: Dude I know. I'm a career drug addict been to rehab 3 times detox's twice 1 trip to the psych ward. I know about the 12 steps the 12 traditions the first 164 pages of the big book. I know AA/NA/ what ever A intimately.
What is your point?
My post was not in response to you. (My comment was a reply to DividedQuantum, below)
Quote:
DividedQuantum said: I don't agree that calling it a disease implies it is out of your control. Why? Diseases can be cured.
Cognitive Shift, why do you call yourself a "career drug addict"?
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
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I'm clean now gonna have 90 days tomorrow but I call myself a career drug addict because previous this clean time I shot heroin for 8 years. Normal people don't shoot heroin for 8 years and I met every single one of the criteria in the DSM for chemical dependancy or drug addiction or what ever it is you choose to call it. There is a page in the NA book called "who is an addict." When I read that page I felt like it was written about me.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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How have you managed to stop?
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
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Detox rehab and attending AA meetings. I don't have a sponsor or do any step work but just going to the meetings and sharing if I feel like it does help,
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Good luck to you sir, and happy birthday!
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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RJ Tubs 202


Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,016
Loc: USA
Last seen: 17 hours, 8 minutes
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Quote:
Cognitive_Shift said:
Detox rehab and attending AA meetings. I don't have a sponsor or do any step work but just going to the meetings and sharing if I feel like it does help,
Great job!
Having a supportive community is very important. It's essential to have support.
Quote:
DividedQuantum said: I agree that positing powerlessness is unconstructive. On the other hand, I think some people, perhaps many people, may in fact be essentially powerless over the substances that are ruining their lives. There are many categories of people, and perhaps multiple categories of addiction as well.
Your first line says teaching "powerlessness" is unconstructive and then you say it might be true.
People often make relatively simple things very complex. When we look at the roots of our behavior and emotional disturbances, they aren't complex. Today it's common to say that there are a vast myriad of reasons for peoples depression, anxiety, rage, and addiction that there are as many categories of these experiences as people.
But psychoanalysts and behaviorists strongly disagree. Human struggles and misery have commonalities.
It's why methods such as CBT work well for depression and addiction. There are commonalities in causes and effects.
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