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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,810
How would you describe red to a blind man?
    #23714075 - 10/06/16 06:49 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I just think it's weird how we can assign a colour to emotions.
Red for rage, green for peace etc.

Maybe a consensus on the feelings of a colour could help to define a colour for a blind man?

This is how I would describe red.
Red is the rage you feel in anger.
Red is the love you feel for another.
What does red feel like?
You may choose 2


Votes accepted from (10/06/16 12:40 AM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineJaegar
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Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: sudly]
    #23715658 - 10/07/16 09:00 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Excep for the perceptual association why why they think differently.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: Jaegar]
    #23715685 - 10/07/16 09:10 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Certain reds symbolize passion to me, especially in the arts.  Certain blues have a wholistic feel...  Deep purple gives me a majestic feel... Silver is sexy to me.. Fuck if I know why though...


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Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: sudly]
    #23715692 - 10/07/16 09:12 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

How? the multiple choice does not include this:

"red surfaces have no textural differences from other surfaces but they reflect subtly warmer light than yellow or blue surfaces."

that should work, the amount of heat from the color can feed the blind imagination so that they can actually conceive very complex subtle heat vistas

you are pretty much guaranteed that blind people know what warm means


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Offlinebigdoodie
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Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23716683 - 10/07/16 03:15 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Color does not exist to a blind person.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,810
Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23716752 - 10/07/16 03:38 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I was thinking of something like red is the warmth of a fire but I didn't want to make a poll for the extra features of a colour although they would help in describing a colour to a blind man.

Maybe this isn't the right way to do it but I'm sure someone can make a poll like this with enough options to accurately describe the 'feeling' of a colour.


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OfflineHippocampus
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Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: sudly]
    #23718106 - 10/07/16 11:13 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

RGV has a good way to give a blind person an idea of what it's like. 

I would compare it to sound.  The wave nature of light and sound are very analogous. 

then I would explain that the analogy breaks down by asking them to imagine explaining sound to a deaf person.


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Offlinetump
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Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: Hippocampus]
    #23718475 - 10/08/16 05:35 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Red taste like Dayquil. Red sounds like babys crying. Red feels a warm wet mist on a windy day.


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Offlinesecondorder
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Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: tump] * 1
    #23718580 - 10/08/16 07:19 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

How would you describe red to a blind man?




How do you describe love to a psychopath? How does a human come to understand the sonar sensations that a bat experiences? How does a mantis shrimp (if it could talk) describe the colors only it can see, to we who are only tri-chromatic?

The answer is.....

It's impossible. It can't be done. There is no inherent connection between red and any emotion, and seeing as a blind person doesn't have a visual point of reference from which to extrapolate, the task is simply not possible. I don't mean that it's very difficult. I mean that it is literally impossible.
Think about it for a second; replacing yourself for the blind man, and replacing the sense of vision with one that you do not, and have never had.

What do the subjective differences between different electromagnetic fields feel like? Warm? Angry? Sharp? Do you seriously think that any of these English adjectives can give you even a hint of such an experience?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: secondorder]
    #23720179 - 10/08/16 05:44 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

you do not know blind people do you.
(unfortunate to compare them to psychopaths)


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #23720416 - 10/08/16 07:11 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Red can denote something good or bad. I remember a movie where the helpful male described to the blind female that red was hot like fire and placed a slightly too warm stone in her hand and played hot potato with her. Then he held it in their hands together and said that red could be warm. The he said blue was like water, ice and the sky and placed a chilled stone in her hand which he helped her warm with his. They go on to discover pink, but the point is we naturally develop color relationships and can pass that information on despite not being able to share the visual perception of light in the 600-700nm range. :naughty:


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Offlinesecondorder
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Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23720855 - 10/08/16 10:20 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

you do not know blind people do you.
(unfortunate to compare them to psychopaths)




I don't think you got my point. I was using the example of psychopaths because they are blind to love. I wasn't trying to suggest anything malicious about blind people by using this comparison. Psychopaths cannot feel love, and blind people can't see color. Why is that comparison unfortunate?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: secondorder]
    #23721293 - 10/09/16 06:09 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

it is unfortunate because it puts you in a position where you inadvertently insult all people with visual disabilities, and you do it with impunity - attempting to justify it.

It is also inaccurate because psychopaths have much more serious behavioral issues, and the term "love" is much more vague a concept than the color red.


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Offlinesecondorder
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Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23722974 - 10/09/16 05:33 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

it is unfortunate because it puts you in a position where you inadvertently insult all people with visual disabilities, and you do it with impunity - attempting to justify it.




Okay well I still can't see how I did, and am left puzzled by your reply, but to all those with visual disabilities who were insulted by my statements, I'm sorry, that wasn't my intention.


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: sudly]
    #23723078 - 10/09/16 06:12 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

The frequency of red, forty octaves down, is the note G. There is some evidence that we perceive colors differently...


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,810
Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: Middleman]
    #23723125 - 10/09/16 06:26 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Do you mean like converting light wave lengths into relative sound frequencies to 'describe' colours?

Pretty sure that's what Neil Harbisson did.




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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Edited by sudly (10/09/16 06:32 PM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: sudly]
    #23729096 - 10/11/16 06:36 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
I just think it's weird how we can assign a colour to emotions.
Red for rage, green for peace etc.

Maybe a consensus on the feelings of a colour could help to define a colour for a blind man?

This is how I would describe red.
Red is the rage you feel in anger.
Red is the love you feel for another.





as you like precision, consider that actually the sensation of red is not an emotional feeling--the emotional feeling is , in this case an association - to an emotion, but not the sensation

secondly a description or definition, is a conceptualization, or an abstraction, not an experience ... so it makes no difference how clever, or how poetic, or whatever you consider wonderful, - the description is - it can never actually equal experiencing.

hence no one wastes their time explaining orgasms to children, in fact doing so would tread a fine line between being considered a nerd and a pervert.

there are many subtleties to color, - check out: 'color relativity', Joseph Albers, simultaneous contrast, color constancy, etc - no definition will enable a blind person to 'grok' this stuff ...


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: laughingdog]
    #23729131 - 10/11/16 06:46 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

There is no actual sensation of red.
My intent was to associate an emotion with a colour based on individual opinion.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: sudly]
    #23729196 - 10/11/16 07:04 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
There is no actual sensation of red.
My intent was to associate an emotion with a colour based on individual opinion.




perhaps what is undefined here is the word "actual".

Contrast, value, chroma, hue, simultaneous contrast, color relativity, & color constancy are observable phenomenon, that separate observers agree upon.

Of course we agree that actual atoms may be smaller than the wave lengths of light, so objective color of the external world  maybe in some sense illusory, but that animal nervous systems make distinctions is also accepted fact. For instances bees detect ultraviolet, etc. Fishes see color, whereas dogs may not, etc.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,810
Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: laughingdog]
    #23729205 - 10/11/16 07:08 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I agree that we can observe the colour of red in nature but I would call that an observation of colour rather than a sensation of colour.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: sudly]
    #23729327 - 10/11/16 07:57 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

would not the observation of color be a concept after the sensing, by an observer process, i.e. self or mind?


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23730030 - 10/12/16 12:22 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I wouldn't say so because specific colours have specific wavelengths.
Although in a way I guess you are sensing the colour with your eyes too.


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Invisiblephio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: sudly]
    #23730065 - 10/12/16 12:58 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Technical :
Color
A specific frequency of occurrence...
Something coming into and out of 'existence' at a certain rate which takes on certain Qualia that you can make subjective associations with.

Non-Technical :
Vision
Vision is just another vista of energy which, like sound, has a palette of frequency (occurrence). Essentially, the world takes on a characteristic in which it is 'painted' (draped) in sound.

Red
Warmth .. an experience that distinctly stands out from the highs, lows, and seems to constructively envelop both.


Edited by phio (10/12/16 01:05 AM)


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,810
Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: phio]
    #23730076 - 10/12/16 01:10 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Colour doesn't come into or out of existence, different colours of the rainbow are different frequencies of white light coming from the Sun.

Vision is the processing of frequencies of light whereas sounds is the processing of pressure waves, they're not the same thing.

Red and warmth sounds good. :thumbup:


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Invisiblephio


Registered: 10/07/16
Posts: 369
Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: sudly]
    #23730092 - 10/12/16 01:27 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Colour doesn't come into or out of existence, different colours of the rainbow are different frequencies of white light coming from the Sun.

Vision is the processing of frequencies of light whereas sounds is the processing of pressure waves, they're not the same thing.





You asked how to explain red/vision/color to a blind person, the descriptive association with sound and things they can perceive are to help facilitate that explanation.

Relax Sudly.. A discussion of the true nature of reality would blow your top off as would Gamma rays....
:nicesmile:


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: phio]
    #23730105 - 10/12/16 01:36 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I don't disagree with that.
Ecology was pretty good at exposing me to the true nature of reality.


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OfflineHippocampus
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Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: sudly]
    #23731179 - 10/12/16 12:52 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Sometimes I wonder if other people see colors differently than me.  What if, what looks like red to me looks like yellow through their eyes?


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Invisiblephio


Registered: 10/07/16
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Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: Hippocampus]
    #23731403 - 10/12/16 02:16 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Hippocampus said:
Sometimes I wonder if other people see colors differently than me.  What if, what looks like red to me looks like yellow through their eyes?




Yep. Some also see a wider range of color perception :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrachromacy#Humans

All has to do w/ the sensory receptors. Some have more than others. Some are tuned different than others. Some see in black and white. Some have color blindness.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photopsin

Not everyone is the same. One should not expect them to be given the complexities that go into color sensing. Subjective experience  :laugh:


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: phio]
    #23731694 - 10/12/16 04:04 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

People can perceive colours differently because the light receptors in their eyes are damaged but for those with working eyes, the colour of light is the same.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: sudly]
    #23731794 - 10/12/16 04:39 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

how can you be certain that non-color blind people all see each color the same way?


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23731832 - 10/12/16 04:54 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

People don't see light the same way but the light itself doesn't change, only the condition of an individuals retina changes.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: sudly]
    #23732140 - 10/12/16 06:38 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

retina is part of it, much more of it in cerebral cortex as you know, and it has tremendous variability and plasticity as well as memory.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23732211 - 10/12/16 07:10 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

It seems we agree that perception of colour is defined by individual anatomy.

This doesn't bode well for the blind man.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: sudly]
    #23732254 - 10/12/16 07:29 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I never declared that perception is defined by anatomy, but sensation is directly connected from the senses into the brain, with anatomical locations.
how we perceive sensations (visual or otherwise) is related to what has gone before, memory and state of mind.

memory also uses anatomical locations in the brain's anatomy,
and state of mind has to do with the amount of resonance at activated locations in the brain.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,810
Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23732331 - 10/12/16 08:04 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I don't know how a mental state could effect vision and it's not something I can speculate on.

I guess someone could vividly visualise their imagination but I wouldn't call that visual in the sense of actually seeing anything real.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: sudly]
    #23732414 - 10/12/16 08:37 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
I don't know how a mental state could effect vision and it's not something I can speculate on.

I guess someone could vividly visualise their imagination but I wouldn't call that visual in the sense of actually seeing anything real.




the mental state from lsd or marijuana affects vision quite a bit, even before hallucination begins, and imagination, as mental activity also is affected, enhanced, extended. similar effects happen when emerging from sleep, when emotional, or from meditation/concentration; all of which directly affect the mental state, or overall resonance in the brain.


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Offlinedoomshroom88
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Re: How would you describe red to a blind man? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23732507 - 10/12/16 09:08 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

warm, bright. like cherries taste


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